Another Atlanta car with an EX code motor. T0521EX. 06B car. 406 casting with A 16 7 date. Then the 1967 dated L89 heads.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Chevrolet-Chevelle-SS-396-L-89-375-HP_W0QQitemZ120476992005QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars _Trucks?hash=item1c0cfd0205&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Gotta love the Impala radio that is in it.

:noway:

Here's a good question....the Camaro had a 4K code on the firewall tag for the 375 horse engine.... did the Chevelle use the same code???

:noway:

See that David.. No Charge ;)

:noway:

See that David.. No Charge ;)

Thanks, Mike... :yes:

:noway:

See that David.. No Charge ;)


I thank you also mike. How about starting over from scratch?

curt

Life is short.. .. Curt.. and I'm always open to discuss fresh starts. I'll have my people call your people....

Oh wait.. I got No People.. I'll ring ya later in the week.

I would expect an EX code engine (smog pump) to be in a Fremont built car. Why is it in an Atlanta car with aluminum heads? And 4 months from casting date to assembly date.

Bruce

I have spoken with Rick via phone and email several times about his car and he just doesn't get it... :noway: matter of fact he says he can't find anything that documents a 67 SS ever got coded EG.. just 66's and he thinks EX was the only 67 suffix code for L-78 Chevelle.. so he can't understand why his Atlanta built car would not have an EX coded engine.. I think he gets that the heads are not Factory... I think... of course no docs. on car.

I personally documented a Fremont 67 SS L-78 EX coded a few years back.

Now if someone else can show me the light as to how an Atlanta Built Car got an EX coded block originally installed in it.. have at it. I am open.

I could buy the opposite.. a Fremont Built car with an EG coded block, but notan ATL built car with EX coded block.

I mean, if a Fremont car was being built for a customer outside of Calif. maybe that car would not require smog and somehow got an EG block.. just reaching here.. but I just can't figure how the current situation can happen.

Nice Radiator in that one too~

I'm surprised that the owner of a car like this wouldn't be aware that Tonowanda records show that only about 10% of the 375HP Chevelle engines produced in 1967 had the EX code and the other 90% were EG coded. The exact quantities of these engines was documented about 25 years ago by Fran Preve, an employee and Tonowanda historian.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253540&highlight=Fran+Preve

I hear ya Bruce: If I am incorrect with what I am saying, I am open to listening to others with more knowledge and experience.

The 1967 Chevelle model year according to GM, Tonawanda records, and the personal and exhaustive research of many Chevelle Enthusiasts like myself shows that 630 RPO L-78 engines were produced. 596 were coded with the more common EG code, designating it as a 375hp engine. 34 of these L-78’s were coded EX and were destined for California, a state that mandated that all vehicles, with few exceptions if any, have SMOG EQUIPMENT or Air Injection Reactor (RPO K-19) installed to help control the pollution of the air. These engines were built/assembled at the Tonawanda Engine Assembly Plant in Tonawanda, NY. The engines got stamped with the date of the engine assembly and a 2 letter suffix code designating the horsepower rating, Trans. type and whether it was an AIR car (SMOG) or not, while at the Tonawanda plant. In the case of the engine in question here, EX stands for an L-78 Smog equipped engine. The other 18 engines produced were listed as SERVICE REPLACEMENT Engines, it is unknown how many of those engines ever got installed or how they were Stamped. The Engine received it’s sequential production number or partial VIN Stamp when it arrived at whatever assembly plant the car was being built at. This VIN stamp was just forward of the Tonawanda assembly plant date stamping.

It looks like a nice enough car but the money is in the originality of the drivetrain.. otherwise, just another 67 SS IMO

Here's a good question....the Camaro had a 4K code on the firewall tag for the 375 horse engine.... did the Chevelle use the same code???

There is no cowl tag code for the horsepower on a 66 or 67 Chevelle. The 65 Z16's had M in group 4, but that really pertained to the body modifications required to build a Z16 (rear trim, no quarter emblems, etc.) and not to the engine (although all Z16 bodies received the L37 396/375 engine).

If I understand it correctly, the reason the 67 Camaros got cowl tag codes for certain engines was also related primarily to body modifications specific to those engines - such as the flipped over heater core and different heater box for a big block, the addition of the bracketry for the rear end radius rod, etc.

Since all 66-67 138vin Chevelles were 396's, and since the HP (325, 360/350, or 375) did not affect the body of the car in any way, there was no cowl tag designation for the engine HP in a 66-67 SS Chevelle.

Well, if 34 of the 375hp motors are stamped EX, here is another supposedly EX stamped car with an Atlanta tag. That makes two fake Atlanta 375hp cars that I've seen in the last couple of weeks and approximately 6.8% of the EX motors accounted forl:). However, I'm pretty sure that the car in Arizona is a good restamp. T0503EX with the partial vin of the car.


http://www.steeldreamz.com/1967_chevelle_ss.htm

i'm with Mike on this one California emissions coded cars were for point of sale and delivery to Ca. only. I could be remotely possible to see one from kansas city being it was the next closest plant to Fremont but it would have to be shipped to Ca. for sale and reg.Point in being I ordered a 70's pontiac for a friend in Illinois with 350 4bl which was Ca. emissions only for sale in Ca only. GM overode the order and thye car came in with 350 2bl Fed emissions.

Just tossing this out but Tailfins & Bowties shows GM reporting 42,147 K19 A.I.R. options sold. I don't think the mandated K19 cars, such as those from California, were shown as optional sales just like the base SS396 325hp engine isn't listed as an optional sales item (although the L35 was available in non-SS El Caminos and that accounts for the 2,565 listed).

Question being if an L78 was ordered from Atlanta along with the K19 option, would it be coded as EX as opposed to EG?

Dale, we moved out to Indy from California a couple of years ago. California emissions has always been an option on all cars for as long as I can remember. I don't believe it was ever standard equipment even when ordered from a California dealer. Just a few years back I ordered a new Ford truck and they had to specify Cal emissions vs. 49 state emissions on the order form. I'm pretty sure its always been an option with a specific option code and not standard equipment. You can go right now onto Kelly blue book and make a car with whatever options are available for that make and model. One of the options is CAl emissions. Cal dealers are obviously required to select that option when they place their orders.

No one here can be 100% certain that Kan or Atl didn't or couldn't produce cars for California that needed smog equipment. Yes it makes a little more sense for delivery that Cal ordered cars would come out of Fremont, but is this just an assumption based on todays common sense or fact? If this would be the case for smog equiped cars, then why not all cars destined for Cal be produced in Fremont? If you can document any non smog cars coming out of Atl to Cal dealers, then you can certainly expect them to be prepared to supply smog equiped vehicles also. Like the others here, I would have to agree that it is possible but not too probable. I'm also assuming that in the case of EX stamped motors, they all were ordered for Cal dealers. So, if the motor is original to the car, then the car is a Cal car also.

It's been on the local Craigslist for a while too, nice looking car for sure and really cool with the l89 heads even if they are not correct for the car. Too bad it's advertised and priced as original though.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/1410370811.html


http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291390&highlight=l89

Just tossing this out but Tailfins & Bowties shows GM reporting 42,147 K19 A.I.R. options sold. I don't think the mandated K19 cars, such as those from California, were shown as optional sales just like the base SS396 325hp engine isn't listed as an optional sales item (although the L35 was available in non-SS El Caminos and that accounts for the 2,565 listed).

Question being if an L78 was ordered from Atlanta along with the K19 option, would it be coded as EX as opposed to EG?

The options ordering information I have dated February 1, 1966 has this note for the K19 option.

"Approved by the state of California and exclusive to California vehicle registrations only."

I think exclusive is the key word. Ok, this is in 66 but I would assume this to be the case in 67 also. Maybe someone with 67 information can chime in. We also know that Fremont built vehicles with K19 were also delivered to surrounding states (particularly in Oregon) and sold outside of California, but the intent was apparently to have these vehicles available where Californians might purchase their cars. In 1966, K19 sales numbers can account for most of Fremont's production. In 1967, as I recall, Fremont produced a larger number of cars than the K19 numbers, so that implies that Fremont also built a significant number of 49 state cars in addition to the K19 cars. I think all the K19s sold would show up as optional sales. I would agree that Fremont could have built EG engined cars for delivery outside of California, but I don't think that any EX coded engines would have been installed outside of Fremont.

The options ordering information I have dated February 1, 1966 has this note for the K19 option.

"Approved by the state of California and exclusive to California vehicle registrations only."

I think exclusive is the key word. Ok, this is in 66 but I would assume this to be the case in 67 also. Maybe someone with 67 information can chime in. We also know that Fremont built vehicles with K19 were also delivered to surrounding states (particularly in Oregon) and sold outside of California, but the intent was apparently to have these vehicles available where Californians might purchase their cars. In 1966, K19 sales numbers can account for most of Fremont's production. In 1967, as I recall, Fremont produced a larger number of cars than the K19 numbers, so that implies that Fremont also built a significant number of 49 state cars in addition to the K19 cars. I think all the K19s sold would show up as optional sales. I would agree that Fremont could have built EG engined cars for delivery outside of California, but I don't think that any EX coded engines would have been installed outside of Fremont.
My 67 data shows about the same thing but the figures don't add up. Let me say first the option numbers reported in Tailfins & Bowties do NOT inlcude options that were included within other options such as:
L35 engines shown sold from 1966 thru 1968 that were base engines in the SS396 just like the LS5 engine is not shown with any option sales in 1970 because it was the base engine in the Z15 SS454 option. Based on that, I don't believe the figures for standard or required items are included in

"GM Air Injection Reactor: Approved by the state of California and exclusive to California registration. Available only when closed engine positive ventilation is ordered." To me this means the K24 option is required along side the K19 option.

The 67 figures for K19 (A.I.R.) is 42,147, the figures for K24 (closed pos vent) is only 40,515 and the production reported for Fremont is 61,500. The "...exclusive to California registration..." and sales numbers would indicate 19,353 Chevelles built at Fremont were apparently for dealers outside of California; that's reasonable. If K19 (A.I.R.) was only available when K24 (closed pos vent) was ordered, why would the figures for K24 be 1,632 less than K19? Odd...

Further, K24 says...
"Ventilation, Closed Engine Positive: Included when 325-hp 327-cu-in or 350-hp engine is ordered." Note nothing is said about K19 or California.

So, would the K24 sales figure of 40,515 include those two engine orders (4,048 L79 plus 17,176 L34 where it's included) as well? Now we've gone from 1,632 fewer K24 than K19 (that required it) to 22,856 K24 sold without K19. The AIM shows K24 on 6-cyl engines as well as the 283, the L30 327 as well as the L35 396 (noteably lacking the L35 & L79 that automatically came with K24).

Devil's advocate here...
The reported options sales figures are why I tend to think the K19 "...required for California registration..." (not California production) units are not included in the 42,147 reported sold as options. Additionally, since K19 required K24 and K24 figure is lower than the K19 by 1,632 those wouldn't be included, either in the California registration requirement nor any K19 options sold outside of California. Other production plants that could have installed K19 (and required K24) for other areas of the country and K24 sales reported would be for every engine where it wasn't required (K19/K24) or standard (L34/L79).

Great discussion...:D

Dale,
K24 was standard on L34 and L78 engines and probably on 67 L79s also. The open element air cleaner used closed positive crankcase ventilation as standard, so the only useage of K24 would be on engines like the L35 that had open positive ventilation standard.

I would not consider the K19 package standard on an EX engine. I would consider the EX engine as part of a K19 option. The engine only had the special exhaust manifolds on it as received from Tonowanda plus a few other components, perhaps (special distributor?). L35s had Quadrajet manifolds instead of Holleys. The rest of the equipment was ordered separately and engine was completed at the vehicle assembly plant.

This also raises the issue of logistics for a plant like Atlanta building an odd engine like this. They would have to order all the odd pulleys, belts, air cleaners, hoses. Plus training for the assembly person. I just can't see any other assembly plant doing this in 66 or 67. 68 would be different as smog pumps became standard for many engines in all 50 states.

I agree that this great discussion. I would like to know how complete the California smog engines were when shipped from Tonowanda. The AIM would give us a clue as any parts installed at Fremont would have part numbers listed under K19.

Devil's advocate here...
The reported options sales figures are why I tend to think the K19 "...required for California registration..." (not California production) units are not included in the 42,147 reported sold as options.

We have to take into account, though, what the A.I.R. equipment was for -- emissions control was it's only purpose. It did not improve performance (probably reduced HP if anything), and it did not otherwise improve the "driving experience" in any way.

So, is it plausible to think that 42,147 people who lived in states that did not mandate A.I.R. would have elected to pay $$ to add the K19 "option" to their new car, just to reduce emissions? Seems extremely unlikely to me, especially in 1967 when 99.9% of the US population outside the Los Angeles area did not even know what "air quality" meant.

The 67 figures for K19 (A.I.R.) is 42,147, the figures for K24 (closed pos vent) is only 40,515 and the production reported for Fremont is 61,500. The "...exclusive to California registration..." and sales numbers would indicate 19,353 Chevelles built at Fremont were apparently for dealers outside of California; that's reasonable. If K19 (A.I.R.) was only available when K24 (closed pos vent) was ordered, why would the figures for K24 be 1,632 less than K19? Odd...

I think one logical conclusion would be that a certain # (let's call that # 'X') of the K19 cars built were L34, L78 or L79, which all had Pos. Cr. ventilation already, meaning that K24 was not ordered on those cars since the PCV equipment was already included. That number 'X' would be something equal to or greater than 1,632 cars, explaining the difference.

If and to the extent 'X' was greater than 1,632 cars, that excess would equal the # of cars ordered with K24 PCV that were not K19 cars.

For example, let's pretend for sake of an example that 3000 cars were ordered with K24 PCV that were not K19 cars. If that were the case, then the figures would be:

42,147 K19 cars
4,632 of those = L34, L78 or L79 cars with K19
37,515 of those = other engines with K19

40,515 K24 cars
3,000 of those = K24 PCV that were not K19 cars
37,515 of those = engines with K19 other than L34, L78 or L79 (matches figure above)

I guess I should have believed them in school when they said I'd eventually find some use for that Algebra thing !! :D

I think one logical conclusion would be that a certain # (let's call that # 'X') of the K19 cars built were L34, L78 or L79, which all had Pos. Cr. ventilation already, meaning that K24 was not ordered on those cars since the PCV equipment was already included. That number 'X' would be something equal to or greater than 1,632 cars, explaining the difference.

If and to the extent 'X' was greater than 1,632 cars, that excess would equal the # of cars ordered with K24 PCV that were not K19 cars.

For example, let's pretend for sake of an example that 3000 cars were ordered with K24 PCV that were not K19 cars. If that were the case, then the figures would be:

42,147 K19 cars
4,632 of those = L34, L78 or L79 cars with K19
37,515 of those = other engines with K19

40,515 K24 cars
3,000 of those = K24 PCV that were not K19 cars
37,515 of those = engines with K19 other than L34, L78 or L79 (matches figure above)

I guess I should have believed them in school when they said I'd eventually find some use for that Algebra thing !! :D

I'm not sure what to think about the 4632 number that includes the extra 3000; I'm still trying to comprehend, that. But consider this:

Tonowanda production numbers show that there were 2540 L34 A.I.R. engines built and 34 L78 EX engines built. A number of these would be service units. But, this number alone could account for the 1632 difference between K19 and K24 numbers. So, how many L79s were built for California?

Jeff, my daughter who took her LSAT two weeks ago will be pleased that lawyers don't need to use math. Even though she got an A in pre-calc., she does not like math! :noway: :D

Edit:
I think there is a problem with the 4632 number and the 3000. Aren't you saying the 3000 (included in the 4632) up top has K19 and the 3000 in the bottom does not have K19?

Forgot about the L78 being an open element unit as well. :clonk:

I think it was Mike Crown that mentioned one time that there were 630 L78s built at Tonawanda; 596 were EG coded and 34 EX coded for California use and 18 for service replacements. If that's accurate, and no reason to doubt it, it means Fremont built 5.5% of the L78s that were to be registered in California and probably a few more for other states. Fremont produced 15.6% of all 67 Chevelles so it would appear their percentage of L78s was lower than average. They would have had to built 95 total to match their overall 15.6% total.

I guess it still comes down to the question as to whether the reported number of K19 and K24 numbers reported sold are a grand total or are they those sold over-and-above what would be standard (i.e., mandated) for use such as those produced and sold for the California market.

Interesting discussion. :yes:

Yes Dale, I said that on page 2 in bold.

SEEING the actual Deck Stamp on the car in question goes a long way to determing any possible theory of what could have happened, especially in a world of "anything is possible" :)

As was said, real or fake.... Leads to great discussion!

Somehow I missed your second post on page 1 concerning the numbers. :bow: But I think you mentioned it before as well.

I think there is a problem with the 4632 number and the 3000. Aren't you saying the 3000 (included in the 4632) up top has K19 and the 3000 in the bottom does not have K19?

I just made up a figure (3000) for the example (that's why I said let's "pretend" ;) ). The 3000 in the bottom example is the "pretend" # of K24 cars without K19. Those 3000 are not in the top example - it's just a figure of 4632 L34 / L78 / L79 K19 cars. That figure will necessarily equal (A) the total # of K19 cars minus (B) the total # of cars with K24 and K19. And B will equal the total # of K24 cars minus the pretend 3000 K24 cars without K19. So that gives you 42147-(40515-3000). Which equals 42147-(37515). Which equals 4632. :thumbsup:

As you noted, if we knew the # of L79's with AIR we could do this without any made up #'s. But if we use the actual figures for L78 and L34 with AIR that you posted, and pretend that the percentage of L79's with AIR was the same as the percentage of L78's with AIR (5.55%), then the figures would be:

42,147 K19 cars
2,540 of those = L34 cars with K19
34 = L78 cars with K19
225 = L79 cars with K19 (estimated # based on 4048 L79's x 5.55% with AIR)
leaves 39,348 = other engines with K19
40,515 K24 cars
39,348 of those = engines with K19 other than L34, L78 or L79 (from figure above)
leaves 1,167 = K24 PCV cars that were not K19 cars
Now I am going to go take 2 Advil for my headache! :(
Jeff

I'll bet your classmates in school Loved you Jeff :boxing: :D