just thought id see what everyone is using ive got a 69 with all the suspension redone, springs, 1 1/4 sway, new steering, poly bushings everywhere edelbrock setup in the rear and was curious to see what you guys thought about using the stock steering box every magazine suspension build up i see says that you should replace the old one but im not really convinced.... my car is just going to be a street car crusier on weekends, but with everything else replaced and upgraded why stop now right? anybodys 2 cents would be appreciated!!

Which box do you have? I don't remember what the cut off was when they switched to the 3 1/2 turn box. I bought a Buick GS box thinking I had the 4 1/2 turn box and I actually had the 3 1/2 doh! graemlins/clonk.gif I dont see getting a better ratio box for my car, but I'm sure some people do.

I'm using an '85 Monte SS box in my '67.
John

what is the correct way to determine the ratio of your existing steering box ive got all the steering components off the frame for painting? I believe it is the stock malibu box..... but you never know

Only way that I know of is to turn it to one side until it stops. Then crank it back to the other side and count the times the steering wheel goes around until it stops again.

There were two steering gears used on Chevelles in 1969. If you are extremely lucky, you may be able to find a tag or an ink stamp on the aluminum end cover or on the aluminum side cover. The AH code was used on all 6 and 8 cylinder cars and was a 17.5:1 ratio gear. This gear would have 4.2 revolutions of the input shaft full lock to full lock.

The other gear had a AU code and was used on the SS Chevelles. This gear was a variable ratio. It had a 16:1 ratio over center and a 12.4:1 ratio near full lock. I don't know how to calculate the number of revolutions full lock to full lock for a variable ratio gear. But the number of turns will be less than 3 3/4.

Another way to check this gear would be to use a protractor on the output shaft of the gear and measure the angle that the shaft moves over center and measure the angle that the input shaft moves at the same time. The ratio of input shaft angle to output shaft angle will be your
overcenter ratio. The calculation should yield a ratio of 16:1 if the gear is a SS gear.

Doing the same measurement near full lock should yield a ratio of 12.4:1.

i spun the input shaft from end to end and it spun about 6 1/4 times from one side to the other it got a little stiff in the middle at about 3 rotations, but from what you said im not sure this is correct

Well from what I have read here I have 2 variable ratio boxes. Bummer I thought I had a 3 turn box. Looks like I will need to get that Napa 2 1/2 steering box I read about since I'm not paying for an aftermarket one. Sorry if I gave you any wrong info. graemlins/clonk.gif

hey man no problem!! i put this post on to learn myself so if the info helps other people out while im learning its just an added bonus im assuming now that the lower turns the input shaft the better performance 2 1/2 turns would mean more control of your steering if mine turns 6 1/4 times crank to crank I would be turning the wheel more for the corner..??

Only way that I know of is to turn it to one side until it stops. Then crank it back to the other side and count the times the
steering wheel goes around until it stops again.
This isn't entirely correct, as different applications have different limits for the travel (the internal stops)...

The correct way is to measure how many degrees both the input and pitman shafts turn from lock-to-lock, and that will be the ratio... Of course, that isn't really easy to do unless you have the tools (maybe a cam degree wheel will work?)...

Some of the later boxes (like the Monte Carlo and Camaro) might be quick ratio boxes, but they don't have the same travel as a stock Chevelle. For usual driving this is fine, but it might increase your turning radius for sharp turns like u-turns...


I ended up getting an AGR box through Summit. Its new (well, rebuilt and new parts), and uses the same input and hose fittings as the old Chevelle. Truly a bolt-in that doesn't require the ragjoint, etc to adapt... Looks and performs excellently...

I just dawned on me that you are talking about a manual steering gear if you have over 6 turns lock to lock! I mostly think power steering gears rather than manual. So you want a fast ratio manual gear. Unfortunately, I don't have much info on A-car manual steering gears. The production manual gear had a 24:1 ratio. You will never be happy trying to steer the car on the road with manual ratios around 14:1.

yeah i forgot to mention that its a manual box i guess if i wanted to take advantage of the components throw a power steering box in there i would just have to add the lines and the pump thats a little more than i first planned, but im assuming it will be well worth it....

Flaming River makes "new" manual boxes with 20:1 and 16:1 ratios... Both iron and aluminum boxes... $500-$700 at Summit thoug :eek:

If you go power, then you might wanna check out the Grand Cherokee boxes (up to 1996), easy and cheap to get, perfect fit on my 71, work great and they have a small ratio.
You'll have to get some inserts and a new ragjoint though, which you'd have to get anyways.

I have to add, I'm not sure if the fit is the same on a 69 though... :confused:

Olli

damn thats a bit of coin yeah ill have to try to find a new power box i might drive around with the manual when i get it going! and see how it feels then upgrade...... thanks for all the help graemlins/beers.gif

See now I'm starting to wonder. Is the variable box in the 69 - 72 a bad box? 3 - 3 1/2 turns doesnt seem that bad. Is this the box that everyone seems to want to replace? I guess I have myself really confused now graemlins/clonk.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33589&item=2475705938&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Is this the Jeep box everyone is talking about?

Originally posted by 70 Elco Joe:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33589&item=2475705938&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Is this the Jeep box everyone is talking about? Yup, thats it.

$30 seems pretty cheap for a steering box. How hard is it to find a rag joint and spacers for the pitman arm?

The old 1960s and early 70s Saginaw variable ratio power steering gears had a reduced number of turns lock to lock. However, don't forget that the old variable ratio gears had the slow ratio (higher number) right on center. They had the faster ratio as you neared full lock. So the total number of turns lock to lock wasn't too bad. But they were very slow right on center (16:1 or 15:1). So with those old gears you don't have that modern, sporty feel going down the road.

The Caprice (1988-96 w/F41, FE2, FE3, & Police), Monte Carlo SS(1983-92), a few Buicks (1994-95 w/FE), and the Jeep Grand Cherokee (1992-98)all had 12.4:1 straight ratio gears. These gears also had roughly the overall pitman shaft travel of the early Chevelles. These gears would also bolt directly into the early A-cars.

Now this swap has caught my interest. As a Jeep tech I have plenty of access to old parts, my question is about the lines and rag joint. I searched the archives and could not find any mention other than call Lee-has anyone come up with anything at the local level? Something you can pick up at the nearest autozone? BTW, the steering box in question fits pretty much all Jeeps(Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee) built from 1984-2001 except Grand Cherokee then its only until 1998.

Go to www.corvetterfaq.com/A-car.asp (http://www.corvettefaq.com/A-car.asp) and download the very first paper:

A-Car Fast Ratio Steering Gear Upgrade Instructions - 6 pages

It will give you several tips as to where to get the flexible couplings that fit later model gears.

BTW, most Saginaw gears will bolt right into a great number of different vehicles (i.e. all the way from 1965 Chevelles to the 1998 Grand Cherokees) with only minor variations.

I had an extra "r" in the link address. It's fixed now, sorry for the inconvenience.

Jim-link isn't working, try www.corvettefaq.com/A-car.asp (http://www.corvettefaq.com/A-car.asp)

that works much better, thanks for the helpful info, I like that site, lots of good info that can be applied to A bodies

I did that swap with the Grand Cherokee Box and I did it with the help of Jim's that very document.
I want to say thank you to Jim for providing us with all those valuable instructions. I really appreciate it. Without you people would most probably only buy expensive aftermarket boxes instead of using the great used boxes that you recommend. That's saving us a lot of money and reusing parts is good for the environment too, isn't it?

Jim, you rule! graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Thanks a lot also for the help of TC's Doug and Phil who were sending me the inserts and a used rag joint to Germany.

Olli

Thats a great document. Can you use the pump that matches the steering box, or do you have to convert one from a similar year? I saw the part where you took the discharge out of the pump in the later models. Just curious if you can bolt the pump from the late model in the Chevelle/El Camino's.

Originally posted by JIML82:
and the Jeep Grand Cherokee (1992-98)all had 12.4:1 straight ratio gears. Jim,
Did you ever get a chance to discuss with some of your ol' Saginaw engineers if the Jeep speed sensing steering on the '92.5-'98 was also the 12.7:1 box?

Joe

Joe-in my 7 years as a Jeep tech I have never seen a Jeep with speed sens steering, we use it on the 300 and LH line-up as well as some of the high line cirrus/stratus put never seen a Jeep with it. Also I ran the part number for a 98 Jeep box in the system it changes numbers a bunch of times and in the end it fits pretty much every Jeep produced from 1984-1998.

Originally posted by dennis68:
Joe-in my 7 years as a Jeep tech I have never seen a Jeep with speed sens steering, we use it on the 300 and LH line-up as well as some of the high line cirrus/stratus put never seen a Jeep with it. Also I ran the part number for a 98 Jeep box in the system it changes numbers a bunch of times and in the end it fits pretty much every Jeep produced from 1984-1998. Hmmm, I wonder how rare it is or if it has anything to do with the steering box - maybe its just has to do with the pump :confused:

I have a close friend with a '96 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited with "speed proportioned steering".

Joe

My bad----just thought about it. I had never run into doing boxes because they are all the same. The pumps however have pressure limiting valves on some models based on pump rpm's.

I am probably never going to get you guys off of the "pressure limiting pump" comments. But trust me, nobody limits the pressure. (Regardless of the comments in the Flaming River add.)

If you cut way back on the flow out of the pump, you can make the gear valve less responsive and the steering will feel heavier. You can also change the torsion bar in the gear valve and the steering will feel heavier. When you turn your steering wheel and therefore turn your steering gear valve and twist the torsion bar inside the valve, you begin to restrict flow through the valve and the pump starts to generate pressure.

The pump is going to generate pressure regardless of engine speed. If you run out of pressure, your steering effort is all of a sudden going to feel heavier than manual steering. You certainly don't want that type of feel in your steering. If it happens at all, it should only happen as you near full lock when you are stopped. (That is the steering maneuver that requires the most pressure.)

My apologies, I have not been able to get back out to Delphi Saginaw Steering to try and look up the Jeep Grand Cherokee gear that was released for EVO. Hopefully, by the end of the week.

Jim, I'm not sure I follow but I have a 96 ZJ in my stall right now and I'm lookin at the pressure limiting valve on the pressure line at the pump as we speak(or type).Please further explain, I have already had my parts guys check there are no different steering gears for with or without speed pro steering.

Jim-I thought about it on the way home, I think I get it. The pump output pressure is variable and always runs at max(1200-1400 I think). The valve is flow control so that no matter how much volume gets to the gear the pressure is still there. That is how steering feel is controlled. So--if you didn't have variable control and wanted to change how "heavy" the steering was you could "adjust" your pressure spring in your pump discharge port to create the same affect,no.

If you have a free flowing circuit, you have a pump that is developing very little pressure. (A flow of about 2 gallons per minute through a typical power steering circuit causes about 50 psi of back pressure.) The pump has a flow valve that regulates the pump output flow to a precise amount (usually between 2 and 3 gallons per minute.)

The gear valve is open center. (Either a linear valve such as the C2/C3 Corvette or a rotary valve such as the integral power Saginaw recirculating ball gear.) The restriction in the gear valve is part of the 50 psi. Now when you turn the steering wheel the valve starts to shift and it diverts a portion of the flow either to the right side of the assist piston or to the left side.

All the flow can do to the piston is push it a short distance, (right turn or left turn). But the valve is now restricting flow so the pump will develope pressure proportional to the restriction. When you complete your turn the valve opens to free flow.