Looking for someone who has done this conversion to their
Chevelle. How did work out. I spoke to Hotrodstohell on the phone and they told me no bump steer. Is this better than a B body spindal?
http://www.hotrodstohell.net/front_suspension/kits/index.htm

f body and b body spindle swap the same.all f body and early b body spindles both use 11" rotors and are the same height. Some late b bodies use the 12" rotor that is the only difference. As far as bump steer they spindles use the same length steering arm so there is no diff there. Some have a bad time with bump steer some don't, some don't know they have it :D

Curious if any vendor actually hooked up their tall spindle conversion to a bumpsteer gauge and published the findings. Wouldn't geometry finally resolve this unknown?

Same as a B-body swap, isn't it. I'd want to use the B-body spindles with the 12" rotors. If you're going to spend the cash might as well get as much brake as you can.

Personally, looking at the suspension, I suspect that in most cases the bump steer is no worse than before. If it's worse, I'd think it's mostly when cornering and not when going straight. I'm with Drifter, if you have measurements then I'd like to see them. I don't have the proper equipment but I'm still going to try to perform some type of measurement on the frame I'm working on.

What's the price of that package? I have a Word file detailing all the parts required for a B-Body swap. You still need the upper arms and machined lower ball joints.

Peter

Peter the price for the kit is $1,795.00 and it includes all parts listed. Would these spindal extenders be a better solution?http://www.pro-motorsports.com I will call them tommorrow and see if you need to go with new tubular A-arm or if you can use the stock set up. If any on here has done the spindal extender please let us know what happen.

HTH front kit seems expensive. Check out Global West.

Here (http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/Bump_Steer.htm) is my preliminary bump steer results from my Chevelle. I will have my front suspension complete soon and I can get some more concrete numbers.

RJ,

You don't happen to have any data on the Bump steer for the stock spindle, do you? just for comparison...

No. I really wish I did. If anyone is interested in preforming a bump steer test on there stock front suspension, I will send you my home made gauge. It requires the springs and shocks to be removed. I would be more than happy to help someone throught the process. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Yes, that seems expensive to me too. Not that they don't have good stuff, it just seems they are really really proud of it.

Upper arms can be had at Spartan Rod Works (http://www.westcentralauto.com/chevelle.htm) for $349 a pair. You should be able to get the rest of the parts for no more than $600 which includes all new calipers, rotors, ball joints, bearings, bushings and the complete steering linkage. Basically every replaceable part in the front end.

The only other parts I don't exactly know about are the springs and shocks. Hotchkis (http://www.hotchkis.net) has front 1" drop springs for $142 a pair and I wouldn't think that performance shocks would be any more than $50 to $75 each.

The other main place for front end parts is Global West (http://www.globalwest.net) .

The conversion is supposed to be doable by using the stock upper arms and the "problem solver" offset control arm shafts that are meant to allow for more camber adjustment. I haven't seen pictures but I've read about it being done.

RJ, is that degrees or inches of bumpsteer?

Peter

Sorry about that, it is inches. And just so everyone knows I went from upper stop to lower stop, I don't think that you will be able to be at 4.5" of bump very often.

How exactly is toe measured in inches?

I understand the degree measurement, and know that the inch measurement is front distance minus back (or v.v.), but how far off the spindle (front ways and back ways) do you take the distance measurements?

for instance, if you measure distance between the tires on the front side and then the back side, you would get different distances depending on the diameter of the tires.

Hello,

I have a few questions after looking at the bump steer chart that is posted. Does the '+' numbers on the left of the chart (suspension travel) mean suspension compression and the '-' numbers mean suspension extension or is it the other way around? Do the numbers in reference to the bump toe out refer to degrees or is it in inches?

THank you,
Kevin C

RJ Do you have to run 16" wheels using the 12" vett rotors and the JD7 calipers?
I would like to do my Chevelle brakes like you but I have 15" Welds not ready to change those to 16" yet.
Thanks
Ps Cool pictures in your site.

Originally posted by cperrell:
for instance, if you measure distance between the tires on the front side and then the back side, you would get different distances depending on the diameter of the tires. Yes. The numbers that I have posted are for my car with my gauge (Aluminum plate and Dial indicators). If I took the measurements close to the center of the hub, the numbers would be less. The numbers will be used for comparison when I work to reduce the bump steer. When I measure in the same location and the numbers get smaller, I am doing better, if the get larger, I am doing worse.

Kevin,

Yes the + numbers are in compression and the - are in rebound.

540,
Thanks. And yes 15" should work. I have 15" Rallies on it now.

So what is the seperation distance between the two dial indicators? Then we could figure-out the magnitude of the angle change? For instance...if the dial indicators are 12" apart and your maximum toe-change is 0.515" then that is approximately 2.5°. If the dial indicators are only 6" apart then the max change is approximately 5°.

I have a question about the spindles and hubs as well. I recently picked-up a set of spindles off of a 1986 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham that had 12" rotors. I also picked up a set of 1985 Camaro rotors. My questions about this are: The Cadillac spindles are the right ones correct? The Camaro rotors are the right ones for the higher offset hub (more inboard mounting surface) and have the 0.85" ID outer bearing that will fit on the Cadillac spindle, correct?

Originally posted by ehjorten:
My questions about this are: The Cadillac spindles are the right ones correct? The Camaro rotors are the right ones for the higher offset hub (more inboard mounting surface) and have the 0.85" ID outer bearing that will fit on the Cadillac spindle, correct? Yes, you are correct. Use the A34 inner F-body bearing and you'll be good to go.

Joe

Originally posted by '540 Chevell:
RJ Do you have to run 16" wheels using the 12" vett rotors and the JD7 calipers?I wouldn't think so. Get me your e-mail address and I'll send you a Word file with a bunch of good info on this type of swap. If you use 1LE Camaro rotors you get almost the same thing. They are also 12" rotors but are only 1" thick instead of 1.25". You then just use a standard caliper.

I have the Corvette rotors and matching calipers on an Impala and they clear the 15" wheel fine. The JD7 calipers are the same as I have but with a bigger piston.

Peter

-

Peter my e-mail is kensho@bellsouth.net.thanks

The file is on its way.

Peter

Don't know if I missed it but if you switch to the tall 11" rotor spindles can you use the rotor and calipers that you already have from the A body?

You can use the caliper no problem with either the 11" or 12" rotors.

I don't know about the rotors. I've don't recall reading anything about doing that. It may be possible if you get an older spindle with the A2 outer bearing.

Peter

airrj;

Could you provide the seperation distance or distance from the spindle centre to where you measured the bump steer?

Peter

I'll have it for you in the AM.

Well, in the AM or 5 days later, I was close... graemlins/clonk.gif

Sorry about that Peter. To answer your question, the seperation distance is 16.5 inches.

Hope this helps.

R.J.

R.J.

Have you looked at lowering the bumpsteer yet?

Did you see it change to toe out in both compression and rebound. To me, if I start at full compression it just continually toes in as I go to full rebound (full extension). I'll have to measure more carefully.

At any rate, the B-body spindles lower the outer tie rod end so lowering the inner tie rod end should compensate for most of the problems. I've been experimenting by rotating the box and idler on their top bolts and I have the bump steer down to < 1/8" from 1" rebound to 3" of compression. I'll have to make or borrow a proper test jig and then try to get it as good as possible. Then, I'll drill new holes and hope I can make the steering line up.

If there is an adjustable stock car type center link for a Chevelle it'd make a good candidate for an upgraded steering system. Like this one. (http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp4.htm) You put in bushings to move the inner tie rod ends.

For anyone interested, HERE (http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/longtech3.htm) is a good link to a bump steer description with a picture showing how the steering should be configured.

Peter

I haven't spent too much time with this yet as I am still collecting parts but if the spindles lower the outer tie rod why can't you ream the top of the spindle to accept the tie rod from the top and turn it over-that should give you at least an inch of that lost height back. I realize it may require some time at the parts store to try and find a tie rod end that will fit the newly modified hole in the spindle, and then there is the sway bar issue but I'm just thinking out loud.

Peter,

No I haven't work on the bump steer issue at all yet. :( Hopefully this summer will be better for me. As far as fixing the bumpsteer it looks to me (just from all of the info that I have read) that the problem is a combination of the outer tie rod end is to low and the tie rod is too long.

You could raise the outer point or as you are trying to do, lower the inner. And then the inner pivot will likely need to wider to shorten the tie rod. I did see a photo on the web at on point of a custom center link where they welded new inner tie rod mounts to the back of the centerlink so the stud of the tie rod ends was vertical instead of horizontal. This way they could shim the inner's downward.

Checkout this thread (http://p067.ezboard.com/fprotouringgmachinesfrm10.showMessage?topicID=3245 .topic) at Pro-Touring.com. You will need to scroll down a ways to find a post from Katz. He is a chassis builder and he layed out exactly how to fix up the bump steer. Also, I have to older articles from Circle Track magazine on Bump Steer. If you are interested in them I could send them to you.

Dennis,

I thought of the same thing at one time, but I think there are a few problems with that: First I believe that the tie rod would be too high at this point and would hit the bottom of the frame rail in bump, and Second I would suspect that it would be to large of a change to the height and there would still be little adjustability.

Either way guys keep up posted on your progress. I am very interested. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

R.J.

The tie rod end doesn't lower enough to do that Dennis. It would put the end way to high then. The tie rod end drops about 1/2".

I generally understand what Katz is suggesting but it's a matter of getting the most for the least work to me. I don't want to bend the arms on the spindles and fabricate a custom center link if I can help it. So, I'm going to lower the center link and see what I get. If it's till too bad then I'll do further work. It's only about 1/2" drop so I believe I can even make the stock steering shaft and coupler work if I clearance the frame to fit it.

I actually don't understand Katz reasoning for suggesting the inner tie rod end has to move out a bunch. I'm also lost as to how the Baer Tracker kits are supposed to be able to raise the outer tie rod end because the arm is where the tie rod needs to be. I guess I'd need to bend the arms up and then use those kits to get the tie rod where I want it.

Peter

Originally posted by 70 Elco Joe:
Don't know if I missed it but if you switch to the tall 11" rotor spindles can you use the rotor and calipers that you already have from the A body? I'm doing a 4 wheel disc swap onto my friend's '69 Firebird right now, using my old '72 Chevelle spindles, with his drum brake steering arms bolted on. I found the answer to your question last night, as I had bought fresh rotors and loaded calipers a few years back for the El Camino. Found out yesterday they weren't the right ones. The calipers worked fine, it's the rotors that are at issue. They sold me some rotors that will fit '70-78 F-bodies, '73-77 A-bodies, and most of the GM clones between them. The F-body rotors are taller, to match the longer spindle. There is also a different backspacing, like 1/2" or so on the braking portion of the rotor, not sure if it's different on the wheel mount surface.

I do have some '80 Trans Am spindles for my El Camino, so hopefully these rotors will work on them. They're not listed, but physically, I can't see the difference. It might be in the bearings used, don't know until I disassemble the TA spindles. The calipers should work too, look the same between them all.

Originally posted by Peter F.:
I actually don't understand Katz reasoning for suggesting the inner tie rod end has to move out a bunch. I'm also lost as to how the Baer Tracker kits are supposed to be able to raise the outer tie rod end because the arm is where the tie rod needs to be. I guess I'd need to bend the arms up and then use those kits to get the tie rod where I want it.

Peter I agree. I don't see how those Bear trackers are going to work much. I can see how they might be able to raise the outer tie rod up some, sice the heim joint on the tie rod will be thinner then stock tie rod head. Not sure if it'd be enough to change much though.

As far as using shorter tie rods. That's pretty much irrelevant until someone makes a new drag ling.

I have seen a Baer Tracker kit before and I do think that it would raise the tie rod some, but it would be a minimal amount. Basically the Heim Joint ball is smaller the the ball of the stock tie rod end and the stud that goes into the spindle is shorter than the stock tie rod. So the pivot point could be raised maybe 1/4" to 5/16" (and I am just guessing at those numbers).

Peter,

Also checkout this. (http://www.howeracing.com/Steering/Index-Steering-Centerlinks.htm) It looks like it might be what we are looking for.

Here's Speedway motors set up, basically the same as Baers, but much cheaper.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eCCStoreFront/smi/product_images//Full/91636055_1.jpg

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eCCStoreFront/smi/product_images//Full/91032800.jpg

Speedways adaptor stud (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/product.ASP?wc=true&strBase_List=&hilt=&source=2191&base_no=91636055&str_base_no=000%2DCATALOG+RACE%2C1170808L%2C175010 0STD%2C1750310%2C1750326%2C1750705%2C1756041%2C315 9604%2C5464108%2C91001500%2C91002090%2C91002326%2C 91034134%2C91034158%2C91034212%2C91034234%2C910342 58%2C91636055%2C&header_title=Race+Products%2DRod+Ends+%26+Sleeves&page_name=prod%5Flist%5Fdisplay%2Easp&search_type=L1%7E105&search_option=&deptsearch=&dept_id=L1%7E105&dept_id_p=&dept_name=&dept_name_p=Race+Products&ShowImages=yes&sq=0&cont=1&intPgNo=1&redirect=)

RJ;

I'm going to check into the price for the center link. It would likely be easier to use than trying to lower the stock center link. If it's expensive I'm going to slot the bottom holes for the box mount and see how that works. It only needs to move about 2/3 of the hole width. I'll look at the spacers inside the frame and see what can be done to allow it to move.

Mark;

Looking at the end kit, the only way to put it to use would be to bend up the arms on the spindles and then use that kit to fine tune the bump steer.

Peter

Originally posted by Peter F.:
RJ;

I'm going to check into the price for the center link. It would likely be easier to use than trying to lower the stock center link. If it's expensive I'm going to slot the bottom holes for the box mount and see how that works. It only needs to move about 2/3 of the hole width. I'll look at the spacers inside the frame and see what can be done to allow it to move.

Mark;

Looking at the end kit, the only way to put it to use would be to bend up the arms on the spindles and then use that kit to fine tune the bump steer.

Peter Peter-I got my tie rod assemblies from Speedway, what a great bunch of guys to do business with. Have you looked into the Howe drag link yet-I cannot find anyone who sells it and Howe isn't returning emails?

Yes, $167 from www.performancedepot.com (http://www.performancedepot.com) Just search for part number 23397. Unfortunately, that comes to $265 Canadian for me which is getting quite pricy.

I already slotted the upper hole for the idler arm so I can easily move it and then drill a new lower hole when I find the right spot for it. I still haven't fully figured out the gearbox but I think I'll just slot the bottom holes so it can rotate down a bit. I've got to borrow or build something to accurately measure the bumpsteer first.

Will those Speedway tie rod ends allow for the proper adjustment? Right now I don't see how since the inner had to go down about 1/2" so the outer would have to go up by about 1/2" but the steering arm is in the way. If you bolt the heim joint right against the steering arm you may get it. I can't see it working with the studs like Mark posted.

Peter

You're right Peter, they will not correct it, but in conjunction with the Howe center link you could fine tune the bump steer out. I was actually more interested in the heim joints for outers to further stiffen the front steering/suspension(running tall spindle/C5 brakes/tubular UCA/700lbs front coils). The parts are real nice-top notch company-I had a "bugger" in one of the tubes and tried to force the outer end in anyways-it jammed in there and they sent all new stuff 2nd day air-no charge.

I guess so. The Howe link does allow the ends to be moved up and down so it could fix the bumpsteer by itself. There are shims you need to buy along with the link to do the adjustments.

It's good to hear that Speedway treats it's customers right.

Peter

Has anyone tried bolting all this stuff together? It seems to me like it would work quite well. What length tie rod ends (from Speedway) need to be purchased to fit up the B/F body spindles?

Ryan

I bought 18.5" tierods assemblies. If they are short you can always buy just the longer sleeves for 9.00/ea. I haven't finished yet so I can't tell if it will all bolt together, spindles are at machine shop getting upper hole reamed for oversize ball joints. When I get everything back I'll take a group pic with everything and post part numbers.

With that Speedway Motors setup you will definitely want to purchase a set of Heim joint captivating washers! You don't want that ball coming out of the body and the tie-rod dropping out. It also looks very flimsy with the long bolt in bending.

Oh hell no, that bolt is 5/8" grade 8. No way it is bending, break on impact maybe. I agree washer would be good insurance but not nesessary as the end isn't going to slip off the ball any more than a tie rod ball would slip out of a socket.

Be careful Dennis. The joint isn't lubed and it will wear out quicker than a ball joint. Most drag tracks (or maybe just NHRA?) require captured heim joints in the suspension so it must be an issue. The ball in that joint is not as well retained as a standard balljoint. Just put a big washer between the joint and the lower nut for insurance.

Peter

With the adjustable center link, wouldn't it still be possible to use stock inner and outer tie rods (ie. the outer tie rods for a '84 Regal)?

I like the looks of the heim joint, but thinking about it, I would be concerned with wear and tear, especially when there is rain/dust/etc.

I would think so.

Peter