Thinking about using a 52" length of 1" copper pipe.

I have all the copper on hand & am real good at soldering.

Would hold .7 quarts. Long pipe would help keep bubbles away from the high pressure pump exit port at the bottom end.

Would mount it across frame between engine & my radiator electric fan, high end on passenger side.

3 ports at the top end: low pressure pump supply & return to standard gas tank + EFI pressure regulator return.

It would get air flow across it.

What do you think?

BBP

I guess I'm not familiar enough with EFI. What is the purpose of the surge tank?

There is actually almost no pressure inside a surge tank. The low pressure return line to the gas tank fights no back-pressure.

High pressure EFI electric fuel pumps have a habit of going bad. They are very poor at self-priming when gas sloshes around in gas tank. This can kill engine & quickly kills pumps.

Many use a small surge tank as a buffer tank to make sure that the high pressure pump never draws air.

A low pressure/high volume pump is very good at self-priming. It runs constantly with key on & keeps the surge tank full & excess is returned to gas tank.

A surge tank has the high pressure pumps pickup in the bottom. The excess gas from the EFI regulator returns to the top.

BBP

For what little this may be worth I have 2X255gph Walbro pumps in my tank sitting in a trapdoor'd well. IE:fuel can slosh in but once in it cannot get out. So far I have not experienced any starvation up to redline. The return line is routed into the well in which the pumps feed from.

Just to add for anyone who hasn't seen it yet the moderators just started a new EFI sub-forum in the Performance section.

Surge tank running horizontal will be much less effective than a vertical tank.

Running a surge tank along these lines, I would look at "surge tank" on Ebay. Lots of pre-fab tanks that would probably bolt in over in the dead space outside the battery.

The other rub is putting a fuel tank on the periphery of the car makes it more prone to crash damage. Might not be a good thing.

Humm, I don't know that I would trust the soldering over time at 50PSI (pressure to atmosphere). It might be OK, as most water lines run 40 to 50 PSI. Just uncomfortable with the idea because it is gasoline.

Ron

Surge tanks do not run at high pressure though ;)

Surge tanks do not run at high pressure though ;)

Wouldn't it depend on the set up? In my application the surge tank would come after the in tank fuel pump, and most of the time would be under pressure. The return line would come back to the surge tank also, not the main fuel tank.

If the pump were not in the tank I would agree.

Ron

As I am picturing/understanding it, the purpose of a surge tank is to provide constant fuel feed to the high pressure pump (and thus the engine). A low pressure pump that re-primes well is used to pull from the tank and feed the surge tank. Engine return feeds back to the surge tank and surge tank overflow feeds back to the tank.

How do you bleed the air out if you feed the surge tank with an in-tank high pressure pump?

As I am picturing/understanding it, the purpose of a surge tank is to provide constant fuel feed to the high pressure pump (and thus the engine). A low pressure pump that re-primes well is used to pull from the tank and feed the surge tank. Engine return feeds back to the surge tank and surge tank overflow feeds back to the tank.

How do you bleed the air out if you feed the surge tank with an in-tank high pressure pump?

Ok, I'll bite. If the high pressure pump in the main tank is feeding the surge tank and (as you point out) the surge tank returns it's over flow to the main tank, wouldn't the air be pushed back into the main tank as the surge tank fills up? After the air is displaced then fuel would be returned to the main tank and the surge tank would then be under pressure.

Did I miss something?

Ok, I'll bite. If the high pressure pump in the main tank is feeding the surge tank and (as you point out) the surge tank returns it's over flow to the main tank, wouldn't the air be pushed back into the main tank as the surge tank fills up? After the air is displaced then fuel would be returned to the main tank and the surge tank would then be under pressure.

Did I miss something?
Hmmm... ok. We are on the same page with respect to air bleeding back to tank as the surge tank fills up. We diverge at the surge tank full being under pressure.

So we have high pressure fuel coming into the surge tank on port A. We need it go out port B at high pressure to the engine. It is supposed to return from the engine into the surge tank at low pressure on port C. And finally excess is supposed to return to the tank out port D also at low pressure.

What makes the fuel go out high pressure port B instead of low pressure port D? If we put a restriction into that port we build back pressure in the overall system which is not a good thing.

Or looking at it another way we have two loops: loop A -- tank to surge and back to tank, and loop B -- surge to engine and back to surge. Without a fuel mover in loop B how does fuel move around that loop?

Hmmm... ok. We are on the same page with respect to air bleeding back to tank as the surge tank fills up. We diverge at the surge tank full being under pressure.

So we have high pressure fuel coming into the surge tank on port A. We need it go out port B at high pressure to the engine. It is supposed to return from the engine into the surge tank at low pressure on port C. And finally excess is supposed to return to the tank out port D also at low pressure.

What makes the fuel go out high pressure port B instead of low pressure port D? If we put a restriction into that port we build back pressure in the overall system which is not a good thing.

Or looking at it another way we have two loops: loop A -- tank to surge and back to tank, and loop B -- surge to engine and back to surge. Without a fuel mover in loop B how does fuel move around that loop?



a low pressure pump feeds the surge tank. It has a line at the top to return the fuel to the tank once it's full; the surge tank is not under pressure unless the return line is too small or restricted. Your main efi pump feeds from the surge tank just like it would normally feed from the gas tank; It also returns the fuel from the fuel pressure regulator to the surge tank.

Picture the surge tank as a large fuel bowl on a carb. If the low pressure pump sucks air briefly on a turn, or due to low level, the efi pump won't hiccup at all as the surge tank is full. You'd have to be pretty much out of fuel in the gas tank for a while before the engine would actually see a loss of fuel pressure.

My thought has always been to have someone like Ricks build me a tank with the surge tank built into the tank. Take a 1-2 gallon section and wall it off with a hole up top to return fuel out of the sectioned area once full. Small feed pump built into the tank feeds this section of surge tank, and then use my normal efi pump and regulator out of the tank, with the tank outlet to the pump and return line into the tank coming from the sectioned off area (surge tank section).

Any pic's of a surge tank installed? So we can use a surge tank with a stock tank? Looks 2 fuel pumps would be needed. I guess the high pressure pumps that typically come with the EFI kits would pump fuel FROM the surge tank to rails? Depending on where the surge tank is mounted, it would be a very short run???

Something like this I guess:

http://i.ebayimg.com/16/!BZI,,wwCGk~$(KGrHgoOKjQEjlLmWWZMBKlJmRQP6Q~~_12.J PG

On EFI conversions typically the surge tank or 'swirl pot' is mounted in the engine compartment. Usually the car's stock fuel line and engine mounted mechanical fuel pump supplies the fuel to the surge tank. If the car did not originally have a return line, one needs to be added. The surge tank then becomes the main fuel supply tank for the high pressure fuel pump that feeds the EFI system. Therefore all the high pressure fuel is contained is a small space.

The problem I envision with a long 1" diameter pipe layed horizontal is air. If it does happen to get a pocket of air, and maybe the tube is bowed a bit, or not absolutely level, then that air could become trapped. And you could end up with the same issue where the high pressure pump sucks air causing loss of fuel pressure to the injectors.

To illustrate, imagine a shallow pie pan and a tall drinking cup both filled with the same amount of water. Now attach them to the passenger floor board and go out for a quick spin around the block. My bet is the G forces will cause the pie pan to be emptied (or at least uncover the bottom), while the cup still contains almost all of it's water. Same principal applies to the surge tank.

A potentially cheap surge tank could be constructed from a discarded a/c system receiver/dryer if you know someone with a TIG welder.

Just to throw this out there...

When I used to work on jetskis/jet boats years back, fuel slosh was an issue. Could you imagine anything that would have fuel slosh more than a jetski or motorcyle? Anyway, the manufacturers would actually use sections of hoses for the pickups and returns, about 10"-12" long. Then, they would install these weighted check-ball ends on the hoses that would follow the fule around in the tank, no matter where it sloshed to. These motors were carbed, and had return lines...and this system worked very well, still used today actually.

Vince
So your thinking of a swinging pickup similar to some of the oil pan pickups?

Anyone check out the tank setup for a G8 or newer LS powered car? I know that it has two pumps/tanks.

Hmmm... ok. We are on the same page with respect to air bleeding back to tank as the surge tank fills up. We diverge at the surge tank full being under pressure.

So we have high pressure fuel coming into the surge tank on port A. We need it go out port B at high pressure to the engine. It is supposed to return from the engine into the surge tank at low pressure on port C. And finally excess is supposed to return to the tank out port D also at low pressure.

What makes the fuel go out high pressure port B instead of low pressure port D? If we put a restriction into that port we build back pressure in the overall system which is not a good thing.

Or looking at it another way we have two loops: loop A -- tank to surge and back to tank, and loop B -- surge to engine and back to surge. Without a fuel mover in loop B how does fuel move around that loop?

Now I see your view point.

In the system I'm trying to describe (and not doing too well) there is a second pump in loop B!

Since (in my car) I can't deliver enough fuel with the single Bosch pump that is in the tank, I have a second in line pump in series with the fuel line to the fuel rails on the engine. My concept was to put the surge tank in the middle (between the two pumps so to speak) but it will mean that the return line to the main tank would be restricted in size in order to main pressure in the surge tank.

Anyone try anything like this?

Any pic's of a surge tank installed? So we can use a surge tank with a stock tank? Looks 2 fuel pumps would be needed. I guess the high pressure pumps that typically come with the EFI kits would pump fuel FROM the surge tank to rails? Depending on where the surge tank is mounted, it would be a very short run???

Something like this I guess:

http://i.ebayimg.com/16/%21BZI,,wwCGk%7E$%28KGrHgoOKjQEjlLmWWZMBKlJmRQP6Q% 7E%7E_12.JPG

Vince, Where did you find that tank? Looks interesting

Ron

Ok guys... been there and tought about that.

R/C planes use the clunk tank concept as well. Not sure I want a flexing piece of tubing buried inside my tank for 10's of thousands of miles with potential fatigue issues.

Another derivative solution is the Walbro self sealing fuel pickup. The idea behind these is you place multiple fuel pickups around the tank. When uncovered they close up so fuel is only pulled from open and submerged pickups. Interesting idea but opted not to use it.

Next up is the surge tank. You can make up a pretty slick surge tank using a water filter cannister. I went so far as to buy all the parts on this one (still have them...). Since it can be opened up, you can embed the high pressure pump inside the surge tank. I wanted to mount it back by the tank on my El Camino. I dropped the concept due to mounting and size issues, the tank was too long to mount vertically. I was also not thrilled with the two pumps.

Being unhappy with the way the surge tank was shaping up I went to the wrecking yard to do some research. I wanted to see how OEMs solve this problem. I found some optimized tank shapes. I found a lot of plastic trays with concentric channels on GM products. And finally looking under a Ford Taurus I found a wide and flat tank much like in our A-bodies. It looked easy to drop so I decided to have a look see and found the fuel pump module. BINGO! One nice tidy module that drops into the tank and incorporates one electric pump, a surge tank, and a venturi jet pump.

So think about how the main fuel circuit in a carb works... air is pushed through the venturi. Because it has to speed up in the venturi it creates a vacuum and sucks fuel. Well the exact same thing happens with the jet pump in a fuel module. Fuel from the high pressure pump is shot through a jet across the suction input from the tank. It pulls fuel from the tank and pushes it up into the top of the surge tank. Since the high pressure pump always (we hope) has fuel, the jet always squirts. The venturi pump is inherently self-priming so it is ideal for a surge filling tank scanvenging pump. This concept is used in the Vette to transfer fuel from one tank to the other with only a single electric pump.

And this concept CAN be implemented using a drop in module with an external pump. Jason/ss396boy and I have been working on just such an item for his EFI setup. There is NO need for custom and/or expensive tanks. And by making your own module you can scale the plumbing for higher horsepower motors.

Steve, is that what it's called - "clunk tank"? Weed wackers and leaf blowers use the same concept I believe. Out of the 100's of boats I've worked on, never saw one broken hose, and they live a very rough life believe me. Question is, where does one find these weighted hose ends in 3/8's?

Vince, Where did you find that tank? Looks interesting

Ron

Ron, go to ebay and search "surge tank". Bunch of stuff. Some is for coolant though.

Ok guys... been there and tought about that.
And this concept CAN be implemented using a drop in module with an external pump. Jason/ss396boy and I have been working on just such an item for his EFI setup. There is NO need for custom and/or expensive tanks. And by making your own module you can scale the plumbing for higher horsepower motors.

I'll be doing a DIY write up soon... stay tuned on finished product :)
First design: (summit overflowtank, hack the top off)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7141/dsc0420o.jpg

Second design: (Stainless water bottle, hack the top off)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7488/dscn0478g.jpg

Now I see your view point.

In the system I'm trying to describe (and not doing too well) there is a second pump in loop B!

Since (in my car) I can't deliver enough fuel with the single Bosch pump that is in the tank, I have a second in line pump in series with the fuel line to the fuel rails on the engine. My concept was to put the surge tank in the middle (between the two pumps so to speak) but it will mean that the return line to the main tank would be restricted in size in order to main pressure in the surge tank.

Anyone try anything like this?
Whew! And I tought maybe you had seen something I had not.

Your idea will work just fine that is a standard surge tank setup. It is a very small delta, you will just be running a "high pressure" pump at low pressure. They will generally work just fine that way and just put out a bit more volume at a bit lower current.

Now the restriction part... that gets a bit riskier because ultimately that becomes a restriction to the EFI regulator up front. That one would scare me. I would probably just make sure the front pump had the output to handle things.

Steve, is that what it's called - "clunk tank"? Weed wackers and leaf blowers use the same concept I believe. Out of the 100's of boats I've worked on, never saw one broken hose, and they live a very rough life believe me. Question is, where does one find these weighted hose ends in 3/8's?
If you really want to go that direction, then make one. You can get brass tubing at any decent hobby store of adequate size. Then solder a brass nut or two onto the end. Instant clunk. Note that these things are not entirely trouble free in R/C planes and have been known to get hung up in the wrong spot. Not such a big deal in a 10 lb or less airplane to shake things loose... but in a 3600 lb car :clonk:

Whew! And I tought maybe you had seen something I had not.

Your idea will work just fine that is a standard surge tank setup. It is a very small delta, you will just be running a "high pressure" pump at low pressure. They will generally work just fine that way and just put out a bit more volume at a bit lower current.

Now the restriction part... that gets a bit riskier because ultimately that becomes a restriction to the EFI regulator up front. That one would scare me. I would probably just make sure the front pump had the output to handle things.


If you really want to go that direction, then make one. You can get brass tubing at any decent hobby store of adequate size. Then solder a brass nut or two onto the end. Instant clunk. Note that these things are not entirely trouble free in R/C planes and have been known to get hung up in the wrong spot. Not such a big deal in a 10 lb or less airplane to shake things loose... but in a 3600 lb car :clonk:


Steve, I think you may be talking about something else entirely different??? Hell, I was thinking of just hose clamping a piece of hose on the end of the factory pickup, and let the hose with the weighted end just follow the fuel.

Sorry for the "hack" nature of this...just brainstorming here.

I have a new stock gas tank & chose not to cut & weld on it to put in a sump & baffles.

Of course, a small diameter external surge tank would not run horizontal. The high pressure pickup port needs to be at the bottom, thus always has fuel above it, and as far away from the top end ports as is reasonable with space constraints.

I have read about a 48" one in some factory sports car, but have lost the link to which car.

My updated plan is to build my own 1.1 quart copper surge tank. 2.5" x 13" Mount it on frame on passenger side of engine. I'm thinking of running the Edelbrock EFI pressure regulator return directly back to the main tank to help dissipate heat & not over heat the surge tank.

For my low pressure / high volume supply pump to the surge tank I'm using a Carter GP4600HP 8#/100GPH, mounted back by the main tank. These re-prime themselves easily without damage as fuel sloshes. The highest port on the surge tank will also return to the main tank.

My high pressure pump is an Edelbrock unit that came with the Pro-Flo system.

BBP

Steve, I think you may be talking about something else entirely different??? Hell, I was thinking of just hose clamping a piece of hose on the end of the factory pickup, and let the hose with the weighted end just follow the fuel.

Sorry for the "hack" nature of this...just brainstorming here.
Well I am guilty of talking about more than one thing at a time, but that seems to be the nature of these thread in EFI land ;) I can also appreciate a good hack just as much as the next guy. Just so you understand the limitations of the hack we are all good :beers:
I have a new stock gas tank & chose not to cut & weld on it to put in a sump & baffles.

Of course, a small diameter external surge tank would not run horizontal. The high pressure pickup port needs to be at the bottom, thus always has fuel above it, and as far away from the top end ports as is reasonable with space constraints.

I have read about a 48" one in some factory sports car, but have lost the link to which car.

My updated plan is to build my own 1.1 quart copper surge tank. 2.5" x 13" Mount it on frame on passenger side of engine. I'm thinking of running the Edelbrock EFI pressure regulator return directly back to the main tank to help dissipate heat & not over heat the surge tank.

For my low pressure / high volume supply pump to the surge tank I'm using a Carter GP4600HP 8#/100GPH, mounted back by the main tank. These re-prime themselves easily without damage as fuel sloshes. The highest port on the surge tank will also return to the main tank.

My high pressure pump is an Edelbrock unit that came with the Pro-Flo system.

BBP
Sounds like you have a decent plan Bill. My only comment is there will be fuel circulation front to rear even if you run the engine return into the surge tank. The rear supply pump should pump enough volume to keep up with worst case engine consumption. Which means most of the time it is overflowing the surge tank and returning fuel to the tank. This circulation mixes with the engine return circulation in the surge tank.

Not to mention that this saves you running another return line all the way back to the tank. Unless you were talking about T'ing it at the top of the surge tank? Which also works.

Would you need two pumps if you had an external surge tank fed with a high pressure pump and then regulated the return on the surge tank back to the main tank? A small orifice or even a regulator for the surge tank return coming off of the top of the surge tank would bleed the air but not reduce the system pressure greatly.

There is always this option also from tanks: http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=84/category_id=61/home_id=61/mode=prod/prd84.htm (http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=84/category_id=61/home_id=61/mode=prod/prd84.htm)
Anybody hear anything about these?

Mark

What about just making a coil of 3/8 aluminum fuel line and putting it in the sump in the tank? I would think you could get at least 3 feet or more in there.

MarkP,

When the sloshing gas uncovers your pickup, your injector rail pressure would instantly drops to zero, unless your talking about a bladder pressure type tank.

High pressure pumps are poor at self-priming & self destruct when sucking air.

Dave, I don't see what the improvement would be? when the air bubble gets to the pump, same as above.

BBP

MarkP,

When the sloshing gas uncovers your pickup, your injector rail pressure would instantly drops to zero, BBP

Yup, I understand. Just seems like a waste running 2 pumps.

Hi I have been going round and round about this myself and now that were heading into winter here in the northeast it is time to finish some of the problems on my car (fuel being the biggest one) I was in another post in pro touring discussing spectra fuel tanks and how to resolve starvation issues . The 2 ? I have are
Has anyone completed vroooms Idea of the in tank module and does it work?
If run a surge tank I would have to have an external pump(not wild about the noise) what are they talking about with the fuel heating up as it circulates?

Has anyone completed vroooms Idea of the in tank module and does it work?
If run a surge tank I would have to have an external pump(not wild about the noise) what are they talking about with the fuel heating up as it circulates?
Still in the process of completing..... i have tested to make sure the venturi sucks from the bottom of the tank. That seems to work fine. Next step is to try it with the fuel pump wired up.

The more the fuel has to get pumped, the more the fuel will be heated up.

Thanks keep me posted but you wont really know if it works till you drive the car. How come you did not go with the MU2021 module as suggested in previous posts? With all the swaps going on you think someone would allready have a definitive answer or product. I guess there are just so many applications.

Thanks keep me posted but you wont really know if it works till you drive the car. How come you did not go with the MU2021 module as suggested in previous posts? With all the swaps going on you think someone would allready have a definitive answer or product. I guess there are just so many applications.

I'm pretty certin it will work better than the Spectra tank for $500. I have maybe $20 in brass fittings, $30 adaptor for my fuel pump, misc fitting @ $30.

That pump isn't large enough to feed a 540, at least I don't think it will be. :)

Some of the fuel heating up problem comes from the pumps & gasoline friction in the lines, but most of the heat comes from the fuel rails, headers, time spent in engine compartment.

EDIT: I just thought of how to determine the amount of heat that the pumps add. Lets say the HP pump uses 9 amps & the LP pump running with almost no back-pressure uses 1 amp. That's 10 amps total.
10 x 13.5V = 135 Watts

EDIT:135 Watts might raise a 20 gallon tank about 5-10* F (this is a guess)
The temperature would level off at some point where air convection + IR radiation reach a new equilibrium. Painting a shinny metal tank black (some paint is better than others) would greatly increase the IR radiation (emissivity)

BBP

Jason and I are doing the custom module setup instead of the MU-2021 for a couple fundamental reasons:

1. Jason already had an Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump. This sucker is a monster of a high pressure fuel pump. It will support 1000 HP and Jason is looking at something closer to 600-700 range. So it has excess output above and beyond what is required by the engine. Seemed like a shame to get rid of this pump so we worked the solution around it.

2. The one area of concern with the MU-2021 is the pump output. It is original to '99 Ford pickups with larger gas motors. So it should have a fair amount of output and is likely good for 400, maybe 450 HP, guessing. But this is short of the 600-700 Jason is dreaming of ;) Thus we needed a higher output setup.

3. And finally somebody needed to do it to show what was possible :D Jason happened to be at the stage of his project where he needed to work this out. We happen to be geographically close, he works upstairs and I work downstairs.

Note that when all is said and done we will have a surge tank AND only one electric fuel pump. That second fuel pump is a big hangup for many people on the whole surge tank idea.

Regarding the Tanks Inc. module a few posts back... this is no better than the "sump" in the Spectra EFI tanks and I would expect similiar results. There seem to be a fair number of folks who have found the Spectra tanks lacking. To explain howso/whyso: the tray on the Tanks module will keep fuel around the pickup from sloshing away. But consider how the tray is filled, fuel either runs over the top or it trickles in through that 1/4" hole on the end. It also can trickle out of the hole on the end. In no case will the fuel level in that tray ever be higher than that in the tank. So how much buffer time do you have before fuel consumption empties the tray enough to suck air? Experience with a similiar tray design in the Spectra tanks suggests not enough.

Note that the OEMs, GM especially, often used a tray setup but instead of a single hole they used concentric channels around the outside of the tray. Fuel had to enter one side/end and flow completely around the other side/end and back up again to get into the inner reservoir. Because of this wrap around flow channel fuel could not just drain out to the side either. This is superior to the simple hole used in these aftermarket reservoir trays.

Contrast that to a module or surge tank setup where the fuel level in the reservoir is higher than that in the tank. And also where the reservoir capacity is larger. You have a much longer buffer time for consumption before you run the reservoir dry.

You're saying 3 feet of additional line on the intake side of the fuel pump down in the tank would be uncovered on cornering? You have whatever the volume of that 3 feet og 3/8 fuel line is as a buffer. I sure wish I hadn't bought that spectra tank now.

My main goal is to keep my HP EFI pump happy, it needs a continuous gravity fed supply of gas without air.

The best design that I have seen so far, is a combination surge/swirl tank. I'm in process of building my own.

1-2 quart, vertical cylinder.

1. Return port to main tank is at top center. The vortex of swirling gas will concentrate the air bubbles to the top center. (air WILL enter when the main tanks pickup sucks air)

2. About 2" down is the EFI pressure regulator return port which is welded on an angle to the side. This helps create the swirl & it's close proximity to the above return port will cause most of the engine heated gas to be returned to the main tank for cooling.

3. Down close to the bottom is the LP supply pump port feed from the main tank. It is also welded at the same angle to the same side as above. This adds to the swirling.

4. At the bottom (can be on side) is the supply port to the gravity fed EFI HP pump.

Both pumps have the appropriate filters at their output. I also have a glass filter between main tank & LP pump so I can visually check it.

BBP

You're saying 3 feet of additional line on the intake side of the fuel pump down in the tank would be uncovered on cornering? You have whatever the volume of that 3 feet og 3/8 fuel line is as a buffer. I sure wish I hadn't bought that spectra tank now.

What happens when you corner and suck the 3ft of line dry and grab a tiny gulp of air?

Not sure I understand...

Anyway, here is what Steve and I have been working on...

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293510

You got me? I guess I will just have to figure out how to put a patch on my spectra tank. I just figured that the volume of the line would allow it to "catch up". Now I need to find a fuel pump buyer's guide to find a module that will work for me. I like your design but I am going to try and avoid hacking my $433 tank up.

With a Spectra tank you are somewhat limited in your options without hacking the tank up. One option is an external surge tank fed by the Spectra pump. The Spectra pump will happily operate at a lower pressure while feeding a surge tank. And if you can find a place to mount the plastic water filter cannister you can keep all the pumps internal.

So I think I have read every thread on here and hear is what I found:
even though ricks tanks are expensive they are still questionable as to whether or not they work.
Surge tank should work good but 2 problems: 1 noise 1, 2nd If the primary pump occasionly starves for fuel as it will this could burn out the primary pump in time. correct?
The mu2021 works but I am allready at around 430 hp and will be adding a cam and more hp in the next couple of years so that solution could come up short now or later. correct ?
And by reading the thread above if I make my own custom sump it possibly will not work any better than the spectra tank that I allready have ( which is a piece of junk) correct?
So it seems like the same old fix MONEY find someone to build a tank that will fit and work like fuel safe. correct?
Thanks for listening to me complain.

Is there any other donor EFI tanks that will work....seems alot easier and cheaper if possible.

So I think I have read every thread on here and hear is what I found:
even though ricks tanks are expensive they are still questionable as to whether or not they work.
Surge tank should work good but 2 problems: 1 noise 1, 2nd If the primary pump occasionly starves for fuel as it will this could burn out the primary pump in time. correct?
The mu2021 works but I am allready at around 430 hp and will be adding a cam and more hp in the next couple of years so that solution could come up short now or later. correct ?
And by reading the thread above if I make my own custom sump it possibly will not work any better than the spectra tank that I allready have ( which is a piece of junk) correct?
So it seems like the same old fix MONEY find someone to build a tank that will fit and work like fuel safe. correct?
Thanks for listening to me complain.
If you can find a place to mount it, the water filter cannister surge tank can have a fuel pump embedded. This will put both pumps internal and take care of your noise issue. It will also allow you to upgrade the "front" pump for more output.

I would also not worry about burning out the Spectra pump. While sucking air is not optimal it should not be that harmful either. The pump will quickly reprime and get cooled. Plus factor in that with a surge tank it will be operating at low pressure and thus a lot lower load. That should extend pump life more than the occaisional run dry.

Heading out to the garage to put it up on lift to find a spot for the surge. How will the spectra pump operate at a lower pressure than it operates at currently ?

EFI fuel pumps operate at higher pressure because there is resistance introduced to the fuel line in the form of the regulator. The regulator plugs the line until it reaches the desired pressure and then opens just enough to prevent pressure from dropping below the desired pressure.

There will be no regulator between the Spectra pump and the surge tank, nor between surge tank and tank return. Thus no obstruction to flow from the Spectra pump. And no or very minimal pressure.

BTW YMMV but the GE SmartWater filter I have is about 12" tall.

ok this has been a good read here is my question i have a sumped take on my vette
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff28/brngrhd/vette/vette020.jpg

can i return the fuel from my A1000 to the other port on the sump to aid in keeping fuel at the pickup? or will i end up with air in there? that would be a whoe lot eaiser then doing a surge tank.

The return should always go back into the sump or surge or wherever fuel is pulled from.

That in and of itself will not really do anything to keep the pickup submerged and may make it worse depending on the direction and rate of flow from the return. I am thinking that it could squirt fuel right out of the sump here.

The return should always go back into the sump or surge or wherever fuel is pulled from.

That in and of itself will not really do anything to keep the pickup submerged and may make it worse depending on the direction and rate of flow from the return. I am thinking that it could squirt fuel right out of the sump here.


so you told me yes and no in the same post...... :confused::confused:

he he...

Sorry about that. Looking closer much depends on how you ask your question, or in this case really questions. One question was whether to return into the sump and the answer is yes.

The other question was if this would help keep fuel in the sump and that one was much less definitive. It helps in that you only have to replace consumption in the sump. Knowing that the A1000 is a heck-uva-pump it might hurt if the return shoots out of the sump.

Ok i found a spot to mount but still have a few ?
1. I plan on leaving the stock pump in spectra tank not sure what it is but specs say 85-115 psi 50-60 gph . this would be my feed pump to the surge tank then I would run the same pump(becouse I have one ) in the surge tank. will these pumps work?
2. does the size of the surge tank matter is taller and thinner better? I would assume the shorter and wider the tank gets the more potencial for the pickup to suck air due to fuel movement?
3. I am going to use an internal pump in the surge does the tank need to be the same height as the pump or can I extend the pickup on the pump to the bottom of the tank?
4. where do I want my supply and return locations?
5. Does the wire from my relay (currently wired to in tank pump) get wired to the surge tank pump and if so how do I wire my main tank pump?
Thanks

I have no parts and tank so I can go in any direction. It is for a 70 chevelle with big block 509 set up for hot street. Guessing 550 to 600 HP range. Has anyone used a stock tank and stock mechanical pump as the source for the surge tank? I wonder if the stock mechanical diaphragm pumps will have the capacity to feed the efi pump? I think I saw someone comment that this or something like it might be possible, I am curious if anyone has actually done this and with what parts.

Anyone have more details to share about the high pressure efi pumps part numbers and such?

I've seen deals where a guy has an aluminum box/tank with Holley float bowls mounted on the ends. It was fed by a mechanical pump in turn it fed a Hilborn belt drive pump for an old-fashioned mechanical injection. Tank looked like it held about a gallon which would be enough to get most cars through the quarter and it doesn't stop filling during the run.

Downside is a front mounted gasoline tank could be hazardous in a hard wreck but it was made of a heavy gauge aluminum plate.

I probably was able to answer my own earlier question. I am looking for some others to review the following ideas and comment.

If my math is correct, I calculated around 77 gal per hour needed for 750HP at 80% duty cycle. Around 1.3 gal per minute. That should be above sustained usage for a 509 to 540 street big block.

I checked Jegs and they have many versions of mechanical pumps that provide over 100 gallons per hour. Has anyone used these for the transfer pump to the surge tank? Does a 120 gal per hour pump seem plenty big, but not too big?

I am thinking that a standard rear tank, standard pickup, and mechanical diaphragm pump drawing fuel wouldn't be without some sort of fuel flow for more than a few seconds, even during the worse turning and braking etc. I assume they prime themselves very quickly after drawing air?

I also assume the mechanical pumps don't need a back pressure at the discharge of the pump to work well?

Would the mechanical pump draw much power? Since there should be minimal back pressure from the gas flow due to line and fitting friction I am thinking the HP lost would be small?

let me say out loud that the surge tank I wrote about was vented to atmosphere, not pressurized. That's a whole different deal. Are you guys talking about something similar to an Accusump? I *think* those those have like a diaphragm with pressurized air above and oil below.

What I wrote about amounts to a small front mounted fuel tank, constantly replenished. The setup I saw had the returns dumping back to the surge tank, I would run them back to the stock fuel tank to keep the fuel in the surge tank from getting hot.

>> "I am thinking that a standard rear tank, standard pickup, and mechanical diaphragm pump drawing fuel wouldn't be without some sort of fuel flow for more than a few seconds, even during the worse turning and braking etc. I assume they prime themselves very quickly after drawing air?"

Yes, they do.

120 g/hr sound fine to me.

Mechanical pumps don't need backpressure, are not helped by it.

I'd guess that a mechanical fuel pump uses well under 1 HP.

Tom, that is what I was thinking. The surge tank is vented to atmosphere thru the rear gas tank. I would run the return line out the top so that any vapor would naturally flow back to the rear gas tank.

I note the other concern about the surge unit leaking gas upon a crash. I suppose the rear gas tank is not much better or different? It all depends on what gets crunched.

I can picture a canister of fairly heavy steel near the battery in my 70 chevelle. Maybe it would be a bit cooler there. I could plumb the efi pump supply out the bottom and return to the tank out the top. same for returns only with internal spiral flow.

Will there be much vapor being returned to the rear gas tank. I believe original California Chevelles had some sort of canister system to do the vapor return. Carbon canister and such. Mine never had that system. But is that really needed? I seem to remember a puny hole in the gas fill cap for venting. Is this cap and surge system going to belch out gas vapors and be obnoxious or dangerous? So my next question is about the need for some sort of venting system? I saw some relief device shown at one of the stainless steel gas tank suppliers?

I built my surge/swirl tank today. 1.1 qts. 2.5" x 13" pipe.

I would like to mount it back by the main gas tank, but don't see how yet. So maybe I will have to mount it up front where the battery use to be.

sedd (Ken) I don't think that you will have any more pressure to vent from your main gas tank than you had before.

My 72 came with a sealed gas cap & EEC system. Fuel tank has 3 vent hoses that go up about 20" to a liquid/vapor separator device.

I'm thinking of running the output from that, (which used to go up front to a carbon canister) into the bottom of my air cleaner.

Gas vapor can be burnt as required & filtered air can be sucked back into main gas tank as fuel is used.

Good or Bad Idea???

BBP

The surge tank setups for EFI do not have any kind of internal bladder or diaphragm. Nor are they vented to atmosphere. They really are the middle connection point for two fuel flow loops:

A) low pressure high flow loop from tank to surge and back to tank.
B) high/low pressure loop from surge to rails to regulator and back to surge.

Loop A could be run off of just about any pump of suitable output including mechanical. The ports for loop A are generally at the top of the surge tank and the return port in particular needs to be at the highest point.

The feed for loop B needs to be at the lowest point of the surge tank whether it is a port connecting to an external pump, an internal pump, or a top port with internal feed tube to the bottom. The return for loop B should come into the top of the surge tank.

Remember the function of the surge tank is to insure a constant fuel supply to the engine with NO interrupts. The fuel flows compared to the tank volume and viscosity of fuel eliminate the need of swirl designs for seperation of air and liquid.

Cars travel at their highest speeds in a forward direction and therefore suffer the greatest and most frequent damage to the front end. The further forward you go the more likely for a surge tank to become part of the "crush zone". Next to passengers, the fuel tank is probably the most protected part of the car for crashworthy design.

I would be leary of general venting of the fuel system into the engine air intake. It would not be entirely bad... but in general you want to avoid concentrating fuel vapors anywhere. Isn't it regular safety practice in boats to ventilate the engine compartment before first startup of the day? I would point out that even in the charcoal cannister systems the fuel vapors are metered back out into the engine.

Thanks what about the wiring does the in tank pump (main tank) stay wired to the relay? and how soes the surge pump get wired?

You just want both pumps to come on at the same time.

I would wire both pumps to the same supply after verifying that the supply was up to the job. If the supply is minimal I would add a second relay and supply wire. The secondary relay would be enabled by the first relay. That way you do not add more load to the EFI computer switching circuit for fuel pump relay drive.

So now the big question, How much will 65lb injectors spray in 10-11 seconds? and how much volume in the surge tank will be used/replaced. At WOT, there is nothing coming from the return lines, so is a quart enough capacity?

Is there a way to measure this without "guessing"? :)

I believe gasoline weighs somewhere around... 6 or 7 lbs per gallon (you can look it up on the internet). After that it becomes simple math if you know the time for that 65lb rating on the injectors.

No guessing required, just junior high math.

Just a thought. Would the sudden depressurization of the heated gas that comes back from the efi tubing and line cause the gas to vaporize and cause bubbles in the liquid in the return line to the swirl tank? Maybe that is why some sort of swirl is needed or desired? If the liquid gas/vapor stream is directed towards the bottom, it may force bubbles into the suction to the efi pump? If that is true I think the swirl tank should be fairly large in diameter and have a return that in tangential, so the liquid and vapor return has plenty of time to slow down and vapor bubbles will rise to the top?

I think that Edelbrock had the equation HP x 0.55 = gallons of fuel per hour. They used this as a part of the math for determining injector size. I also googled that gasoline was from 6.2 to 6.3 pounds per gallon.

I did the math for 500HP and came up with 0.74 gallons per minute.

Just a thought. Would the sudden depressurization of the heated gas that comes back from the efi tubing and line cause the gas to vaporize and cause bubbles in the liquid in the return line to the swirl tank? Maybe that is why some sort of swirl is needed or desired? If the liquid gas/vapor stream is directed towards the bottom, it may force bubbles into the suction to the efi pump? If that is true I think the swirl tank should be fairly large in diameter and have a return that in tangential, so the liquid and vapor return has plenty of time to slow down and vapor bubbles will rise to the top?
The gas does not get heated that much :noway:

The OEMs use a much smaller surge cup without any type of swirl or special attention to return direction. And the depressurization really happens at the regulator.

For the surge operation you really need a smaller diameter and larger height tank. You are trying to keep fuel from moving sideways and that is not compatible with wide tanks.

vrooom3440 (Steve), Thanks for all of your helpful advice.

It's guys like you that make Chevelles.com such a great site.

BBP

What size and design does the OEM use? Although I do like to understand the design, I don't necessarily want to engineer this, rather just use what works, tried and true stuff.

Yep, depressurization happens at the regulator. The vapor continues past that along with liquid to whatever it goes to. Ideally it would return to the rear gas tank for cooling. If returned with poor design into the surge tank, and there is quite a flow velocity, maybe the bubbles go back into the suction of the efi pump? Maybe that is no big deal if the amount of bubbles are minimal? Maybe the cooler supply gas mixing with the hotter return gas cools the vapor very quickly and it separates or returns to liquid quickly? Someone posted earlier about putting supply gas into the surge tank below the return and I think that is a very good idea. Also putting a swirl into the flow will allow much more time for vapor to rise or return to liquid state. That is also why I think you want a diameter that promotes all this. I think that is why there is discussion about how best to separate the bubbles.

There shouldn't be much reason for gas to move side to side if the container is nearly full? Ideally you want diameter and height, but nobody want a huge tank of gas setting up in front. I may play with putting some gas in a clear bottle and shaking it up to see how fast the bubbles rise. The velocity of the liquid gas into the efi pump can't be greater than the velocity of the rising bubbles, otherwise the bubbles can get sucked into the pump. I am thinking that is why you don't want to direct a stream of liquid and possible vapor that is directed at the efi pump suction.

Why does the return off the regulater need to go back to the surge ? couldnt you just send it back to the main tank? If the main tank is pumping to the surge shouldnt that satisfy the surge pump? The issue is running out of fuel at WOT and the return is probaly not sending back much fuel at that point any way. In all the designs I have looked at the return always goes to the surge first I guess I am just trying to understand why.Thoughts

If you return to the surge tank then you only need to provide fuel to the surge tank equal to consumption. Returning to the tank you would need to provide consumption PLUS return volume to the surge tank. Since the pumps are sized to maximum consumption plus a bit of margin returning to the tank would mostly work...

The situation where having the return go back to the surge tank is way superior is when you have a fuel supply interruption to the surge tank. The surge tank will empty faster and refill much slower if the return goes back to the tank.

Just talked with hector at ricks hot rods . He says they have greatly improved there tank design in the last few months I also spoke with someone who purchased a tank from ricks he was having all the same spectra tank problems I was having he bought the ricks tank and problem solved. And yes he does beat the sh!!!! out of his car and still no fuel issue. Does anyone else have any feedback on these ricks tanks? Hector quoted me $ 1195 with walbro pump 67 gph.

Did he tell you what they had done to improve? Give you specifics? For that kind of $$$ I want some real tech to justify the price personally.

It is very possible to make improvements and even build an internal surge tank. And if done might even be worth spending the $$$.

The description from Hector is that they have made the front of the tank (towards the rearend is 81/2 " instead of the 6 1/2" a stock tank, then they run a divider from the bottom of the tank to the top right to left all the way across the tank at the point where the tank starts to slope up ,then they run 2 more dividers top to bottom on either side of the pump that is mounted in tank closest to the rearend this chambers the tank and almost creates a surge tank around the fuel pump. The way the fuel flows is that all the internal pieces are just spot welded allowing fuel to move between them. The reason for the tank being deeper in the front is to allow for larger capacity fuel pumps either at time of original install or if larger pump is needed later for more hp applications. What do you think?

The shape/profile is new but the fundamental baffling is SOS, Same Old Stuff ;)

The problem I have with those types of solutions is the fuel level around the fuel pump will NEVER be any higher than that in the fuel tank in general. Profile is a bit of an improvement but not as much as a true surge tank would be.

good point .just trying to do all my research before I pull the trigger on the route that I am going to go

I have read through this entire thread but now I forget if this was suggested/mentioned. What about using the rock auto tank only removing the high pressure in tank pump and put in a lower pressure in tank pump like a TBI one or if they make a low pressure in tank transfer pump for a diesel. Then I could run a external high pressure pump mounted on the frame rail. I read earlier about how lower pressure pumps are not disturbed as much by aeration. Thoughts?

I'm not satisfied with mounting spots for an electric fuel pump back by my main fuel tank.

Now I'm trying to find a good Mechanical fuel pump to feed my DIY 1.1 qt. surge/swirl tank, which will go up front where my battery use to be.

It's a 355 small block in a Monte Carlo and is very tight between block & crossmember.

Motor is about 500HP at sea level, so I want a better pump than stock replacement and without the small return port. The small return port on my stock main fuel tanks sending unit is being used by return from the top center of my surge/swirl tank.

The mechanical pump will feed my surge/swirl tank which will feed my Edelbrock high pressure EFI pump.

I just tried an Edelbrock Performer SUM-EDL21 NO/GO

Summit says it will fit, but it's not even close to fitting between block & crossmember.

Now looking at a Holley 12-327-11 (110 gph & 6.5 to 8# psi)

Is anyone running one of these?

BBP

Bowtie70SS (Dave),

A low pressure/hi volume pump in tank is better than having a high pressure pump that can suck air.

You would still need a surge tank in between your 2 pumps to handle the occasional air & provide continuous fuel supply to HP pump.

BBP

Actually you can run a high pressure pump just fine at lower pressure. The motor may run a bit faster in the pump but it will have less loading on it and pull less current from the electrical system. Output volume will increase a bit as well. Pump life should be as good or better with the lighter loading and current drop.

Most of these applications stick the HP in tank pump right down on the bottom of the tank so there is negligable lift required to re-prime the pump.

If I had one I would not hesitate to run the original Spectra in tank pump as a feeder to a surge tank. Provided I was able to find a place to mount everything and going that direction ;)

vrooom3440 (Steve), I agree that either will work, the difference comes in when they have to suck air.

I have designed hot water floor heating systems (as a hobby). I use the pump curve graphs (flow vs. head (back pressure)) to select which pump to use in various situations.

Say for a 1/4 HP, the impellers are designed differently between a low head vs. high head. I assume that the same holds true for electric fuel pumps.

From what I have read, a low pressure fuel pump is much better at self-priming than a high pressure.

If a high pressure pump sucks air it is very poor at self-priming and causes them to burn out quickly.

BBP

I know I keep throwing out out ideas here but what about a large fuel filter (I have seen some that look like a pint+) from a diesel or other app. Instead of building a surge tank Could I put one between the low and high pressure pumps as a cushion?

Some of the 4x4 conversion folks have used fuel filters as surge tanks. These setups often use a T connecting the engine return/fuel tank return/surge tank overflow.

Just have to make sure the high pressure pump sucks from the bottom of the fuel filter.

Soooo, where would the LP pump fuel supply from main tank hook up???

I'm guessing the top also, that's 3 at the top.

BBP

I installed my DIY surge/swirl tank yesterday. I mounted it sitting on frame up front where the battery use to be.

I'm now waiting for Summit to deliver a Carter GM6624 mechanical pump 5.5-6.5psi 120gph (hope it will fit between block & crossmember)

BBP

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/buffalopatrick/th_IMG_0637.jpg (http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/buffalopatrick/?action=view&current=IMG_0637.jpg)

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/buffalopatrick/th_IMG_0636.jpg (http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/buffalopatrick/?action=view&current=IMG_0636.jpg)

I installed my DIY surge/swirl tank yesterday. I mounted it sitting on frame up front where the battery use to be.

I'm now waiting for Summit to deliver a Carter GM6624 mechanical pump 5.5-6.5psi 120gph (hope it will fit between block & crossmember)

BBP


Bill,

your trusting rubber hose at 45 psi? or am I missing something?

Ron

Hey Ron, there is almost no pressure in surge tank. Top center port is open 1/4" return to main tank.

Fuel line between HP pump & fuel rails will be a HP capable line.

BTW, those 2 lines that are hooked up are HP capable & came from Edelbrock with the kit. The upper one is the feed in from the mechanical fuel pump & may have 1psi. The very bottom one feeds the HP pump & is actually at a small negative pressure (under suction).

BBP

Thanks Bill, got it.

Ron

It looks functional :thumbsup:

I am skeptical if the swirl is needed on these things but then it cannot hurt either... unless you get things twirling around fast enough to create a vortex down into the center HP pump intake port. Might have to make sure you have that swirl going the right opposite direction for the northern hemisphere ;)

It looks functional :thumbsup:

Might have to make sure you have that swirl going the right opposite direction for the northern hemisphere ;)
l:)

Ron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

Yep, I designed this for the Northern Hemisphere.

My top view swirl will be clockwise, so as to fight the CCW Coriolis Effect in the N. Hemisphere.
(if you believe this, I have a bridge to sell ya)

BTW, the output port that feeds the HP pump is on the SIDE at the bottom.

BBP

Hi recieved my new ricks hot rod tank last night and installed. very nice piece stainless steel withe walbro 225 pump in tank. all fuel problems resolved wish I had just spent the $1200.00 the first time instead of playing around with the spectra tank. just my 2 cents

I am sure the tank is very nice, I wish I had $1200 to spend on one. Plan B for me is to sump my tank and put a in tank pump in for the top and let it hang down through into the sump.

More two cents, how about a dimes worth............... This is long but I hope may be helpful to others. Also don't assume I got this right, we need more info to confirm my findings.

After quite a bit of research I have decided to use Ricks and have them install a Bosch -044 pump inside the tank. Considering everything, I thought that if the tank were baffled well this would provide the most reliable system. No surge pots and dual pumps etc. The cost is pretty high but if you want custom and stainless.............

Ricks noted the need to modify the tank a bit for my 1970 Chevelle to allow the exhaust pipe to clear better. Anyone building one themselves might consider that need. I too thought of just buying a carbon steel tank and welding in a sump, but then I wondered about the steel being used for the tank and if it would accept welding without cracks and such. Mostly I wanted stainless so there would never be any issues with rust, inside or out.

Finding data on flow at 43 psi was very difficult. It appears that the -044 is a bit larger in flow at 43 psi than the Walbro 255. I'm still not convinced about the flow rates cause there is too little Mfg data and very conflicting internet posts about the flows. Ricks has worked with the Bosch -040 and -044 in the past. I calculated that the Bosch -044 pump should handle 675HP with 20% room to spare for surges and for wear. There are a few assumptions about the density of gas and its energy value so I found quite a range for possible HP capability. I think that is why there are so many HP figures given for the same pump.

The figure the only way to compare pumps is with the same fluid at the same temp and pressure. I found you have to watch for specifications on advertizing that are not clear about the flow at a given pressure. Many advertisments quote the max flow which is at zero pressure. Then they quote a maximum pressure but not the flow at that pressure. It makes you think the max flow is at max pressure, and that is not the case. Bosch gives very low numbers for their specs? I found a few pump curves for the Bosch but based on N-Heptane. Anybody got a tankfull of pure N-Heptane lately???????

There is another option I was tempted to use cause it was a bit larger in flow and good for 800HP. SX-Performance.com Model 18203. They're made in the USA! They make a pump for Edelbrock with the same flow ratings. Problem is that they don't provide any easy way to mount an inlet filter on the pump.

Of course there are quite a few other pumps that I believe can be mounted inside the tank that will pump even more. Aeromotive 1000 if I remember the model correctly. That might require a bit more radical design and cost. Then of course mounting on the outside opens up quite a few more options and design issues.....

I had first thought about the noise that the pump will make, then I got a reality check, I will have loud exhaust. I think the Bosch pump may be a bit quieter due to its use of a turbine vs gears or similar that others such as SX and Holley uses for some of their similar flow rate pumps. The Bosch should provide a smoother pressure pulse also due to the turbine.

There is another Bosch pump -023 that is very interesting, but I couldn't find any flow curves. The -023 is supposedly a bit bigger in flow than the -040 and with similar height dimensions and inlet filter. Some internet data says the -040 is the same as the Walbro 255, so the -023 must handle a few more HP???? I like the -023 desing cause it has a "built on" inlet filter. Very limited Bosch flow data and ratings indicate the -023 doesn't flow as much as the -044.

I give Walbro credit for publishing their pump curves! Others should do the same. It would be real nice to see a pump curve for the -023 in case anyone happens to have one. Even some test flow data at a few given pressures, that are based on gasoline would be very nice! Kinsler Fuel Injection has flow data on the -044 flow, they sell pumps (part no 10211 = -044) and inlet filters.

Sedd, Great post! I bought a Kinsler system with FAST EFI because they actually had people that knew what they were doing, and this was 8 years ago. One thing I find in the automotive world is a lack of real data. Too much marketing and not enough fact.

Thanks for adding some guidance for us to find better data on the pumps. I miss calculated and I had to add another pump inline to boost the Bosch in the tank. It was close but no cigar at full throttle.

Ron

Ron

excellent post. Good to see in-depth stuff like this.

Ad you're right about the numbers and marketing. It's terrible. But it's not just the company that's to blame. People are notorious for buying numbers and size. Even in recent years software people know that CDs and DVDs sell better if they're in bigger boxes.

I'm glad you brought up that point about flow claims vs. head pressure. I'm surprised anybody puts up flow curves.