Very attractive price. But look like a no-frills (with the utmost respect) as to the other units out there. Do the MS systems have as many features as the rest of the competition? How about reliability? Dont want to be stuck on the side of the road cussing, and wanting to put a carb back on. Some systems out there have a "limp" mode to get the car back home at least.

Vince,things have really come a long way in recent years as far as whats available. I think MS was a way to get in to FI when there wasn't much in the way of affordable systems out there. I also think it was focused on those that enjoyed tinkering. If what you want to do is bolt on an EFI sytem and go there's probably better choices.
Mike

Very attractive price. But look like a no-frills (with the utmost respect) as to the other units out there. Do the MS systems have as many features as the rest of the competition? How about reliability? Dont want to be stuck on the side of the road cussing, and wanting to put a carb back on. Some systems out there have a "limp" mode to get the car back home at least.

here is what I suggest we do. since I dont know all the features of all the other systems out there, why dont you list what you would like your efi system to do and I'll tell you if megasquirt is able to do it.

I'll say this now - you'll be absolutely surprised what megasquirt is capable of. I also say its FAR MORE capable than the mainstream systems out there - ie edelbrock and holley systems
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/

as for tinkering - you can buy an assembled megasquirt box, its only about 4 sensors and 8 injector connectors to solder, and once you get a good tune going, its pretty much set it and forget it -some people can get the tune to 96% within 1 hour.

the box is pretty sturdy. having it crap out is not a concern at all - to me anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=974YsInWxhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r321asXzJe8

One of the most attractive features to me about Megasquirt is that the source code for the program is open to anyone to modify. If it does not do something you want, you can change the code yourself and recompile if you are so inclined. And if you are not a computer programming expert, there are a bunch of capable folks on the MS forum that could help you out. Try that with ANY other off the shelf system available in the marketplace.

As for reliability of a MS system, a lot of that depends on the installation. If the wiring is a hack job, then you will have problems. If you use junk yard sensors, you are rolling the dice. If you use a 40 watt soldering gun and acid flux solder to assemble the board, you will definately get stranded. On the other hand, if you are meticulous in the installation, use quality components, and pay strict attention to detail then you should get many years of trouble free service from it.

One of the most attractive features to me about Megasquirt is that the source code for the program is open to anyone to modify. If it does not do something you want, you can change the code yourself and recompile if you are so inclined. And if you are not a computer programming expert, there are a bunch of capable folks on the MS forum that could help you out. Try that with ANY other off the shelf system available in the marketplace.

As for reliability of a MS system, a lot of that depends on the installation. If the wiring is a hack job, then you will have problems. If you use junk yard sensors, you are rolling the dice. If you use a 40 watt soldering gun and acid flux solder to assemble the board, you will definately get stranded. On the other hand, if you are meticulous in the installation, use quality components, and pay strict attention to detail then you should get many years of trouble free service from it.


you are right about the open source nature of ms. I dont have to know how or need for this at the moment but I like that its there.

I have used junkyard sensors with no problems. you can usually pick up a handful for a 5 bucks and they mostly all work. I picked up three or 4 throttle position sensors and they were all within tolerance


I think for the average person it is worth it to spend the extra $150 and buy an assembled unit. less chance of stuff going awry... there is also the stim board that they sell to help bench test everything

Here is the carb to EFi kits from MSQ.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/-c-53_69.html

I would go with kit #1 for $747.00. This has the MS-II unit which also has spark control.

You know, I dont even know what features I need :confused:. Obviously fuel control, spark - why not? Dont see me getting into N20 or anykind of forced induction. Figure if you can find a used TB/intake/injector setup off a boat, you can probably get into EFI for around $2000.00. Then, you can sell your car/intake/distrib and fuel system to bring that cost down,

Again, I just have questions about the LTR of the MSQ systems...I know nothing about them. Wonder if the fully assembled units are done my hand or machine.

That package is nice, but for some who need to count every penny, you can get by without the stim board(about $70-I bought my ms2 used and didn't even need it,though its nice to have)

Don't need the sensor bung if you can tap a spacer or the manifold itself. Most used manifolds come pretapped, and don't need new sensors.

I did enjoy doing business with the diyautotune guys

Ms is probably overkill for your needs. I thought maybe you were looking for driveshaft speed sensors and things of that nature. There are cars that have been running ms for years with no problems

I use megasquirt 1 which has no spark control. Makes things cheaper and simpler. Just used my carb distributor, works fine. I went EFI for better tuning ability especially with boost. I wanted a cheap fuel only ECU and megasquirt 1 met those needs. Car runs so much better now. I highly recommend it.

I thought maybe you were looking for driveshaft speed sensors and things of that nature.

I was surprised that some EFI systems didn't use a speed signal. I am going to use a t-56 Magnum transmission in my '69, and I have a choice between cable and electronic speedo. Does MS use the signal from the speedo, or is that another sensor?

I worked as a product engineer on an automated manual transmission group for a few years, and speed signal vs throttle position was essential for knowing what the driver wanted to do. I guess that it isn't as important when fueling a motor.

The only reason I think an ECU would want to know speed is for a speed govenor. Megasquirt doesn't need to know speed, it's not related to engine functionality.

The MSQ site is very comprehensive and complex...very intimidating. I was thinking of the MS-1, but why not have spark control? I think I would at least want the option for it, even though I run 36* locked and like it that way.

After giving this topic some thought today as I was working on my MS project, my suggestion is to not even consider MS unless you are committed 100% to learning the theory of EFI systems. You also need to understand MS's capabilities, and it's limitations, completely before you head down that path. Spend some time reading various topics over on the MS forum (http://www.msefi.com/) and ask some questions if you need help understanding stuff. It is a huge learning curve, and if you aren't willing to take the time to learn it all, then your project will fail. MS is definately not plug-and-play.

Here are some pics of my MS project.

http://home.att.net/~gotdart/DSC01918a.JPG


http://home.att.net/~gotdart/DSC01919a.JPG

This project has been dragging out for several years. I did have it running at one time with a TPI intake and a hacked up OEM harness connecting it to the MS controller. But I decided TPI was not what I wanted so I started from scratch with this Accel Pro-Ram intake and Edelbrock throttle body. I still have some wiring and plumbing to complete to get it running again, but since I just became unemployed I should have more time to work on it.

Thanks Greg, sometimes you just need to hear this sort of stuff. The MSQ site is incredibly complex, and there's pages upon pages of different stuff that I know nothing about. And no, I dont care to learn every aspect of this stuff, so maybe MSQ is not a praticle solution for my needs.

What vehicle is that? something about those shock towers just doesn't fit in with the 86 C-10.

Fiero?

Yes, it is a Fiero. My other toy.

I am actually planning on using MS instead of the Accel Gen 6 I already have. The older Gen 6 will only drive closed loop fuel control to a single AFR. The MS has a table of target AFRs for use with a wide band O2. I can run lean for cruise for best economy, rich for WFO best power, and somewhere between in more "transient" conditions.

As already stated, and this is key, MS is targeted at folks who want to know how it all works. Fits me to a T. MS is also target at folks who may want to do something extra or extend the system. Again part of the game to me. Shucks I already have the code loaded up, modified, and rebuilt.

Because of the open-ended architecture (fit anything, do anything) of the MS system, there are no truly plug and play MS systems. This can make it seem very complex to the newby indeed.

MS is actually kind of a misnomer because this is a system that has evolved over the years such that there are really about 6 or more different versions out there. If you really want to go into overload go read around the MS-Extra forums ;) This also complicates things for the newby. Add to that the original developer base and now the second generate "after-market" developer base (MS-Extra) and features and functionality diverge into an even wider array of options.

MS is also targeted at folks who may not be supported with a after-market solution. So there are a LOT of strange roll you own solutions out there using MS. It is really big over in Europe.

MS is also the ticket if you want to enhance the system beyond basics. Folks are doing multi-stage nitrous, multi-stage launch control, and other racing features. Folks are also doing alternative fuels and flex fuels. There are also folks using MS as a platform for laboratory expirementing. This why reading around on the MS forums may not be the best approach, going to be a lot of noise in the signal there ;)

So to simplify I would recommend using only the MS-II hardware with MS2-Extra firmware. This provides the most features and expansion capability. There is a lot more ongoing development occurring on that combination than any other.

Probably the biggest limitation to MS currently is it does not really handle COP setups nor sequential injection. Some folks have made add-ons and hacks to do this on smaller engines. But if you need either of these features on a V8 you will need to look elsewhere.

No need of a vehicle speed sensor on EFI. Engine speed provides all you need for fuel and spark management. Might be different if you throw a computer controlled automatic into the mix. Might be able to add some interesting cross-checks and diagnostics with a VSS. But not really necessary.

I am planning on tweaking the software myself. All of the hardware documentation and design is out there. You just have to be able to read and interpret to figure out how to program it. Since I have been doing this stuff for over 25 years it is not very hard to do. I want multi-stage electric cooling fan control, automatic A/C kick-off, and closed loop idle speed control. That is going to require some code development :beers:

Home brew code in cars, we all knew it was coming...:D

I'll have to drive up and visit you Steve. I would like to see your development system.

Some of the old timers will say the forum is going to hell in a hand basket though...:thumbsup:

Ron

Just imagine if we started playing around with the CAN interface on the MS-II...

Not sure I would call anything on MS-II a "development system"... from all indications it is more of a build/download/pray system. Not many ways to get a glimpse of what is going on inside for debugging. I have to put some more time and thought into that aspect of the game. Might be another module on CAN...

Honestly from my perspective the biggest problem with the MS-II is the limitations of hardware inputs and outputs. The processor they use is very much optimized to what they are doing but is also a low-end part with reduced pin count and nil expansion capability. All of their futures stuff for COP and sequential injection relies on chaining multiple CPU modules together using CAN. It can work but really complicates the picture and timing synchronization between processors.

All of their futures stuff for COP and sequential injection relies on chaining multiple CPU modules together using CAN. It can work but really complicates the picture and timing synchronization between processors.


I wouldn't say 'all' of the stuff coming chains CPUs together. The sequencer does yes, uses basically two MS2 CPUs on one board for 8cyl COP and sequential fuel. It's in beta now. Simultaneously though, the MS3 is coming together nicely. This is a simple chip swap for existing MS2 users, and not much more than that (couple jumper wires) plus the chip swap for existing MS1 users to upgrade. That alone will add the faster CPU, onboard SDRAM logging, and USB interface. This is currently in testing and the testing is going really well. Add the MS3X (expander) board to the box (still all fits in one case) and you have tons of I/O, including 8cyl COP/Sequential fuel with loads of inputs and outputs that are being put to good use by the dev team. Don't have a solid ETA on release, but several people have them running on cars now with zero show-stopping issues, no hardware issues at all, and just some more broad scale testing (bigger user base, already selected) to do before it's released.

I'll agree with what others have said about Megasquirt being for those who like to tinker and/or want to learn how the whole thing works. If you're looking for something more plug-n-play, it's not the right setup. I've used MS-II and it works and is relatively easy to tune. My biggest troubles going EFI have involved the fuel system and my POS Innovate LC-1.

As for those who say a speed sensor is not needed -- and since Megasquirt is customizable, I'm surprised no one mentioned doing some sort of speed-based boost control.

-Dave

...As for those who say a speed sensor is not needed -- and since Megasquirt is customizable, I'm surprised no one mentioned doing some sort of speed-based boost control.

-Dave
I presume you are thinking about reduced output in lower gears to help control wheel spin and higher output in higher gears?

Just a switch could do that ;)