I live in an old house with a rather eclectic wiring system - still have the old glass fuses :rolleyes: - and most of the (few) outlets are 2-prong. I've changed a couple to 3-prong, but they are not grounded properly, so I know that is not right.

With my refrigerators and a few other items, I am using 2-prong adaptors on the plugs, and I know that's not the greatest, but I don't have much choice; haven't had any problems so far.

What needs to be done to wire the outlets properly and ground them? Does the whole house need to be rewired, or is there another way? I know I could research this elsewhere, but the answers here are more fun to read. ;)

Thanks a lot! :thumbsup:

The easiest thing to do is replace the two pronged outlets with GFCI receptacles and label any daisy chained receptacles "GFI" but I wouldn't put a refrigerator on a GFCI myself.
I would run a separate ground wire back to the panel and use a regular grounded receptacle on a refrigerator or freezer.
Same with a garage door opener or furnace or anything that you don't want turned off by a tripped GFCI for that matter.

There is a kit you can buy that takes the receptacles from a 2 wire to a 3 wire without adding wires. I believe it would tie the neutral side to the ground. I havent used one but have heard about them. Check a electrical supply house or maybe Home Depot.

What ever you do, do NOT try to use the neutral for a ground bond.
It has to be a separate wire back to the panel.

I have a two wire system in my old home, I bought new grounded receptacles and put a jumper from the white wire connection to the ground screw.

This meets code in my area, don't continue to use 2 prong adapters on metallic appliances.

I have a two wire system in my old home, I bought new grounded receptacles and put a jumper from the white wire connection to the ground screw.

This meets code in my area, don't continue to use 2 prong adapters on metallic appliances.
If some area does not enforce the NEC it does not make it safe.

What ever you do, do NOT try to use the neutral for a ground bond.
It has to be a separate wire back to the panel.

If you have metal boxes, and BX cable for wiring, just do as Les said with each box. The cable casing grounds the boxes to the panel, and the pig tails in each box will ground each new 3 prong receptacle. I changed all the outlets in my inlaws house, so they could sell it. The inspector had it on the list of things to do keep the buyer happy. Lowes sells the pigtails by the pact for a better value

What ever you do, do NOT try to use the neutral for a ground bond.
It has to be a separate wire back to the panel.

:yes: Agreed.
Neutrals carry some current. Grounds do not. Running a separate ground wire is the #2 best way. Rewiring (more costly) is the best.
Is your old wiring aluminum or copper? If its aluminum, I would suggest a complete rewire. It all doesn't need to be replaced at the same time. You can do it in stages. Start with a modern panel, Then replace the wiring in zones. (IE; kitchen, dinning room, bedrooms)
FYI.
Kitchen = 12/2 wire,20amp circuit (Separate 20 circuits for fridge, micro, dishwasher)
Dinning room = 12/2, 20amp
The rest of the house can be 14/2 wire and 15amp circuits just keep the calculated amps to 13.5 or less. (outlets = 1.5amps and light fixtures = 1amp, EX; 9 outlets = 13.5, or or 8 outlets and a ceiling light = 13amps)

update your power to the house. It might be 40 or 80 amp, and you should have 200 or better, with breakers not fuses. It cost me $1200 in 2001, but well worht it. Then, have the electrician run a separate circuit for each appliance. It's likely that your two prong outlets will have to be completely rewired to have proper ground. Mine are all knob and tube and there is no way to ground them without replacing the knob and tube with romex. Luckily, the PO had a bunch of new ones wired in which are all properly grounded now that I have the updated panel.

If you can get an electrician to come over and have a look see, that will tell you everything you need.

There is a kit you can buy that takes the receptacles from a 2 wire to a 3 wire without adding wires. I believe it would tie the neutral side to the ground. I havent used one but have heard about them. Check a electrical supply house or maybe Home Depot.In my area that is a called a sick bird -AKA Illegal. If your house has knob and tube wiring it would be best to refeed and add circuits for your kitchen and laundry,etc.

Thanks everyone for your replies. :thumbsup:

The house is wired with regular copper wire - no knob and tube or aluminum. The thing is - a couple yrs ago I wanted to get insurance on the place (the reason we're not insured is a whole other story :rolleyes:), and all the insurance companies I talked to said I had to upgrade the fuse box to a breaker box.

I got some estimates, then went to the city to see about permits. The inspector said we'd have to move the panel from the back of the house to the front for better emergency personnel access. :mad: This would have cost some $5K+ at that time, and I didn't have that kind of cash lying around then or now. So, I just said the hell with it. Don't like having the place uninsured, but it is what it is. I may just get a friend to put in a breaker box and the heck with the city and their permits.

I would still have to rewire the place, and that would probably cost a bundle.

As for BX cable, Bill - I have no idea what that is. The wiring I have is plastic/vinyl coated.

I have to think about this some more ...

The wiring I have is plastic/vinyl coated.

I have to think about this some more ...

Are you sure that there isn't a ground wire in with the black and white... I don't know the age of your wiring but I can't recall that type of wire that didn't have all three wires. Pull an outlet out and if the box is metal, See if the ground is screwed to the back of the box.

A couple of points:

As mentioned, the grounding conductor, while at the same voltage as the neutral, is intended to be separate.

Using a 3 prong adapter correctly, which means retaining the little terminal under the cover screw, is electrically identical to tying the ground to the white wire. It does not give you a separate grounding conductor.

Using a GFCI and labeling it "no ground" is the cheap (and compliant) way out. GFCIs come with little stickers for this purpose.

BX cable is old style two conductor metal sheath cable. Using the sheath will electrical make a ground. In fact, if your house was wired in BX and metal boxes, installing a 3 prong outlet would inherently make the connection. But, it is no longer code compliant as a grounding conductor. This has something to do with the way the metal sheath is made resulting in a very long spiral path for the fault current to flow -- several times longer than the physical length of the cable. Modern metal sheath cable contains a grounding conductor.

The comments about running a separate ground may not be code compliant. It will function, but you should check if this is permitted in your area.

The comments about running new dedicated circuits for your refrigerator, furnace, etc. and using GFCIs for everything else are probably your fastest/easiest/cheapest solution. But adding new circuits will require a panel upgrade or a sub panel addition.

Any way you do this, pull permits and get it inspected for your local requirements.

Are you sure that there isn't a ground wire in with the black and white... I don't know the age of your wiring but I can't recall that type of wire that didn't have all three wires. Pull an outlet out and if the box is metal, See if the ground is screwed to the back of the box.

There is a whole lot of NM out there with no ground in it. It is pretty common to find, best I can tell it became pretty common in the 50's or 60's it seems. Hard to age previous work, but that is what I can guesstimate.

I would see if you can peel the sheathing down on any of that nm just a bit and see if the ground has been cut out of it, that is incredibly common as well. It amazes me the number of house I have to go to to ground recepticles because of home inspector reports and the grounds are there, just cut off.

Jeff

I will look at the wire in one of my outlets soon and bring this back to the top.

Thanks again, guys! :thumbsup:

As to comments here you may not need a 200 amp service.
The service size depends on several factors: size of your home in Sq Ft, electrical appliances vs. gas, gas heater vs. electric heat / with ac.
Just make sure all connections are tight in the panel. Make sure That the fuse holders are in good shape. No cracks, signs of overheating, clean- yes clean – no dust devils hanging around.
Breakers are a convenience item.
Fuses are better devices, more costly because of one time use, but the best as far as over current protection. Both can be incorrectly sized for the type of load.
Some will argue about breakers, circuit breaker internal mechanizes can stick with age and may not trip or will not reset after a trip. I have seen this many times in my line of work.
As to Ground wires (green or bare) Neutral wire (white) are both bonded together either at the panel or at the meter but should not be bonded together at a device (outlet) or appliance. This all depend on the local Inspection Authority and how they interpret or writes area building codes.

As to comments here you may not need a 200 amp service.
The service size depends on several factors: size of your home in Sq Ft, electrical appliances vs. gas, gas heater vs. electric heat / with ac.
Just make sure all connections are tight in the panel. Make sure That the fuse holders are in good shape. No cracks, signs of overheating, clean- yes clean – no dust devils hanging around.
Breakers are a convenience item.
Fuses are better devices, more costly because of one time use, but the best as far as over current protection. Both can be incorrectly sized for the type of load.
Some will argue about breakers, circuit breaker internal mechanizes can stick with age and may not trip or will not reset after a trip. I have seen this many times in my line of work.
As to Ground wires (green or bare) Neutral wire (white) are both bonded together either at the panel or at the meter but should not be bonded together at a device (outlet) or appliance. This all depend on the local Inspection Authority and how they interpret or writes area building codes.

the thing about fuses is it's possible (even easy) to put an oversized fuse in place of the correct one. To quote my electrician "I'm glad you called me when you did", refering to the mess he found when he took a look at my service panel. I would have sorted it our eventually but hadn't really looked, since the upgrade was the first thing I had done after I bought the house.

the thing about fuses is it's possible (even easy) to put an oversized fuse in place of the correct one. To quote my electrician "I'm glad you called me when you did", refering to the mess he found when he took a look at my service panel. I would have sorted it our eventually but hadn't really looked, since the upgrade was the first thing I had done after I bought the house.

But its even easier to put the wrong sized breaker in. Quite often fuse boxes have Type S inserts put into them which means a 15 amp fuse can only be installed in a 15 amp circuit, or a 20 in a 20 and so on. Sure one can always move a 14 gauge wire to a 20 amp circuit, but that is even easier to do with breakers.

Over all, fuses are considerably safer, breakers are nothing more than a convenience item. Fuses will trip faster and more accurately every time.

Jeff

Over all, fuses are considerably safer, breakers are nothing more than a convenience item. Fuses will trip faster and more accurately every time.

Jeff

That's good to know; but why did all the insurance companies I asked about insuring the place insist I had to have a breaker box installed before they'd insure me?

If fuses are safer, it seems like a no-brainer to me. :confused:

But its even easier to put the wrong sized breaker in. Quite often fuse boxes have Type S inserts put into them which means a 15 amp fuse can only be installed in a 15 amp circuit, or a 20 in a 20 and so on. Sure one can always move a 14 gauge wire to a 20 amp circuit, but that is even easier to do with breakers.

Over all, fuses are considerably safer, breakers are nothing more than a convenience item. Fuses will trip faster and more accurately every time.

Jeff

well I guess my point was, once the breakers are installed and correct, it's less likely it will be switched out for an incorrect one at some later point. Breakers are more often installed by electricians, and fuses by homeowners. Not that electricians always get it right. I had to do some clean up after a pro ran some new circuits for me.

Although it would be nice to upgrade the panel or even a complete re-wire job if and when you can afford to do it Dave but it's not at all necessary to do so just so you'll have grounded or GFCI receptacles.

Yes some homeowners have put 30 amp fuses in 15 amp circuits but also there are still many homes with fuses rather than breakers that are plenty safe.

Maybe some insurance companies just wrongly ASSUME that since a house is old school that it might have unsafe wiring or wrong size fuses (or pennies) in some of the circuit's fuse holders. :confused:

I would just do like I said above and start saving up for an upgrade later if that is what you want.

Everyone should take a look at their electrical system and fuses to make sure there are no pennies behind any fuses and any overcurrent device is properly sized, however it might not be wise for an unqualified person to even open up an electrical panel and a professional should do the inspection.

That's good to know; but why did all the insurance companies I asked about insuring the place insist I had to have a breaker box installed before they'd insure me?

If fuses are safer, it seems like a no-brainer to me. :confused:

I would consider calling a few insurance companies and ask them if they will insure you if you get a licensed electrician to come in and install type s fuse inserts in each fuse holder and make certain each circuit is correctly fused. I have had to do that many many times for home owners to get insurance. Let me ask you, does your house have a 60 amp service on it? In Wisconsin you will not get insurance on a home if it has a 60 amp service on it anymore, that may be what they wanted you to upgrade. Not so much the fuses to breakers as it is the amperage of the service itself.

I have installed new 200 amp fuse panels as recently as this past year for home owners that know th ediffrence and will give up some of the convenience for the added safety. When doing new installs with fuses, there is very little diffrenc ebetween breakers and fuses as I can supply enough fuse spaces to make certain circuits are not overloaded and the home owners dont have nuisance tripping problems.

As for your grounding issues, if you indeed do have nm cable with no ground, I would attempt to fish in a ground. That said, if you have a well with a copper supply line or the city water lateral is copper underground, and all your interior supply lines are copper, you can land your grounds safely and up to code right on those copper lines. Just go to home depot or lowes and ask for some pipe bonding clamps. Now myself, I have only ever done a job a very few times where I only added a ground. Quite honestly, if you can get a ground conductor to the recepticle, odds are you can get a whole new 12-2 or 14-2 branch circuit feed to it just as easily.

Jeff

well I guess my point was, once the breakers are installed and correct, it's less likely it will be switched out for an incorrect one at some later point. Breakers are more often installed by electricians, and fuses by homeowners. Not that electricians always get it right. I had to do some clean up after a pro ran some new circuits for me.

From my own professional stand point, as a licensed master electrician and almost 20 years of doing electrical service work, it is just as likely to find where a home owner has put in far to large a breaker as it is a fuse. It never ceases to amaze me some of the things I will find when I get into panels. Home owners that put 30 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire is pretty darn common, you know if 15 is good, 30 must be better right?

Breakers certainly are not what many seem to think they are. You would be very shocked I bet if you knew how many times I have pulled live conductors through EMT conduit and never tripped the breaker, just heard it arcing and sparking the entire way through, but never trips the breaker. Sometimes this is due to a weak ground, but quite aften breakers that are stuck open and nobody ever knows it.

Jeff

Let me ask you, does your house have a 60 amp service on it?

Thanks for all the other advice in this post. :) And, how can I tell what my amperage is? I have no idea ...

Thanks for all the other advice in this post. :) And, how can I tell what my amperage is? I have no idea ...

With fuses about the only way you will know is to pull the handle out that says "MAIN" on it and flip it over and see what size fuses it houses. This is assuming you have the most typical of fuse setups, which would be one handle that says "MAIN" on it and right next to it another handle and cartridge that says "RANGE" on it, then a row of screw in fuse below it.

If not, look for what ever the biggest fuses in the fuse panel are.

If you do have to pull that handle out to check, make sure you have a flashlight on you, as you will be disconnecting all power from the house at that time. You will want the flashlight to see where you are putting it back in and also to read the fuses.

Option 2 would be to take a quick picture of your fuse panel and post it here. I or somebody else can tell you what you have there and also whether you have any reason to be concerned with you fuse panel. At the same time I may be able to see if your NM cable is grounded or not as well

Jeff

Option 2 would be to take a quick picture of your fuse panel and post it here. I or somebody else can tell you what you have there and also whether you have any reason to be concerned with you fuse panel. At the same time I may be able to see if your NM cable is grounded or not as well

Jeff

I already took pics - was uploading them, but I don't have enough room on here. I'm in the middle of something right now, but I'll see about emailing them or something in about a half hour.

What ever you do, do NOT try to use the neutral for a ground bond.
It has to be a separate wire back to the panel.
What Dean said.:yes:

Emailed them to you, Jeff. Thanks! :D

Jeff: you mentioned the possibility of grounding via copper water pipes. Would it be necessary to put some kind of jumper over a dielectric union if there is one in the plumbing? Or would you put in a ground stake?

From my own professional stand point, as a licensed master electrician and almost 20 years of doing electrical service work, it is just as likely to find where a home owner has put in far to large a breaker as it is a fuse. It never ceases to amaze me some of the things I will find when I get into panels. Home owners that put 30 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire is pretty darn common, you know if 15 is good, 30 must be better right?

Breakers certainly are not what many seem to think they are. You would be very shocked I bet if you knew how many times I have pulled live conductors through EMT conduit and never tripped the breaker, just heard it arcing and sparking the entire way through, but never trips the breaker. Sometimes this is due to a weak ground, but quite aften breakers that are stuck open and nobody ever knows it.

Jeff Your right about some breakers not tripping. I have seen old Federal Pacific breakers you could darn near weld with.

Although it would be nice to upgrade the panel or even a complete re-wire job if and when you can afford to do it Dave but it's not at all necessary to do so just so you'll have grounded or GFCI receptacles.

Yes some homeowners have put 30 amp fuses in 15 amp circuits but also there are still many homes with fuses rather than breakers that are plenty safe.

Maybe some insurance companies just wrongly ASSUME that since a house is old school that it might have unsafe wiring or wrong size fuses (or pennies) in some of the circuit's fuse holders. :confused:

I would just do like I said above and start saving up for an upgrade later if that is what you want.

Everyone should take a look at their electrical system and fuses to make sure there are no pennies behind any fuses and any overcurrent device is properly sized, however it might not be wise for an unqualified person to even open up an electrical panel and a professional should do the inspection.Finally somebody mentioned pennies behind the fuses? When I was a Serviceman at a REC you would see alot of this in old farm houses and barns. Sometimes they would end up as neat little copper washers.

Jeff: you mentioned the possibility of grounding via copper water pipes. Would it be necessary to put some kind of jumper over a dielectric union if there is one in the plumbing? Or would you put in a ground stake?

Yes anywhere you dont have a continuous copper joint, you would want to jumper over that. Also, if you use the water pipes as your ground, which is completely code compliant, you will want to make certain that you have a jumper going around the water meter. Reason being should someone have to pull the meter to repair it, you dont want that seperating the ground path, and potentially someone having a bare hand on each side and using his or her body to clear a fault.

Jeff

Finally somebody mentioned pennies behind the fuses? When I was a Serviceman at a REC you would see alot of this in old farm houses and barns. Sometimes they would end up as neat little copper washers.

I have afew saved just like that, holes melted right through them.

Jeff

A couple of months ago, a young plumber got electrocuted when he cut the water pipe in a crawl space a few blocks from me.
I never did hear the rest of the story.

Emailed them to you, Jeff. Thanks! :D

Jeff post the picture of the panel

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6587/dave1.th.jpg (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/dave1.jpg/)

Take a look at the picture. This is what Dave sent me of his panel. (click the picture, it is on image shack)

Dave, the yellow arrow appears to be number 4 copper, which is good for 100 amps in a residential service, so based on that I am assuming you have a 100 amp service.

The red arrows are your main disconnects, this is where the main fuses would be located. Grab the handle and pull out and on the reverse side are the main fuses. When these are pulled, the respective side of the fuse panel is dead.

The blue arrows point to the main bus bars, even with the main fuses pulled, these will still be hot and there is nothing that will shut them off outside of pulling out the electric meter. DO NOT EVER TOUCH THESE!!!!

The little tiny green arrow is pointing to a ground coming out of one of the nm cables in the panel, so at least one of them is grounded.

The purple arrows are pointing to the nm cables, the easiest way to find out if they are grounded is to slice back a bit of the sheating in the panel and see if there is a ground in them. You can easily grab a flashlight, pull those main fuse cartridges and then work in the panel, just stay away from touching the areas with the blue arrows, everything else will be dead.

Judging by what I see, do you have a gas range?

Jeff

A couple of months ago, a young plumber got electrocuted when he cut the water pipe in a crawl space a few blocks from me.
I never did hear the rest of the story.

The house next door to me burned down when the city tore our road out and replaced the water lateral. Seems the nuetral on th eservice drop went bad, and the house was using the water lateral as th eonly ground/nuetral, when the city cut it the house had no nuetral or ground and it immedietely started on fire. It was only 10 feet from my chevelle that was parked in the driveway at the time :(

Jeff

hmmmm.............should have made that picture bigger

sorry

I can count a pretty large number of code violations in this picture right off hand. No connectors at most of the nm cable entrances. Teh service conductors enter through a hole with no connector or bushing on it. White wire used as a hot and not re-identified...........

jeff

The blue arrows point to the main bus bars, even with the main fuses pulled, these will still be hot and there is nothing that will shut them off outside of pulling out the electric meter. DO NOT EVER TOUCH THESE!!!!

The little tiny green arrow is pointing to a ground coming out of one of the nm cables in the panel, so at least one of them is grounded.

The purple arrows are pointing to the nm cables, the easiest way to find out if they are grounded is to slice back a bit of the sheating in the panel and see if there is a ground in them. You can easily grab a flashlight, pull those main fuse cartridges and then work in the panel, just stay away from touching the areas with the blue arrows, everything else will be dead.

Judging by what I see, do you have a gas range?

Jeff

Interesting and informative, Jeff - Thanks! :thumbsup: Believe me, I touch as little as possible when I have to do something in there. I don't even like opening the dang thing up, kinda scares me. :o

There is a gas range in my part of the house, but I've never hooked it up. I think it was in the other side of the house at one time. Why?

I can count a pretty large number of code violations in this picture right off hand. No connectors at most of the nm cable entrances. Teh service conductors enter through a hole with no connector or bushing on it. White wire used as a hot and not re-identified...........

jeff

I figured - I don't know much about electrical, but I DO know that it is ugly in there. :rolleyes:

There is a gas range in my part of the house, but I've never hooked it up. I think it was in the other side of the house at one time. Why?

Well right off hand I dont see any conductors large enough to handle the 40 amps of an electric range, so I was hoping you didnt have one in there anywhere. ;)

jeff

From my own professional stand point, as a licensed master electrician and almost 20 years of doing electrical service work, it is just as likely to find where a home owner has put in far to large a breaker as it is a fuse. It never ceases to amaze me some of the things I will find when I get into panels. Home owners that put 30 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire is pretty darn common, you know if 15 is good, 30 must be better right?

Breakers certainly are not what many seem to think they are. You would be very shocked I bet if you knew how many times I have pulled live conductors through EMT conduit and never tripped the breaker, just heard it arcing and sparking the entire way through, but never trips the breaker. Sometimes this is due to a weak ground, but quite aften breakers that are stuck open and nobody ever knows it.

Jeff

I agree with your observations, but why would you ever have a valid reason to pull live conductors through conduit? No animosity intended, but a master electrician with 20 years experience should never risk doing that.

I agree with your observations, but why would you ever have a valid reason to pull live conductors through conduit? No animosity intended, but a master electrician with 20 years experience should never risk doing that.

If there was risk involved we wouldnt do it. There are situations where we actually set it up to test older breakers to see if they would trip intentionally, and also I have been on sites where panels are not marked at all in larger warehouses, and instead of risking shutting down someones live computers, yank the conductors out. Not to mention the times I have had a foreman (prior to my being a leadman and now owning my own company) tell me the breaker was off and then discovering, oops wrong breaker.

Its like all professions, no matter what it is you are trained in, you learn what you can and can not do over time. Every profession has little things that unless you are in that profession would likely never think of doing. My job has the same thing.

I would never recommend for anyone on here to work on anything electrical live, but for me, I rarely ever turn it off unless it is getting into higher voltage higher amperage stuff. Reglular house wiring I do nearly everything hot because it is easier and faster for me to find problems.

Jeff

Well right off hand I dont see any conductors large enough to handle the 40 amps of an electric range, so I was hoping you didnt have one in there anywhere. ;)

jeff

That's for sure!

The panel looks to be in good shape aside from what Jeff has pointed out.
Screw terminals are bright not discolored
No signs of overheating on the insulation of the wires except the one white wire coming from the neutral bus bar down between the pull out fuse blocks looks to be burned and arcing.
The incorrectly used white wire on the right side of the panel at the bottom fuse could be connected better. Should look like others in panel, wrapped around screw in the correct direction, like the black wire above it. So the loop closes up with the screw when tightened. This is a common mistake made by lots of people when connecting wires on a screw terminal of a device.
It’s been so long. What amps is the screw in fuses. 15 no more than 20 amps I hope all wire look to be AWG12 &14.
The two fuses with two wires under the screw. This is not good and needs to be corrected.
I have to disagree with Jeff this panel has no main fuse (I could be wrong and have been in the past)
The pull fuse block on the upper left is not in use. No wires coming from terminals and the pull fuse block on the upper right is only partly being used (the one black wire). These would be good up to about 40 amps max. You see on the pull fuse blocks the words off and on. When the word is written correctly as in (on and not no) then the fuse is active, but when off is right side up, then the terminals with that block are not getting power (a manual switch) that pull block can be installed in two directions watch what your doing.
Because of some of the stuff mentioned here and in this post is why I do not do residential electrical wiring (things people do). I have held an electricians license in SC for 30+ years now. But I only do commercial / industrial work. Crawl spaces and attics and I just don’t get along with each other.
GOOD LUCK (a volt, amp, meter could be your friend)ASK QUESTION HERE!

Jeff said "I would never recommend for anyone on here to work on anything electrical live, but for me, I rarely ever turn it off unless it is getting into higher voltage higher amperage stuff. Reglular house wiring I do nearly everything hot because it is easier and faster for me to find problems."
I agree with Jeff here sometimes you have to have circuits live to find problems. I myself only get real nervious around 480vac because of the damage it can do but 120v thru 277 vac I leave on it helps me stay on my toes being more careful knowing it's alive and WILL KILL ME.

I have to disagree with Jeff this panel has no main fuse (I could be wrong and have been in the past)
The pull fuse block on the upper left is not in use. No wires coming from terminals and the pull fuse block on the upper right is only partly being used (the one black wire). These would be good up to about 40 amps max. You see on the pull fuse blocks the words off and on. When the word is written correctly as in (on and not no) then the fuse is active, but when off is right side up, then the terminals with that block are not getting power (a manual switch) that pull block can be installed in two directions watch what your doing.

Notice the bus bars Barry, they run behind the fuse cartridges and then down to each side of the panel. Unless I am mistaken this is a split main fuse panel. Sort of like some of the old, I believe it was Federal Pacific that did it, panels that had a main breaker at the top and a main breaker in the middle as well.

The lugs coming off of the sides of those cartridges are very likely unfused lugs.

The very best way to know for sure would be a picture of the cartridges pulled out. Or pull the cartridges and throw a meter on it.

Dave also sent me a picture of th emeter directly above this panel Barry, which I just now noticed is why there is no bushing on the main conductors coming in, it goes from a meter socket down to a 1 1/4 hub and directly into this panel.

Now with that said, I would say this is a split main panel because of the fact that if it isnt, there is a huge violation of the 6 disconnect rule here. If those are not main disconnects, that would mean there are 10 disconnects on this service, not good. Not that I havent seen that before, but not typically with fuse panels.

Jeff

Here is the other picture Dave sent me:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5449/dave2e.th.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/dave2e.jpg/)

It has the old independently metered water heater socket on it yet, and that looks like it feeds down to what appears to be a small maybe 4 circuit disconnect? Maybe the water heater and range come out of this?

Jeff

Jeff
Huuuummmmm!
ok sure hope range comes from the side panel
Dave be careful as said before a good volt meter could be your friend!
keep us updated

I am always impressed by the diversity of expertise in many fields to be found here on TC. :D And thanks to all for taking your time to answer my questions. :thumbsup:

The main reason I asked about the outlets is I just bought one of those EdenPure electric heaters. And, as with the fairly new refers and freezer I've got here, the instructions say to plug it into a 3-prong outlet - do not use 2-prong adapters/extension cords/power strips.

Since I have no choice due to where I had to place the appliances, I am using adapters on the refers and freezer. I figure they specify not to use them for a reason, but, I have never had any problems using the adapters - so is this insistence by manufacturers to not use them pretty much for CYA/liability reasons?

Anyway, sorry for the long posts and Thanks again! :)

I am always impressed by the diversity of expertise in many fields to be found here on TC. :D And thanks to all for taking your time to answer my questions. :thumbsup:

The main reason I asked about the outlets is I just bought one of those EdenPure electric heaters. And, as with the fairly new refers and freezer I've got here, the instructions say to plug it into a 3-prong outlet - do not use 2-prong adapters/extension cords/power strips.

Since I have no choice due to where I had to place the appliances, I am using adapters on the refers and freezer. I figure they specify not to use them for a reason, but, I have never had any problems using the adapters - so is this insistence by manufacturers to not use them pretty much for CYA/liability reasons?

Anyway, sorry for the long posts and Thanks again! :)

Hey man not a problem with the post helps keep the ol brain ALIVE! and what we are here for
please just keep a check on the adapters and do install them correctly with the screw in the center. Until you can make more safe.
CYA sometimes!

Dave, it's typical that the appliance's chassis is intended to be bonded to the ground.

The three prong adapter is basically tying the appliance ground to the house's neutral if you are capturing the adapter's little terminal under the outlet screw. If something fails in the appliance, the chassis could become energized; and you "could" make up the ground path and get a shock.

If you are not doing this, then the appliance ground isn't connected to anything. If something fails and the chassis becomes energized, you "will" become the ground path.

FYI guys, the webpage with the picture of the meter contains a virus. Make sure you scan if you linked to that webapage to see a closeup of the meter.

If you are not doing this, then the appliance ground isn't connected to anything. If something fails and the chassis becomes energized, you "will" become the ground path.

We don't want that to happen, now do we? :) I'll get those adapters properly installed soon. Thanks, Barry and Zeke! :D

FYI guys, the webpage with the picture of the meter contains a virus. Make sure you scan if you linked to that webapage to see a closeup of the meter.

I posted it and went right through image shack. I have 4 diffent anti virus programs on my computer and none pop up a warning whatsoever when I click on that link.

Whats the deal with that?

Jeff

FYI guys, the webpage with the picture of the meter contains a virus. Make sure you scan if you linked to that webapage to see a closeup of the meter.

Hu, I saved it blew it up and scanned it, no virus that I see.
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The Neutral and a bond ground are two different things.
The adapter is not tying the bond to the neutral.

Connecting the three prong adapter to the cover's center screw is probably connecting it to nothing if there is no ground.

I posted it and went right through image shack. I have 4 diffent anti virus programs on my computer and none pop up a warning whatsoever when I click on that link.

Whats the deal with that?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Using Multiple AV programs at the same time (running) can cause serious problems. You only need to run one GOOD one. Which ones are you running?

Hu, I saved it blew it up and scanned it, no virus that I see.
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The Neutral and a bond ground are two different things.
The adapter is not tying the bond to the neutral.

Connecting the three prong adapter to the cover's center screw is probably connecting it to nothing if there is no ground.

Hi Dean,
I haven't had the time to check where the virus is hiding but it doesn't necessarily have to be attached to the picture, it can be attached to the webpage itself or a pop-up. I checked it with both Symantec (Norton) and Kaspersky and they both show the same thing.

If you guys are using cheap (read free) AV software, it's time to upgrade.

Mike

Hi Jeff,
Using Multiple AV programs at the same time (running) can cause serious problems. You only need to run one GOOD one. Which ones are you running?



Hi Dean,
I haven't had the time to check where the virus is hiding but it doesn't necessarily have to be attached to the picture, it can be attached to the webpage itself or a pop-up. I checked it with both Symantec (Norton) and Kaspersky and they both show the same thing.

If you guys are using cheap (read free) AV software, it's time to upgrade.

Mike

I just opened the page with Symantic running, it didn't complain. All the popups were blocked though.