For those who went EFI, was it worth the time/effort/$$$? Or, if you could go back in time would you just have left the carb on there?

I figure all the people with good experiences step up, like to hear from folks that werent so happy, and why.

everything I build is EFI now, and has been for the last 15 years. No reason to use a carb, for me at least.

Jody

i'm running an efi lt1 engine. its nice having great drivability, decent mpg and good track times. another benefit (for efi lt1s), they dont seem to need as much gear as the carb.'d setup. i've tried from 3.50-4.56 gears in another car and saw no change in e.t.s. my current chevelle runs the same with 3.55 gears as it did with 3.08s.

Have been running a 94 LT1 efi engine for 5 years and 40K miles now in a 67 300 deluxe. Would not go carb now. :thumbsup:

I would have kept it carb and spent the $$$$ on some aftermarket aluminum heads. I think the fun factor would have been better

that said, Im using almost the same setup on a new turbocharged 5.3 im building

If I could just work out what seems like a fuel pressure drop, with the motor not stalling but going soft under full power after a few seconds,,then I would like it a lot better...

im going lsx. its really the only way to go.
no more carb stuff.. lol


aaron

I did the work for and LS1 swap and I am not looking back. For a car that is gonna be driven alot in various weather and for long distances its tough to beat. I could understand having a Carb in a car that is only driven in nice weather but even then the EFI is nice.

Maybe the carb cars I have driven aren't tuned the best, but every time I think, "I'd run a carb on something maybe", after I drive one, I wouldn't. And to be specific, I'm talking more about the startup and warmup. Once the engine is warm on a decent carb, they are "ok". However, once you get used to idle control, timing control, and 25 other things (me anyhow), I still wouldn't go back.

After being used to my 255@.050 solid roller just starting up through the window and driving off, and running "perfect" all the time, I just couldn't go back.

i agree with doug and neal. even though my lt1 has just bolt ons, its nice to get in it when its less than 40*, hit the key and leave two black marks down my street while still cold. i couldnt dream of that until the velle reaches operating temp.

the tunability of an efi is just great, you have so many different fuel logs to adjust and watch that will effect everything from lowend to high end, and everything in between.

nicest thing about the LT1 atleast is the kansas flat tq curve, i sometimes think that car runs stronger than my heads and cam chevelle..

aaron

If I could just work out what seems like a fuel pressure drop, with the motor not stalling but going soft under full power after a few seconds,,then I would like it a lot better...

Sounds like fuel pump...

I have had a few problems like this. Had to put a second in line pump in the system to keep mine from falling over above 5K RPM. It was a little Bosch pump in the tank.

I would do it again, no more carbs. It would be a lot cheaper this time...

Ron

Probably my biggest fear of EFI is being left stranded somewhere due to component failure. I know this is a non-issue for the OE's, but I'm not sure if the aftermarket stuff is on the same level.

Probably my biggest fear of EFI is being left stranded somewhere due to component failure. I know this is a non-issue for the OE's, but I'm not sure if the aftermarket stuff is on the same level.

Legitiamate concern. Couple comments, electronics usually fail quick, if they are going to fail (infant mortality deal). Other than that, it 95% comes down to install. Shorted/chafing wires, etc. Do the install correctly.

Most of the sensors are all "oem".

Probably my biggest fear of EFI is being left stranded somewhere due to component failure. I know this is a non-issue for the OE's, but I'm not sure if the aftermarket stuff is on the same level.


Whats the difference between that and a carb? Show me a parts store that carries jets if yours get clogged. How about a gasket kit for anything other than a q-jet? Alot of the electronic stuff has tell tale signs when stuff starts to wear. Sensors will typically give strange readings way before they completely fail. Electric pumps will typically give you problems at high rpms before they completely burn up.

Plus, ALOT of aftermarket systems use stock/o.e. sensors and components. Typically the only thing that isn't, is the ecm. The chance of the whole ecm going bad is pretty unlikely but serves the same threat as an msd box going bad, most parts stores don't stock those either.

Whats the difference between that and a carb? Show me a parts store that carries jets if yours get clogged. How about a gasket kit for anything other than a q-jet? Alot of the electronic stuff has tell tale signs when stuff starts to wear. Sensors will typically give strange readings way before they completely fail. Electric pumps will typically give you problems at high rpms before they completely burn up.

Plus, ALOT of aftermarket systems use stock/o.e. sensors and components. Typically the only thing that isn't, is the ecm. The chance of the whole ecm going bad is pretty unlikely but serves the same threat as an msd box going bad, most parts stores don't stock those either.


We'll, lets start with miles of wiring, the sensors (admittedly they are pretty reliable), the ECU with contains an untold amount of electronic components, yes the fuel pump too. This is just naming a few things. Not much to go wrong with a carb other than a needle/seat getting clogged and flooding my motor, and I dont even need extra one as I can just clean the one that I have out. As far as ignition, what's the chances of an HEI going bad? If it does, I have an extra module in the glove box.

This is not a comparison to OE stuff...we know that stuff is more than reliable.

I just wonder - for the occassional drivers like most of us are, is it worth the added expense and complexity of EFI. If the car is used quite often, I think that changes everything.

I like my Holley EFI can't imagine that I would ever go back.


Probably my biggest fear of EFI is being left stranded somewhere due to component failure. I know this is a non-issue for the OE's, but I'm not sure if the aftermarket stuff is on the same level.

My Holley setup is mix and match parts but...I have the application for each so if I have to I can pickup a part at the parts store to get me up and running. Heck...everything in my camaro is mix and match (cadillac rear disc brakes, 2004R, lincoln electric fan, etc, etc) I guess, LOL!


We'll, lets start with miles of wiring

The Holley setups that I installed were pretty easy...much easier to understand and less wires than factory harness on a chevelle or camaro.


the sensors (admittedly they are pretty reliable), the ECU with contains an untold amount of electronic components, yes the fuel pump too.

I've not had a sensor, ECU, etc go bad...my fuel pump was too small and had to install a higher capacity one. Was stranded once because the distributor module burned up...which was my fault as I bought a distributor and didn't check to make sure there was sufficient grease under the module.


I just wonder - for the occassional drivers like most of us are, is it worth the added expense and complexity of EFI. If the car is used quite often, I think that changes everything.

It depends I guess...I had the money and wanted to do it so I did. There was no "need" for it, I just thought it would be cool which it is but there were many frustrations during the learning process...but that's no different than anything I've ever tried.

Went to EFI approx 9 yrs ago. Would never go back to carb. The reliability to me is better than carb. Just like anything buy the good parts and install correctly and you will have years of enjoyment. You wouldn't get good liability out of cheap carb either. Look at the oem stuff, its nothing to go 150,000 miles plus.

The ecu is definitely a part to be concerned about. If you choose holley or megasquirt, you will usually be planning your next retrofit, and have a spare module on hand that can serve as a spare.
You can buy a new assembled Megasquirt II for $400 and have your program already loaded and ready to go.
If you did the assembly on your ecu chances are you can repair it for very little. Just about all of the componets are readily available and cost very little. If the processor goes out, it is a plug in daughtercard and sells for $100.
The Holley ecu goes for about $500.
Squido

Funny to see this poll, I am actually considering ditching the BBC in my blue 72' in favor of an LS series engine with EFI. The heads & cam set up in my 4th Gen is docile and runs 10's. It also delivers over 20 MPG on the highway. IMHO, a BBC that could run those #'s would never deliver that kind of fuel mileage - even with EFI. Not to mention the cost difference.

I've done several TPI swaps in older vehicles, it works well...but the ECM is archaic at best. I have the software, etc and do my own tuning with a WB on the street. But, the GM 411 PCM used in many 99' - up GM vehicles blows it away. I am planning to toss the 7730 ECM in my 91' in favor of a 411 PCM and LS1 coil pack swap. EFI Connection has pefected the swap and components. It's all too easy to do the swap now. If I had a late model BBC block, I could use a 96'-99' 454 timing cover and use the same PCM and coils as an SBC conversion. The idea has crossed my mind... to pop the hood and see a big block definately has a cool factor.

Funny to see this poll, I am actually considering ditching the BBC in my blue 72' in favor of an LS series engine with EFI. The heads & cam set up in my 4th Gen is docile and runs 10's. It also delivers over 20 MPG on the highway. IMHO, a BBC that could run those #'s would never deliver that kind of fuel mileage - even with EFI. Not to mention the cost difference.

I've done several TPI swaps in older vehicles, it works well...but the ECM is archaic at best. I have the software, etc and do my own tuning with a WB on the street. But, the GM 411 PCM used in many 99' - up GM vehicles blows it away. I am planning to toss the 7730 ECM in my 91' in favor of a 411 PCM and LS1 coil pack swap. EFI Connection has pefected the swap and components. It's all too easy to do the swap now. If I had a late model BBC block, I could use a 96'-99' 454 timing cover and use the same PCM and coils as an SBC conversion. The idea has crossed my mind... to pop the hood and see a big block definately has a cool factor.

You have a nice bunch of cars there..

Since my 406 doesn't fit into either EFI or carb category, I would like to make a comment about a third choice: continuous flow mechanical FI. When John Dolza was asked to design an FI system for the Corvette, he brought his experience with aircraft FI design. He knew his aircraft designs would hold up in car engines. Early aircraft designs were very simple compared to EFI. Like the Hilborn and other continuos flow systems, they use a pump, nozzles, and bypass to meter fuel. The airplane engines used an adjustable pill, something like a tapered needle through the pill that could be adjusted within a narrow range. Simply adjusting the mixture to get the required head temp was all that was needed to keep the engine happy.

Dolza's modification to the Rochester FI was to use an adjustable "pill" that would sense airflow and manifold vacuum. Contrary to popular belief, the Rochester adjusted to differences in air density by using a pitot tube type of air pressure measurement system that adapted to changes in the weather.

To me, it is semi amazing the way any properly working FI system will calm down a wild cam. Although the Rochester uses a vacuum metering system, the vacuum required is measured in inches of water, using a signal as low as 1/4" W.C. vacuum to meter fuel. I set my rich and lean stops on Bob Stiegemeier's chassis dyno, and Bob was impressed by how flat the fuel curve was, and that it bumped itself up in the max torque RPM range without any changes being made. Pretty neat system for something that got such a bum rap while it was being made.

The Rochester FI saved at least 10% fuel over any carb system. It could have EASILY been adapted to any and all engines made by GM. The problem with the early FI was an ignition problem, not being able to cope with raw fuel on the plugs during warmup. CD ignition or a different plug location could have changed that.

There were about 16,000 Rochester FI's produced. A lot of people replaced them with a 4 BBL. I know one guy who used his for target practice. The Rochester FI was just misunderstood. Compared to EFI, the Rochester is infinitely more simple and will produce similar results with zero electronics and rich and lean stops you can set and forget.

Someone told me Kinsler bought the Rochester casting dies, but don't know for a fact.

"Compared to EFI, the Rochester is infinitely more simple and will produce similar results with zero electronics and rich and lean stops you can set and forget."

I'm not so sure I can agree is would be simpler to tune (certainly on a wide range of engines), although I haven't tuned one so I won't comment from experience. The new EFI system we are coming out with will have a self tuning fuel table, you can, if you want to change the baseline settings, type in the a/f ratio you want in a 16x16 table to have it self tune to that A/F at any RPM and load. You just drive around and it will tune itself.

Anything mechanical I've dealt with always is a compromise of some sort, meaning you change something and it has to affect another area you may not want to have changed. That is the benefit of an electronics based system.

I did read a technical article on the rochestor FI a long time ago and it definately was ahead of its time and was impressed with what they did with mechanical devices. But I just thought: That all goes away with an electronic fuel injector!

Doug F.
What new system are you referring to?

Any system can and will be tweaked to deliver good performance. As simple as FI sounds, it is sensitive to injector design, spray patterns, nozzle placement in the manifold, system pressure being properly regulated, etc. The real problem with carbs is one of manifolding and overcoming rich and lean cylinders. In that area, FI wins hands down.

Then there is the restriction thing. A carb must have a restriction to create the venturi effect of lowering air pressure so gas can be pushed in by atmospheric pressure. FI needs no restriction to operate.

Diesels have been using mechanical fuel injection for 100 years, and it is still being improved upon.

My take on all of this is: If you screw around with it long enough, you can get it to work.

FWIW, I have a friend in Tucson that is NOT happy with his EFI. Can't remember the brand, but will find out.

Doug F.
What new system are you referring to?

One I'm working on for Holley. Will debut next week at the SEMA show.

One I'm working on for Holley. Will debut next week at the SEMA show.

How long before it is unveiled to the general public ?

How long before it is unveiled to the general public ?

The SEMA show is pretty much considered the unveiling, so information about it would be open to the public after that.

Funny to see this poll, I am actually considering ditching the BBC in my blue 72' in favor of an LS series engine with EFI. The heads & cam set up in my 4th Gen is docile and runs 10's. It also delivers over 20 MPG on the highway. IMHO, a BBC that could run those #'s would never deliver that kind of fuel mileage - even with EFI. Not to mention the cost difference.

I've done several TPI swaps in older vehicles, it works well...but the ECM is archaic at best. I have the software, etc and do my own tuning with a WB on the street. But, the GM 411 PCM used in many 99' - up GM vehicles blows it away. I am planning to toss the 7730 ECM in my 91' in favor of a 411 PCM and LS1 coil pack swap. EFI Connection has pefected the swap and components. It's all too easy to do the swap now. If I had a late model BBC block, I could use a 96'-99' 454 timing cover and use the same PCM and coils as an SBC conversion. The idea has crossed my mind... to pop the hood and see a big block definately has a cool factor.

I found the efi connection LSx computer conversion discussed some on CZ28.com Has anyone on the forum used it or know of a forum where it has been discussed? As a former C5 guy I like the tuning options for the LSx world and even have a 99 f-body PCM sitting around.

Would Vortec8100 valve covers have enough room for roller rockers and a ~600 lift cam or do they even bolt to traditional heads?

To me, it is semi amazing the way any properly working FI system will calm down a wild cam. Although the Rochester uses a vacuum metering system, the vacuum required is measured in inches of water, using a signal as low as 1/4" W.C. vacuum to meter fuel. I set my rich and lean stops on Bob Stiegemeier's chassis dyno, and Bob was impressed by how flat the fuel curve was, and that it bumped itself up in the max torque RPM range without any changes being made. Pretty neat system for something that got such a bum rap while it was being made.

If you don't mind me asking what did you turn on the dyno? I'd love to see more of your build and have always found the old fuelies interesting. Very unique project :cool:

I found the efi connection LSx computer conversion discussed some on CZ28.com Has anyone on the forum used it or know of a forum where it has been discussed? As a former C5 guy I like the tuning options for the LSx world and even have a 99 f-body PCM sitting around.

Would Vortec8100 valve covers have enough room for roller rockers and a ~600 lift cam or do they even bolt to traditional heads?

I know there is a sticky about it on Thirdgen.org - mainly discussing it for use on traditional SBC's. I spoke to one of the R&D guys last year about using it on a BBC application. He told me if I used newer block that could accept the 96'-99' 454 truck timing cover - it would be the same as installing it on a SBC and function the same.

As for the 8.1L valve covers, I thought 8.1L - even though similar to the smaller LS engines, the parts such as heads, etc were all speciffic to that engine.

Any links to those discussions? My 502 has that late model timing cover for some sort of sensor...like a crank trigger or CPS.

Any links to those discussions? My 502 has that late model timing cover for some sort of sensor...like a crank trigger or CPS.

http://www.sethirdgen.org/forums/forum/showpost.php?p=53049&postcount=20

Check that out, might be what you're looking for.

Thanks for the link Brian, looks very interesting.

Thanks for the link Brian, looks very interesting.

:thumbsup: Glad to help. I just wish I could get my hands on a used 96'-99' 454 timing cover to test fit it on an older BBC. If it will fit, that solves a lot of problems. If not, I'm going to play hell hunting down a good used 96' - 99' block.

Brian, you can find those covers on ebay used all the time, "502 cover". They will not work with a MKIV block, totally different.

The system from EFI connection...by the time you get the ECU, reluctors, wiring harness, coils, etc., were getting up there in price pretty fast. Then you still need the usual intake, injectors, etc., etc. Doesnt seem cost effective, unless I'm missing something here??

Brian, you can find those covers on ebay used all the time, "502 cover". They will not work with a MKIV block, totally different.

The system from EFI connection...by the time you get the ECU, reluctors, wiring harness, coils, etc., were getting up there in price pretty fast. Then you still need the usual intake, injectors, etc., etc. Doesnt seem cost effective, unless I'm missing something here??

If you buy everything directly from them - yes. Gets well over $1K fast. I have some parts kicking around that I have little or no money invested into. Plus it would be nice to have the 72', my 91', and my 2000 all running the same ECM. I would invest in my own copy of HP Tuners at that point.

I'm still not 100% sure what I'm going to do yet as far as an engine in the 72'. I know whatever I put in that car has to be EFI, I have no patience for carbs.

I took the TBI off my SBC powered Jeep because I couldn't get it tuned very well...I want to put it back on...is there a decent place in the mid-atlantic areaa I can take it for some help??

I would love to put it on the Chevelle, but it's only 600cfm, not nearly enough for the 383. :(

my opinion is unless you are retrofitting a newer engine with factory fuel injection then its not worth the trouble. a correctly tuned carb is hard to beat . look at the latest engine master challenge. they allowed fi as well as any carbureted setup this year.the tunnel ram type manifolds with two four barrels or i.r. with webers etc. soundly beat everything else.the fuel distribution problems are solved with set ups like these and single 4 manifolds can be made to get pretty close. dont get me wrong. i like f.i. just dont expect better power production. they might have a bit of an edge as far as drivability is concerned on a wild cammed street car if its tuned right but a carb can be right with it there too. i like the factory based systems much more than aftermarket

my opinion is unless you are retrofitting a newer engine with factory fuel injection then its not worth the trouble. a correctly tuned carb is hard to beat .

ROTFLMFAO!!! Sorry Gary, to each thier own, of course.

You don't see the benefits on a dyno. you are 100% correct, at WOT, full load, 4000rpm and up, there is zero gain to be had over a well tuned carb.

When I reach in the window and twist the key, outside temp is 10, and she pops to life and instantly settles to an 850 rpm idle, that's EFI.

When I'm rolling along in first, idling thru the 4rth of july parade without a single cough or burp (from the car..) that's EFI.

When I drive my vert to Yellowstone and back, spend 2 full weeks on the road, cover 3000 miles, never open the hood, and average 23 MPG, that's efi.

And when I take the same car, still without opening the hood, to Byron dragway 2 weeks later and rip off some 12 second qtrs on street tires, that gentleman is EFI.

BTW, congrats on your very own EFI forum, it's been a long time since I've been here, first time I've seen this. Anyone need any help with v3 Holley syuff, give me a holler.

There is something to be said for all the + benefits of EFI when all is right they are hard to beat. However when something goes its extremely irritating and cant always be diagnosed/fixed in a parking lot, been there a whole bunch of times. On these types of cars its a carb for me.

Jim.
What EFI system are you running. Can't tell from the picture.

Jon, I'm running a Holley TBI system I bought used from a guy on Team Camaro, cost me $700. I like it because it's stealthy, completely hidden under the air cleaner, you can't see any wires and have to look hard to find the fuel lines.

I generally stay out of the TBI vs port injection debates, yes they say port is better. Yes, my system uses the same electronics any holley EFI uses, IAC, wideband o2 electronic timing control, etc, it's all there

Here's a pic with the air cleaner off
http://www.Jimragtop.com/TC/tbi.jpg

Worth noting, walking the pits in Las Vegas at the Street Machine Nationals this fall, there were almost zero sub 10 second cars that didn't have efi....

Brian, you can find those covers on ebay used all the time, "502 cover". They will not work with a MKIV block, totally different.

The system from EFI connection...by the time you get the ECU, reluctors, wiring harness, coils, etc., were getting up there in price pretty fast. Then you still need the usual intake, injectors, etc., etc. Doesnt seem cost effective, unless I'm missing something here??

Do you know if a double roller timing chain can be run on the Gen 6 motor and the reluctor wheel?

I'll be running EFI on anything else I put together. Right now I'm running the Holley commander intake, F.A.S.T. ecm, distributor, and 36lbs/h injectors. Like alot of others say it's great to jump in and turn the keys and just drive away. Leaving a BIG smokey patch

I agree with you, most of these guys run small blocks We have big ci BB I'm sticking with a carb and having a carb specialist re work it for the best all around performance.