http://www.holley.com/HolleyEFIBrochure/

Looks like the same old stuff, what did they change?

I see the new touch screen unit.

YouTube- SEMA 2009: Holley's New EFI Systems V8TV

Looks like the same old stuff, what did they change?

I see the new touch screen unit.

Compared to their old Commander 950:

Sequential fueling
DIS
LS motor compatibility
Self-learning
USB link (old one was RS-232)
Control of automatic trannies.

And probably some more stuff I'm missing. Not sure I'd say they are now the leader of the pack, but Holley has now caught up. The pricing will be interesting. If they can keep the pricing close to the C950 systems I think they have something here.

I like the features, cop iginition capability, sequential injection, individual cylinder tuning,

but I bet it will be EXPENSIVE

According to the brochure, the Avenger won't go over 600hp. Then you go up one level to the HP, and it doesn't come with injectors or fuel pump.

Pricing will be important. I'll have to use the HP because I will be right around 600hp, and the HP probably won't be cheap. I hope these systems don't replace the C950 because the HP will probably be a lot more, but I guess I can wait for the pricing.

Hey guys. Just got back real late last night from SEMA. Had a great show with tons of interest. Although the TBI and MPFI hardware hasn't been updated, the ECUs are brand new ground up.

The features are more than about any system out there. The pricing WILL be very favorable.

The Dominator unit will be priced around a FAST, but can:
- Plug and Play with LSx engines
- Run 3 sets of low imp injectors
- DIS ignition
- Dual channel WBO2
- Self tune fuel map
- Electronic Trans Control
- Drive By Wire Control (very cool) Can run 2 even
- 2 GB on board logging
- 4 stage nitous (progressive and dry)
- Boost control
- Incredibly accurate Water Meth injection
- More user programmable inputs and outputs than any human can use
- Excellent idle and closed loop control
- More....

Plus an optional 5.7" full color Touch Screen LCD that can do all tuning and eliminate the need for a laptop, plus programmable gauges that can show any input sensor.

We are also offering our own DIS coils, trigger wheels and hardward to support the WM and Boost Control, tranducers, etc.

The HP can do all that but can't do trans or DBW and has a limit of 4 inputs and 4 outputs and is single channel WB02.

If that doesn't leap frog most systems tell me what we missed!

If that doesn't leap frog most systems tell me what we missed!

Bluetooth so you can mount the ECU anywhere and don't have to connect a cable to handheld/laptop.

Open source SW to allow a user community to extend the SW.

How about the tuning SW? Will it run on anything but Windows?

You asked. :)

Don't get me wrong though. I like what I've seen so far.

What about a CAN interface? Will it work with after market data aq systems?

Ron

Bluetooth so you can mount the ECU anywhere and don't have to connect a cable to handheld/laptop.

Open source SW to allow a user community to extend the SW.

How about the tuning SW? Will it run on anything but Windows?

You asked. :)

Don't get me wrong though. I like what I've seen so far.

Wireless and Drive by Wire is something I didn't want to tackle...
Gotta please Bill Gates....
After going through this development, having open source is something a manufacturer would be risky to do. However I think you'll find what you have is quite substantial...

Doing what was done was a monstrous amount of work and doing more would have been impossible.

What about a CAN interface? Will it work with after market data aq systems?

Ron

The Dominator EFI has enough extra inputs to be its own data aq system.

That being said there has been discussions about CAN interfaces with other data aq systems and I'd like for that to occur.

Quick question on the timing control. If you're not running the full DIS system you still control timing curve through the ecu correct? Just confused at the one line in the DIS page of the brochure it says adding the DIS system allows control of timing within the system rather than relying on external control box.

I would like to see more info on the crank trigger wheel and DIS coil setup. How does the wheel mount exactly? Does it require a specific damper? Will it come with a plug and oil pump drive? Option for dual sync?

I have a laptop already but I would be interested in the touch screen to use as a gauge panel. Will it accept any standard sender as an input? I'm thinking a couple fuel pressure senders and whatnot would be cool depending on price.

Very interested in the HP system as long as the shipping in Jan/Feb is realistic. I don't want to hold off for this and then be stuck scrambling to get something together by spring. I assume the HP will be available piece by piece? I already have a complete fuel system minus rails and injectors so I don't want to be stuck buying another pump and lineset or something.

Quick question on the timing control. If you're not running the full DIS system you still control timing curve through the ecu correct? Just confused at the one line in the DIS page of the brochure it says adding the DIS system allows control of timing within the system rather than relying on external control box.


>Yes, you can control through all normal methods, HEI, Mag pickup, etc.

I would like to see more info on the crank trigger wheel and DIS coil setup. How does the wheel mount exactly? Does it require a specific damper? Will it come with a plug and oil pump drive? Option for dual sync?

>> There is a 60-2 1/8" thick steel (8" diameter) trigger wheel that is mounted on the front of the engine (off the balancer it is intended). There is a kit that will allow it to be installed on a SB or BBC engine with the only mods needing to be that you move the accessories out 1/8". I have it on my BBC. THere is a cam sync "plug" that GM sells that most people use (i do) that someone reproduces now as well. You could just use a regular distributor with one reluctor tooth (system can read a hall or mag cam input). Holley doesn't sell any "distributors", but anyones can be configured. You wouldn't have to use the 60-2 wheel and could use just a dual sync distributor with the DIS, but you'd lose the stability that wheel gives. It is a waste fire system. (twin tower coils).

I have a laptop already but I would be interested in the touch screen to use as a gauge panel. Will it accept any standard sender as an input? I'm thinking a couple fuel pressure senders and whatnot would be cool depending on price.

>> The system has fuel and oil pressure as standard inputs. Holley sells the plug and play transducers. However, you can use any sensor you want, as you can input custom calibrations from any sensor that is 0-5v, 0-20v, thermistor, or a digital or inductive speed input.

Very interested in the HP system as long as the shipping in Jan/Feb is realistic. I don't want to hold off for this and then be stuck scrambling to get something together by spring. I assume the HP will be available piece by piece? I already have a complete fuel system minus rails and injectors so I don't want to be stuck buying another pump and lineset or something.

>> It will be available piece by piece. The HP is intended to be available in later Feb. Dominator first. I do not like giving dates out to people that "have to have it" by then as you never know what may happen. 90% of the work is done, but you never know, so I couldn't "promise" it. That would have to be an individual's call. Be end of Dec, I should have a 99% feel of where things will be for product shipments.

how much is the basic TBI setup?

Thanks for the info! I totally understand not being able to guarantee the dates...waiting until the new year to know for sure is no problem.

You only need the cam sync signal if you want to run sequential injection correct? You could then add coil per cylinder and run sequential ignition as well?

Sorry for all the questions.

how much is the basic TBI setup?

The Avenger 4bbl TBI which includes a fuel pump and the handheld controller (eliminates the need for a laptop) will be around $1999 retail. The HP 4bbl TBI which is laptop programmable and does not come with a fuel pump will be around $1800-1850 I believe. Both include integrated WB02 and have self tuning fuel tables. Both are with all sensors, harnesses etc.

The Avenger can actually be laptop tuned with a $5 usb cable and free software downloaded if ever desired.

Thanks for the info! I totally understand not being able to guarantee the dates...waiting until the new year to know for sure is no problem.

You only need the cam sync signal if you want to run sequential injection correct? You could then add coil per cylinder and run sequential ignition as well?

Sorry for all the questions.

Yes, only need a cam sync if you want timed sequential fueling. You can run the Holley waste fire DIS without a cam sync actually if you use the 60-2 crank wheel.

No problem on the questions!

These systems have a ton of features, so many I forget some of them myself!

Awesome features built in to one unit. Very cool. I missed it by a few months as I already bought into FAST. I am hoping to build my own screen, but it won't be touch screen, and it won't be that cool. :(

EFI is only getting easier - buy in before you get labeled a follower! :D

The Holley HP system doesn't come with injectors, and Holley’s 42 lb/hr #522-4208 fuel injectors are $700. I don’t want to spend $3K for fuel injection and then buy junk injectors at a low cost to save money. What are some lower cost alternatives? How would I know a good value injector?

Are low impedance injectors better than high impedance?

What are other manufacturers using in their complete kits? I’m assuming they include injectors.

The Holley HP system doesn't come with injectors, and Holley’s 42 lb/hr #522-4208 fuel injectors are $700. I don’t want to spend $3K for fuel injection and then buy junk injectors at a low cost to save money. What are some lower cost alternatives? How would I know a good value injector?

Are low impedance injectors better than high impedance?

What are other manufacturers using in their complete kits? I’m assuming they include injectors.

We are coming out with new MPFI injectors. The PNs are on the back of the brochure (not available yet, but will be with the new systems). They will be much less than even half of the current ones and are a very nice injector.

Thanks Doug.

Holley's C950 BBC 670hp calls for 42 lb/hr injectors, the Avenger kit has 48 lb/hr but limits hp to 600. Are there other factors that determine hp levels and injector sizing, or is Holley leaving a little room for growth on the Avenger?

Are the auto-tune routines good enough that you don’t have to tweak them with a laptop, or should we look to be sure that it is doing what it is supposed to? Plus, if you change a setting manually, will the auto-tune software change it back?

Thanks Doug.

Holley's C950 BBC 670hp calls for 42 lb/hr injectors, the Avenger kit has 48 lb/hr but limits hp to 600. Are there other factors that determine hp levels and injector sizing, or is Holley leaving a little room for growth on the Avenger?

Are the auto-tune routines good enough that you don’t have to tweak them with a laptop, or should we look to be sure that it is doing what it is supposed to? Plus, if you change a setting manually, will the auto-tune software change it back?

The 600 HP is conservative regarding the injectors. More than 600 HP usually means a more radical engine and "600HP" just tries to put some constraints on such engines.

The autotuning is working very well. You don't have to use a laptop. The area fine tuning could help is in idle when doing the last "10%", but you don't have to.

The autotune can be enabled and disabled, as well as slowed down or sped up, so there is a lot of control/options there.

The "Avenger" kits are intended to not be laptop programmable. You CAN laptop tune them if you want though, but that typical customer wants nothing to do with a laptop. If you want to laptop tune, the HP systems would be what you want to get.

Oh man this leans me much farther toward EFI. This is right up my alley for all of the reasons that Doug mentions and it removes a good deal of my reservations about EFI swaps.

I am really digging what I see so far. Have a while yet before I have to make the choice of EFI vs carb but this system has brought the EFI up a bit for me.

Way cool for guys like me.

Do I have this right? Auto tuning on the HP version AND the ability to add a power adder? (I understand the 4in/4out limitation)

Do I have this right? Auto tuning on the HP version AND the ability to add a power adder? (I understand the 4in/4out limitation)

All the systems have an "auto tuning" fuel table. You can still laptop tune it if desired, but after you get used to the autotuning, most if not all would be done that way. The HP allows for everything to be laptop programmable. The "Avenger" has a handheld tuner that allows for a moderate of changes ("more or less" type changes rather than full tables on the laptop software).

Yes, you can add multiple power adder controls on the HP with the limitation of having 4 inputs and 4 outputs to support those. The Dominator has a ton of I/O if more are needed.

The 600 HP is conservative regarding the injectors. More than 600 HP usually means a more radical engine and "600HP" just tries to put some constraints on such engines.

How do you determine injector size?

Is low impedance better/worse than high impedance?

How do you determine injector size?

Is low impedance better/worse than high impedance?

The rough formula is (Flywheel HP) x (BSFC) / (8) x (.8)

BSFC is brake specific fuel consumption. .5 is a decent guess. The .8 is 80% duty cycle.

That would be a minium recommended size. Bigger is ok.

Larger injectors are usually low impedence. The are usually "better" in that they open a bit quicker, but not a huge deal.

How do you determine injector size?

Is low impedance better/worse than high impedance?

Low impedance injectors are peak and hold type. The ecu send out voltage to the injector until a determined current is reached and holds it. High impedance injectors are saturated type. The ecu sends the same voltage no matter the demand of the injector then cuts the voltage off. Peak and hold are better for performance but they do generate more heat and typically have a shorter life, with the miles that most of our cars see, that isn't too big of a factor. Also, up until recently, if you wanted higher flow rates you HAD to go with a low impedance. I have seen some high impedance that actually have relatively high flow rates.

The 600 HP is conservative regarding the injectors. More than 600 HP usually means a more radical engine and "600HP" just tries to put some constraints on such engines.

The autotuning is working very well. You don't have to use a laptop. The area fine tuning could help is in idle when doing the last "10%", but you don't have to.

The autotune can be enabled and disabled, as well as slowed down or sped up, so there is a lot of control/options there.

The "Avenger" kits are intended to not be laptop programmable. You CAN laptop tune them if you want though, but that typical customer wants nothing to do with a laptop. If you want to laptop tune, the HP systems would be what you want to get.
Doug
in my situation where at see level I was pushing 650+ but up here in themountians Iam only makeing maybe 480-500 would the avenger be a good place to start? not that I dont mind laptop tunning but I am tired of tunning my car. I thinking of just going N/A all the time and whatever it runs it runs in the 1/4. no more well if i rejet and spray X amount I can hit 9.99 and still be legal games. Iam not licensed if you couldnt tell.

How do you determine injector size?

Is low impedance better/worse than high impedance?

Edelbrock says how much HP an injector can support is dependant on fuel pressure as well as flow rate.

If you want to know how much HP an injector can support,here is the formula for figuring that out.

((Injector flow rate in lb/hr X # of injectors) / Break Specific Fuel Consumption) X Maximum duty cycle of injector

so, if you have a 44 lb/hr injector on a V8 that will make a .5 BSFC and you want a maximum of 85% duty cycle (this in how long the injector is spraying fuel per cycle. 85% is a good baseline) here is the results;

44 X 8 = 352, 352 / .50 = 704, 704 x .85 = 598.4 HP.

Our injector flow values are based on a 43.5 psi fuel pressure. If you change the fuel pressure, you will need to know the new flow rate to make the formula work.

Formula for injector flow vs. pressure;

(Square Root (new pressure / old pressure)) X old pressure

New pressure = 60, old pressure = 43.5 with 44 lb/hr injectors;

60 / 43.5 = 1.378, sqrt 1.378 = 1.174, 1.174 X 44 lb/hr = 51.7 lb/hr

This new flow rate would allow the following HP calculation;

((51.7 X 8) / .5) X .85 = 703 HP

if i read the brochure right, you guys also have one that works with the LSx correct?

very neat stuff.

aaron

Doug
in my situation where at see level I was pushing 650+ but up here in themountians Iam only makeing maybe 480-500 would the avenger be a good place to start? not that I dont mind laptop tunning but I am tired of tunning my car. I thinking of just going N/A all the time and whatever it runs it runs in the 1/4. no more well if i rejet and spray X amount I can hit 9.99 and still be legal games. Iam not licensed if you couldnt tell.

With that big of a cam I would definately recommend a laptop programmable system. Even with that, you get a base calibration to start.

At idle with that big of a cam, the 02 sensor reading you'd get could be a false lean. Without the full laptop deal, it would be more difficult to deal with that.

if i read the brochure right, you guys also have one that works with the LSx correct?

very neat stuff.

aaron

The HP and Dominator ECU's can run LSx engines as a standard feature. The Dominator can do drive by wire as well as run a 4L60E or 4L80E transmission.

Harnesses are offered for LS1/6 and LS2/3/7 engines. They plug into the factory DIS and sensors.

I've been driving around a 98 camaro running all that with DBW added for a while now.

So Doug,

Do these new systems make the C950's obsolete? For the avg. person that just needs fuel/spark control, is the new systems that much better?

So Doug,

Do these new systems make the C950's obsolete? For the avg. person that just needs fuel/spark control, is the new systems that much better?

This will replace the C950, just like all other electronics. Is it that much better? "Better" means many things to many people. That is a very true statement. But for the average guy, the self tuning fuel table alone is a huge help and could save hours and $'s if they weren't proficient at tuning, which I've found to be the case. Other things such as being able to change injector size and needing no recalibration is a huge help. Integrated WB02 is a big help. The datalogger is much nicer and that is great for many people. All that stuff adds up, not talking about a lot of the additional features. The idle control is better which is a huge thing in itself.

The C950 served me well for 10 years on my car, and I hated to take it off actually. But once I got used to this new system, there is no going back. Just like most new things which should be an improvement.

The retail pricing for the new systems will be just about what a C950 is if you purchase the $300 wideband upgrade, so I can't see how you can go wrong. The ECU's can be mounted in the engine compartment (within temp reason), the connectors are all sealed and you have USB instead of serial. All noted improvements.

Doug, On the auto tune system, what is the target? A/F ratio? If so does it have the ability to do break points (change target) vs. MAP/Throttle/RPM? (e.g. the A/F is 14.5 at 2200 RPM and 3 PSI MAP, 10% throttle but becomes 12.8 A/F at 43 PSI MAP and 80% throttle) is this controllable in the set up GUI?

Ron

Hey guys. Just got back real late last night from SEMA. Had a great show with tons of interest. Although the TBI and MPFI hardware hasn't been updated, the ECUs are brand new ground up.

The features are more than about any system out there. The pricing WILL be very favorable.

The Dominator unit will be priced around a FAST, but can:
- Plug and Play with LSx engines
- Run 3 sets of low imp injectors
- DIS ignition
- Dual channel WBO2
- Self tune fuel map
- Electronic Trans Control
- Drive By Wire Control (very cool) Can run 2 even
- 2 GB on board logging
- 4 stage nitous (progressive and dry)
- Boost control
- Incredibly accurate Water Meth injection
- More user programmable inputs and outputs than any human can use
- Excellent idle and closed loop control
- More....

Plus an optional 5.7" full color Touch Screen LCD that can do all tuning and eliminate the need for a laptop, plus programmable gauges that can show any input sensor.

We are also offering our own DIS coils, trigger wheels and hardward to support the WM and Boost Control, tranducers, etc.

The HP can do all that but can't do trans or DBW and has a limit of 4 inputs and 4 outputs and is single channel WB02.

If that doesn't leap frog most systems tell me what we missed!

Doug,
Tell Bill T the camera did not put 6" of height on him..... See you at PRI..

Doug,
Tell Bill T the camera did not put 6" of height on him..... See you at PRI..

LOL! I'll break the bad news to him!

Doug, On the auto tune system, what is the target? A/F ratio? If so does it have the ability to do break points (change target) vs. MAP/Throttle/RPM? (e.g. the A/F is 14.5 at 2200 RPM and 3 PSI MAP, 10% throttle but becomes 12.8 A/F at 43 PSI MAP and 80% throttle) is this controllable in the set up GUI?

Ron

Ron,
On the laptop tunable systems, you have a 16x16 RPM vs load table to input the target A/F.

On the "Avenger" the user can input a target A/F value for "idle", "cruise", and "WOT" and they will blend.

Ron,
On the laptop tunable systems, you have a 16x16 RPM vs load table to input the target A/F.

On the "Avenger" the user can input a target A/F value for "idle", "cruise", and "WOT" and they will blend.

Will a demo version of the GUI be available for the self tuning "Avenger?" model? Or is it assumed that there would be no need for a GUI?

Since you talk about add on stuff, would you have GPS position, brake pressure, suspension position transducers and the like available too?

If so is there a seperate charge for the GUI when used with an Avenger system?

Ron

Will a demo version of the GUI be available for the self tuning "Avenger?" model? Or is it assumed that there would be no need for a GUI?

Since you talk about add on stuff, would you have GPS position, brake pressure, suspension position transducers and the like available too?

If so is there a seperate charge for the GUI when used with an Avenger system?

Ron

The "GUI" for the Avenger is on a small hand-held controller, it is not PC based. Could consider making some kind of demo for it so a consumer could review it.

Any analog input could be added to the 0-5, 0-20v inputs. Right now we just have pressure transducers and some temps and std sensors, but you could purchase other sensors and enter the calibrations for them. GPS is something we have looked in to....v

If you purchase the Avenger product, and want to upgrade to laptop programability in the future, it is a free download, no charge. You just need to buy a $5 USB cable.


You kind of went from one end of the spectrum to the other there! No laptop to suspension travel sensors!

Doug F
Great product! Nice to meet you at SEMA. I think I need one of these for my Bodix 18 degree SB 427 / hilborn mainfold project.

David

Doug,

If I decide to go to the Dominator ECU, are the connectors different than the C950 WeatherPak? I have dual WB C950, can I use the calibrated Bosch O2 sensors on the Dominator by entering a different O2 map voltage?

Thanks,

John

Doug,

If I decide to go to the Dominator ECU, are the connectors different than the C950 WeatherPak? I have dual WB C950, can I use the calibrated Bosch O2 sensors on the Dominator by entering a different O2 map voltage?

Thanks,

John

The ECU connectors are all new. The sensor connectors are the same. Your current sensors, if Holley, will work. You don't have to enter a calibration, just select "Bosch" under the sensor parameters. The WBO2 is all integrated.

It appears a cam sync will be needed for sequential? How will a person get this accomplished? GM Gen V 540. I have not found anyone still making a cam sync that also serves as the oil pump drive. Only ones found are no longer being made, MSD8514. MSD said they were dinosaurs and no longer in production. I want to try the coil per plug set up and don't want a distributor setting in the back just to provide cam sync.

I was thinking of a cam sprocket sensor but worry about clearance to the water pump and oil leaks at the cover???? I can't figure out how the newer engines are doing this, I assume they use crank triggers and cam triggers.

It appears a cam sync will be needed for sequential? How will a person get this accomplished? GM Gen V 540. I have not found anyone still making a cam sync that also serves as the oil pump drive. Only ones found are no longer being made, MSD8514. MSD said they were dinosaurs and no longer in production. I want to try the coil per plug set up and don't want a distributor setting in the back just to provide cam sync.

I was thinking of a cam sprocket sensor but worry about clearance to the water pump and oil leaks at the cover???? I can't figure out how the newer engines are doing this, I assume they use crank triggers and cam triggers.

Options are if you still want a conventional distributor:
- FAST or Mallory/Accel or MSD Distributor (they have a new one) which has it built in cam and crank signals. They all make one for SBC/BBC and others.

- If you already have a crank signal not coming from the distributor, take 7 teeth off the reluctor on any mag pickup distributor

Retrofitting DIS:
- What I did on mine (i have a 58x crank wheel i added) is get a GM distributor they made for some 90's BBC's that has a hall effect cam signal only) it is very short. I have the pn. I think it went obsolete, but a person is reproducing them. It is a nice, piece.

I have no ignition system selected yet. What type of distributor would you recommend/need for the Holley HP system, or is a small cap GM HEI still a good choice?

Would distributorless Ignition system be a better choice? It seems like overkill for a mainly street car.

Is sequential that much better than batch?

Doug, please post the part number for that 90's vintage distributor. Hopefully I can match that with a few body styles and then look for that in the salvage yards. Thanks for the response.

I have no ignition system selected yet. What type of distributor would you recommend/need for the Holley HP system, or is a small cap GM HEI still a good choice?

Would distributorless Ignition system be a better choice? It seems like overkill for a mainly street car.

Is sequential that much better than batch?

I ran an HEI for many years with my EFI SBC with no ignition box and it "worked fine". When I ran nitrous I added an ignition box with a small cap HEI and it "worked fine". Worked fine meaning I never had problems and it did the job.

When I put this new EFI on my Nova, I swapped out the small cap HEI and ignition box and put the new DIS on it. I was skeptical myself that it would be much better. I have to say I like it very much now. It starts the same no matter the temp, etc, etc, etc. Two cranks and it starts up immeditately and repeatedly. I run a cold race plug on pump gas for the nitrous and they look great even driving on the street. The timing stability with the crank trigger wheel is awesome. The timing is rock solid at any RPM, the distrubutor wasn't.

So I'd defintately say the DIS is "better". Is it a "better choice" for a street/strip car? Other than the fact it is definately "different", the dizzy and ign box did the job for my stuff, so it could come down to cost.

I'm not sure what the new DIS will cost retail quite yet, but it should be less I hope than a higher end MSD box and new distributor, so from a cost standpoint, it might be the way to go and definately from a "better" standpoint IMO.

But if you have a small cap HEI and a 6A box laying around, I'd start there first for a street or street strip car. Starting from scratch it depends on the needs and applications.

Maybe that wans't too clear...

Doug, please post the part number for that 90's vintage distributor. Hopefully I can match that with a few body styles and then look for that in the salvage yards. Thanks for the response.

Take a look at this post. This is the piece. I bought a melonized gear for mine just to be sure I had compatibility there.

I didn't take the time to check, but I was told this PN is obsolete now. I have pictures of a unit someone is now making that is identical to this. Have a buddy that bought it and is running it. Cost was likely less than the GM.



http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143006&highlight=BBC+cam+sync

I have no ignition system selected yet. What type of distributor would you recommend/need for the Holley HP system, or is a small cap GM HEI still a good choice?

Would distributorless Ignition system be a better choice? It seems like overkill for a mainly street car.

Is sequential that much better than batch?

As far as the sequential. One thing it gives is the ability for individual cylinder tuning, which 99% of people don't use or have the data to use. My thoughts on sequential used to be is that it doesn't make a huge difference. During testing this year I saw something I hadn't seen before (due to the fact I hadn't had the data that I had this year) is that with bank to bank firing, there was an uneven A/F ratio bank to bank (even and odd cylinders) on some engines including my own car. Although I don't have the "complete answer", further testing showed some of this appears to be due to fuel pulsations/dynamics within the fuel rails itself, and that individual firing of the injectors seems to help that.

Adding a fuel damper (which by the way come on many factory cars now) might fix this problem.

So, although I've run bank to bank for years with "no apparent issues", from what I've seen I'd prefer sequential. But I've run bank to bank on a lot of applications without any apparent problems.

When you get a ton of data, you start to see a lot of things you didn't know, some things only the "data shows to be a problem". I'd rank this on there for the most part, but if you are running nitrous, etc, this is the kind of thing that will kill a cylinder and you might not know why.

Doug, please post the part number for that 90's vintage distributor. Hopefully I can match that with a few body styles and then look for that in the salvage yards. Thanks for the response.


You can find them in the 96-99 gm trucks with 454's

I used to see them all the time and always thought I should pull one for a future build but never did.

With a single oxygen sensor there's really no way to take advantage of sequential fueling anyway right....

Sooo…if I want to run bank to bank all I need is a small cap HEI for a couple hundred bucks and no CD box? Then it will be like the C950 as far as the actual injector firing.

Sequential is where it gets a little cloudy, but I’m getting older and cloudy is to be expected I guess. To run sequential I would need a distributor like the one below?

This is the Mallory aftermarket EFI distributor for $380, which apparently needs a CD box @ $200.
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/DistrbutorsAftermarketFuelInjection.pdf (http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/DistrbutorsAftermarketFuelInjection.pdf)

Or, do I need a crank trigger distributor for $285, crank trigger kit for $300, and CD box @ $200?
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/CrankTriggerKitsDistributors.pdf (http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/CrankTriggerKitsDistributors.pdf)

Am I figuring this right? I can choose between bank to bank for $200 or sequential for $600-$800?

With a single oxygen sensor there's really no way to take advantage of sequential fueling anyway right....

That's kind of the "backwards" way to think about it. As as correcting individual cylinders, unless you had 8 02 sensors, you couldn't do that under every condition. Just at WOT on a nitrous motor to crutch bad distribution is one thing, but that condition is very dynamic.

Sequential COULD help get better distribution, by proper injection timing and not spraying on a closed valve, so you are taking care of any inherent advantages by using it.

Any of those "options" would work. Only other option would be to get a boneyard HEI for $20 and go through it!

If you have a CD box lying around, it isn't too bad to get a sync pulse disributor, but if you don't then the costs add up. If I had the CD box and needed a distributor, I'd spend the extra cash to get the sync pulse distributor rather than an HEI for $200.

Even without the sync pulse you still run the injectors with 8 drivers and have more options than the C950 which is bank to bank. You can run them paired, bank to bank, or untimed sequential.

There's always ways to spend money...



Sooo…if I want to run bank to bank all I need is a small cap HEI for a couple hundred bucks and no CD box? Then it will be like the C950 as far as the actual injector firing.

Sequential is where it gets a little cloudy, but I’m getting older and cloudy is to be expected I guess. To run sequential I would need a distributor like the one below?

This is the Mallory aftermarket EFI distributor for $380, which apparently needs a CD box @ $200.
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/DistrbutorsAftermarketFuelInjection.pdf (http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/DistrbutorsAftermarketFuelInjection.pdf)

Or, do I need a crank trigger distributor for $285, crank trigger kit for $300, and CD box @ $200?
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/CrankTriggerKitsDistributors.pdf (http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/CrankTriggerKitsDistributors.pdf)

Am I figuring this right? I can choose between bank to bank for $200 or sequential for $600-$800?

If you have a CD box lying around, it isn't too bad to get a sync pulse disributor, but if you don't then the costs add up. If I had the CD box and needed a distributor, I'd spend the extra cash to get the sync pulse distributor rather than an HEI for $200.

Even without the sync pulse you still run the injectors with 8 drivers and have more options than the C950 which is bank to bank. You can run them paired, bank to bank, or untimed sequential.

I have nothing. No CD box, big or small cap HEI and the only trigger I have is on things that make a really loud boom. http://www.chevelles.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif A small cap HEI would probably be the way to go.

"Untimed" sequential seems like a wierd term. I thought timing was important in an engine! http://www.chevelles.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif Kidding aside, what is untimed sequential?

Excited to see pricing on just an ECU and harness..

Package deal on a 2-pack? Thought I could get away with a couple of HPs (one for each car) but with DBW, sounds like I need the Dominator on car #2.

Excited to see pricing on just an ECU and harness..

Package deal on a 2-pack? Thought I could get away with a couple of HPs (one for each car) but with DBW, sounds like I need the Dominator on car #2.

Yep 2 x full cost...

How ya doin' TJ? :)

Give me a shout in a few months..

If you have info on the cam sync distributor that is still being made, please let me know.

Per another post, was the 96-99 vintage 454 truck motor a COP system and will that cam sync work? Any details on the output type etc.

can you use one of these for cam and crank signal?
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=122

That's an oddball crank signal. The Holley can read a 24x LSx crank sensor, but that appears to be off the cam.

To run DIS best with a Holley, get the GM cam sync stub, and get the 60-2 crank sensor kit from Holley that has all the brackets, etc, to mount it.

If you don't want DIS, get the FAST or Accel/Mallory EFI distributors which have normal output signal what will give you sequential control with the Holley.

So, any new updates on the availability of these systems? Still on schedule for shipping in the next couple months?

I tracked down one of those GM cam sync stubs so I'm ready to go DIS with the crank trigger!

Should be shipping the next couple of months.

Great meeting you guys at PRI Doug! It's like giving birth getting this stuff out there, huh?:beers:

Great meeting you guys at PRI Doug! It's like giving birth getting this stuff out there, huh?:beers:

I think I'd rather be doing that! Although I'm sure my wife would disagree!

self tuning video

YouTube- Holley Self Tuning Demonstration

Summit has the price for the Avenger 550-402 TBI system released $1942.00. This is for the system that will support 600hp, spark control, and appears to come with the fuel pump.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=550-402&dds=1

Hey guys....just wanted to drop in this post and show some of the capabilities of the new Holley EFI system.

This particular application is our shop 55 Chevy (sorry chevelle fans!) LOL. This application is running Holley's Dominator EFI. We're running a Twin turbo 570" BBC with 76mm Precison turbos, 160lb injectors, Holley DIS (wastespark coils), Dual WBO2, 4L80E and a Water/Meth injection system. We're also using the Holley pressure transducers to monitor fuel, oil and water/meth pressures.

Bear with me as some of the pics aren't of the best quality but, I wanted to give everyone a general impression of what this system can do. Our first impression has been nothng short of fantastic! Once we loaded a base configuration and made the changes for our specific application, the engine fired immediatly. The engine idled and showed improvements in quality the longer it ran. Once fully warmed, we made a few tweaks to the acceleration enrichment graphs so we could safely drive the vehicle. We took the car down the road with no laptop connected. We left the EFI self tune. The farther we drove, the better it ran. Our intial drive was roughly 25 miles with no boost. We connected the laptop and which promptly showed the learning table populated the with corrections for our base tune. We made subsequent drives adding some boost into the mix. The system responded accordingly and was very quick and precise with it's adjustments. We'll have some chassis dyno data this week along with some video as well.

Here's our shop car....55 Chevy 210 Sedan
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/64duece/55%20Chevy/DSC00335.jpg

Here's the power, 570" BBC with hidden water to air intercoolers under the fenders. This using the first igntion configuration (dual sync distributor)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/64duece/55%20Chevy/web04.jpg

Here's the new Dominator EFI VMS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/64duece/efi%20pics/dominatorecu.jpg

Here's the new DIS cam sync (Hall Effect)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/64duece/efi%20pics/camsync.jpg

Here's the 8 1/2" BBC 60-2 Crank sync (Hall Effect)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/64duece/efi%20pics/IMAGE_027.jpg

geez....

160 lb injectors, mine are 30. maybe you could use 30s for an idle system.

Would like to get just the software setup for my Stealth Ram

Dave,

you mean you don't have needed software or having trouble getting it to run right? has it already been discussed here?

Doug,
Check your PM's,

"The HP and Dominator ECU's can run LSx engines as a standard feature. The Dominator can do drive by wire as well as run a 4L60E or 4L80E transmission.

Harnesses are offered for LS1/6 and LS2/3/7 engines. They plug into the factory DIS and sensors.

I've been driving around a 98 camaro running all that with DBW added for a while now."

Swapped out a factory computer on a running engine with the new HP with factory connectors...won"t run...:-(

Dave

Working with Doug now...Quick response :-)

ALL set...
Thanks for the Help Doug!!!

what was wrong, just for the help of the board

what was wrong, just for the help of the board

Same deal you had. You both must be lucky....

The deal is 3 people had issues with the 24x code, we made a change and 3 people are happy now. Will be a running firmware production change.

yes, what Doug said.

oh, cool. for some reason i thought it wouldnt even start.

It wouldn't start. Same problem as one other customer had. Yours started ok, but didn't care for very rapid accels. Same problem mechanism, different conditions. The 24x is not a simple beast to read.

well since the firmware fix mine is running to 7400 fine so Im very happy.