Hey guys!
I thought I would share with you some pics of the C5 install.

These brakes are on a friends '69 Chevelle convert' up in Canada (now that's a true die hard GM A-body fan to have a convertible up there :D ).

Pic #1 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/InstallC5.JPG)

Pic #2 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/InstallC5II.JPG)

Pic #3 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/InstallC5III.JPG)

Pic #4 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/InstallC5IV.JPG)

Pic #5 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/InstallC5V.JPG)

The pics are also up on my website. Let me know what you think!

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Joe

Looks cool there Cooter! :D

Originally posted by airrj:
Looks cool there Cooter! :D Respect the Cooter (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/CooterPic.jpg)! :D graemlins/beers.gif

Joe

72SSAbody you are putting c5 corvette brakes on the tall spindles? Why? This is a swap that would be twice as hard due to the intergated caliper brackets, while screwing up the steering geometry. :confused: This makes no sense what so ever, it would be easier to use the drum brake spindles then built caliper brackets. What happened to the Disc brake stuff? ;)

What size rim did this conversion dictate?.............john

Looks awesome Joe, Great job! Let us know how it works and what MC you are planning to use.

Those are fricking HUGE rotors! Gotta get some on the Nova...

Bill C.

Originally posted by Q-ship:
72SSAbody you are putting c5 corvette brakes on the tall spindles? Why? This is a swap that would be twice as hard due to the intergated caliper bracketsQ-ship,
Some people like a challenge in life. As a fellow engineer and gearhead, I would think you would understand this. If I didn't like the challenge, then I would be driving an econobox from point A to B everyday.

Originally posted by Q-ship:
This makes no sense what so ever, it would be easier to use the drum brake spindles then built caliper brackets.That swap has already been performed. A search through David Pozzi's website would show you how to do that.

Originally posted by Q-ship:
What happened to the Disc brake stuff? ;) BTW, when are you going to yank your tall spindles off your car and swap me my stock setup for your tall spindle setup?? I'm ready when you are. I would think for a guy that claims the sky is falling when a tall spindle thread pops up would be more willing to trade his tall spindles for a valueable set of stock disc A-body brakes. ;)

Originally posted by ponjohn:
What size rim did this conversion dictate?.............johnHi John,
I haven't seen you around the board for a while. Glad to see another pontiac guy here.

The wheels need to be at least 17". Though some 17's won't even fit without a spacer on the hub due to clearance issues with the spokes of the wheel hitting the caliper. So check for clearances on the wheels before you invest.

BTW, if you are interested in the swap I have another set of caliper brackets ready to bolt on.

Originally posted by BC:
Looks awesome Joe, Great job! Let us know how it works and what MC you are planning to use.

Those are fricking HUGE rotors! Gotta get some on the Nova...

Bill C.Bill long time no "hear from"!

I do believe the S-10 manual 15/16" quick take up master cylinder will work very well with this setup while using the stock booster. As you know the piston area of the PBR's is no where near the suburban caliper piston area, thus we've got to generate as much force as possible to get these calipers to clamp down on the rotors well.

How's the work coming along with the new motor?

Joe

Joe,
Have you tried the s10 MC in a manual setup before? I'd like to try that swap and since I need new lines on the 'Velle anyway...

The 'new' motor and tranny got planted late Sunday, so not as far as I had hoped. I still need to get everything hooked back up, so hopefully by this weekend it will be ready to fire up and break in! I keep you posted!

Bill C.

Concerning the MC issue, I'm currently running a 15/16" bore MC in a manual setup using my Baers (also PBRs). Pedal is hard. You can stop OK around town with some leg effort, but you can't stop fast! At least I can't, not even with two feet on the brakes. Can't build enough pressure to generate a good bite with the PBRs. That's why I'm putting a Hydroboost on.

Anyhow, I think the S-10 MC should work quite well in a power setup with PBRs. My '89 Turbo Trans Am has the 1LE brakes (C4 Corvette PBR calipers front and rear) and it uses a 1" primary bore quick take up MC, similar to the S-10. Great brakes on the car, and a good pedal feel too. I prefer the pedal on the right, but the one on the left does a very good job when needed. tongue.gif

Troy

Looks great, Joe! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Hey Joe, thanks.

My one concern in performing the c5 swap IS...when mounting slicks/dot's on the car i want to be able to buy a decent set. Are they available in 17"? i have not looked one bit....i will venture over to the summit site to check it out...thanks for the info.....john

joe, looks good. graemlins/thumbsup.gif
nothing ventured nothing gained.

Originally posted by Gokou:
Concerning the MC issue, I'm currently running a 15/16" bore MC in a manual setup using my Baers (also PBRs). Pedal is hard. You can stop OK around town with some leg effort, but you can't stop fast! At least I can't, not even with two feet on the brakes. Can't build enough pressure to generate a good bite with the PBRs. That's why I'm putting a Hydroboost on.

Anyhow, I think the S-10 MC should work quite well in a power setup with PBRs. My '89 Turbo Trans Am has the 1LE brakes (C4 Corvette PBR calipers front and rear) and it uses a 1" primary bore quick take up MC, similar to the S-10. Great brakes on the car, and a good pedal feel too. I prefer the pedal on the right, but the one on the left does a very good job when needed. tongue.gif

Troy Troy,
If you remember a couple of months ago I e-mailed you about your brakes (specifically your master cylinder). Thanks for the advice.

But I wanted to bring up, in this thread, an important question.

I'm going to "gut" the combination valve (basically taking the spring out on the rear circuit of the valve) to make the valve just a warning switch for the idiot light on the dash.

I've done this a couple of times on Fox body Mustangs that swap over to SN95 ('94+) Cobra brake systems (13" discs up front and 12" in the rear). The Cobra disc swap then places the adjustable proportioning valve after the gutted combination valve and seems to work very well.

The engineer inside me understands why you would want to do this, but I was wondering why Baer's kit would put it before the combination valve??? Is it ease of reaching the knob and adjusting it...or????

And another thing:
On your 1LE equiped Turbo T/A, does it have hydroboost like the Grand Nationals have or is it a dual diaphram booster? I'm thinking the 15/16" S-10 manual brake master cylinder will work well due to its smaller bore size (better hydraulic mechanical advantage) and since it has the shallow pushrod hole (perfect for our stock boosters on our cars).

Anyways, let me know what you guys think! And thanks again for the kind words. I'm trying to get another person interested in performing the swap to see if the brackets are truly able to be produced in significant quantities for others to try. If anyone is willing to try it, please let me know.

Thanks again,
Joe

Originally posted by ponjohn:
Hey Joe, thanks.

My one concern in performing the c5 swap IS...when mounting slicks/dot's on the car i want to be able to buy a decent set. Are they available in 17"? i have not looked one bit....i will venture over to the summit site to check it out...thanks for the info.....john Sorry John, I almost missed your question.

I do believe you are asking if there good tires/slicks out there for 17" wheels.

I can personally tell you that Nitto and BFGoodrich make a very sticky street drag radial. I'm not sure if anyone makes a 17" bias ply drag tire, but if you do the swap your rear rotor size will probably be 12 inchers (due to popularity of the swaps that are easy out there) in which case you can run 15" wheels out back still for when you head to the track.

Thanks again guys for your comments!

Joe

Joe... I remember your email. Anyways here go the answers.

About the adjustable proportioning valve: I installed the adjustable prop valve before the distribution block and under the master cylinder for ease of adjustment initially. Bad move on my part! I should have known better. The pressure front to rear circuit imbalance caused by the adjustable valve caused the safety switch in the distribution block to trip on moderate stops, which cut off the back brakes. I've now relocated the proportioning valve to AFTER the distribution block/switch on the frame so the block sees identical pressures, and the switch no longer trips. My'69 block on the frame is just a safety switch block; no check valves or anything else. I think they moved that stuff to the frame block in '71. You don't want check valves on a disc system, or you'll drag the pads. Mine do not drag.

As far as my TTA, it uses a dual diaphragm vacuum booster. The early TR's and GNs used a Hydroboost, and the later models used the electric PowerMaster. The vacuum booster on the TTA works pretty darn well. The GM shop manual gives the following description for the master cylinder: "The master cylinder used for 4-wheel disc cars is of a 1" bore quick take up design." I would expect the quick take up 15/16" bore S-10 MC to have a similar pedal travel because of the quick take up, but a lower pedal effort because of the smaller bore size. Again, this is comparing apples to oranges because my TTA is only 3250lbs, and the pedal ratio may be way different from our Chevelles. I would give the S-10 MC a try. It's fairly cheap, and seems to work quite well, and since GM used a quick take up on PBR equipped cars it should work well on yours as well.

I bought the Hydroboost for my Chevelle because it only makes about 5-6" of vacuum at idle, and I didn't want to use a noisy electric vacuum pump. The new Hydroboosts are killer units, free of the reliability problems they had in the early-mid '80s. The Blue Oval gang uses them on their PBR equipped Cobra's. I've driven a 2001 Cobra (belongs to my boss's wife), and the brakes are great. I'll have a full report on how the PBRs and the Hydroboost get along once I get a working transmission back in my car and can drive it again.

Troy

Joe - I gotta say, this is awesome! I'm going to start tearing my El Camino apart over the summer, and when it goes back together, I wanted it to be a pretty cool pro-touring style ride. I was gonna put the Baer system on, but I was going to have to wait until I could save up the money. Now, I'd really like to take a shot at this swap. If you're looking for a guinea pig, I'd definitely be up for helping you get more data. It just might take me awhile before I would get a chance to try it. Shoot me an email if you'd like!

Way cool!!!!!!!
Ryan

Are those just regular 1982-1992 Camaro front discs that the hubs are made from, or are they from a specific model?

GREAT JOB! graemlins/hurray.gif keep us posted graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by derekf:
Are those just regular 1982-1992 Camaro front discs that the hubs are made from, or are they from a specific model? Yep, OEM dinky third gen. front rotors.

You could only get two front brake systems on the third gen. f-bodies. One was with the RPO 1LE 12" disc option like Troy has on his TT/A that used PBR's and the other was standard issue 10.5" disc that was used from the iron duke four banger to the non-1LE IROC/Z28.

Originally posted by derekf:

As far as my TTA, it uses a dual diaphragm vacuum booster. The early TR's and GNs used a Hydroboost, and the later models used the electric PowerMaster. The vacuum booster on the TTA works pretty darn well. The GM shop manual gives the following description for the master cylinder: "The master cylinder used for 4-wheel disc cars is of a 1" bore quick take up design." I would expect the quick take up 15/16" bore S-10 MC to have a similar pedal travel because of the quick take up, but a lower pedal effort because of the smaller bore size. Again, this is comparing apples to oranges because my TTA is only 3250lbs, and the pedal ratio may be way different from our Chevelles. I would give the S-10 MC a try. It's fairly cheap, and seems to work quite well, and since GM used a quick take up on PBR equipped cars it should work well on yours as well.

TroyAnother question for you Troy. Is the front brake circuit on your T/A hooked up to the front reservoir or hooked up in the rear reservoir of the master cylinder?

The reason I ask is because I remember Andrewb70 and David Pozzi talking about running the front brake circuit to the rear reservoir of the master cylinder due to its quick take up design.

Can you check on your T/A and see what GM has done??

graemlins/beers.gif

Thanks again guys for the kind words and help!

Joe

Joe,
What happened to your email address? Was checking out your web site and wanted to 'discuss' a few things with you! ;)

Anyway, I'd love to help you out with the test, just can't afford it right now. Trying to buy a new house...

Also, I've seen several references lately to people not liking the way their PBR disk brakes are working... do you know of anyone who is happy using those calipers in a MANUAL brake setup? I'd like to know what MC they are using, seems like none of the recommended ones work too well without power assist.

Thanks again,
Bill C.

Originally posted by Elusive_R:
Joe - I gotta say, this is awesome! I'm going to start tearing my El Camino apart over the summer, and when it goes back together, I wanted it to be a pretty cool pro-touring style ride. I was gonna put the Baer system on, but I was going to have to wait until I could save up the money. Now, I'd really like to take a shot at this swap. If you're looking for a guinea pig, I'd definitely be up for helping you get more data. It just might take me awhile before I would get a chance to try it. Shoot me an email if you'd like!

Way cool!!!!!!!
Ryan Ryan,
Thanks for the complements, but you'll have to search the this forum to see that a lot of guys that have posted here have helped me out in more ways than I can afford to pay them back for.

graemlins/beers.gif

If you are interested (wanna be a guinea pig) in the swap later on this year let me know. Us engineering students have to stick together ;)

Originally posted by BC:
Joe,
What happened to your email address? Was checking out your web site and wanted to 'discuss' a few things with you!

Anyway, I'd love to help you out with the test, just can't afford it right now. Trying to buy a new house...

Also, I've seen several references lately to people not liking the way their PBR disk brakes are working... do you know of anyone who is happy using those calipers in a MANUAL brake setup? I'd like to know what MC they are using, seems like none of the recommended ones work too well without power assist.

Thanks again,
Bill C.
Hey Bill. I just sent you an e-mail. Let me know if you don't get it.

Care to buy me a house too? Or how about just finding an entry level engineering job for me? HD seems to be in a hiring freeze, thus they won't take my skinny butt back :(

As for the manual setup with the PBRs. I think its not going to be a viable option to run them without some sort of power assist since the piston area is not anywhere near the size of the iron calipers :( I'm sure you could do like Troy and run them for awhile in a manual mode, but you'll soon want some sort of power assist (like vacuum assist or hydroboost) as you leg will definately get a work out.

We'll I'm off to graemlins/boring.gif . Just got done with my last test for my undergraduate degree graemlins/clonk.gif

Thanks again guys,
Joe

Got the email Joe, Thanks.

On the quick take-up MC's, didn't someone have a line on a MC that had a 1" bore and was the quick take-up design? Seems like that might work pretty good or the s-10 one... but keep in mind Joe, I like the single piston, really CHEAP calipers and will plan to use those! just trying to sort it all out before I tear things apart!

Thanks again for all the R&D!

Bill C.

Joe, I just cleaned and put the cover back on the TTA (took it on a little trip today and got a ride in The Mule graemlins/thumbsup.gif )

I'll have a look see at it tomorrow when I get home, but I'm 90% sure that the rear port on the MC is for the front brakes, and the front port is for the rear brakes.

On the plastic reservoir MC's the rear reservoir is usually larger, and thus goes to the front brakes because the larger front calipers need more fluid.

Again, I'll make sure tomorrow, I just tucked it in for bedtime about an hour ago.

Troy

Thanks Troy. I look forward to hearing back.

You're a lucky dog to ride in the Mule :D

Originally posted by BC:
On the quick take-up MC's, didn't someone have a line on a MC that had a 1" bore and was the quick take-up design? Seems like that might work pretty good or the s-10 one... but keep in mind Joe, I like the single piston, really CHEAP calipers and will plan to use those! just trying to sort it all out before I tear things apart!

Thanks again for all the R&D!

Bill C.Bill,
I think the power brake equiped S-10's came with the 1" bore MC, a deep pushrod hole and correct thread size for our brake line fittings. Perfect for your manual brakes graemlins/thumbsup.gif

The only bad thing (that you won't have to worry about since you have manual brakes) is the O.D. on the MC needs to be slightly turned down to fit inside the power booster.

Joe

Joe, I just confirmed the line routing on my TTA. Front port to rear brakes, rear port to front brakes.

Troy

Thanks Troy! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Here is a few more quick shots to make the mouths water.

All the good stuff for the swap (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/RichardsPic2.JPG)


13" C5 rotor verses stock GM A-body 11" disc (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/72SSAbody/RichardsPic1.JPG)

graemlins/beers.gif

Joe

Ohhh, Joe,
You didn't need to do that! Now I feel so... inadequate!

Man! those sure look sweet!


PS. Do you have a listing on what year s10s would have had the 1" power MC with the deep hole?

Thanks again!

Bill C.

Joe,
That looks beautiful - enough to make a grown man cry! Where'd you get the slotted and drilled rotors from and how much do they run?

Thanks again,
Ryan

Originally posted by BC:
Ohhh, Joe,
You didn't need to do that! Now I feel so... inadequate!

Dont feel that way Bill. You've got beer and Joe is stuck drinking diet pepsi. tongue.gif :D

I will only add more of the same - Damn sweet. Them rotors are bigger than my turkey platter at thanksgiving. Awesome. :cool:

Originally posted by BC:
Ohhh, Joe,
You didn't need to do that! Now I feel so... inadequate!

Man! those sure look sweet!


PS. Do you have a listing on what year s10s would have had the 1" power MC with the deep hole?

Thanks again!

Bill C. Bill your 'vette brake setup isn't inadequate. Hell, you saved $$$ over this setup and it generates more braking torque. You can use your money saved to buy other speed parts. This setup just generates more "bling bling" effect for those damn ricer kids to gleam over ;)

I looked up the ACDelco part number for the power and manual setup. Looks like I was wrong. The power setup has a 15/16" bore, but it has a 36mm (1.417") secondary bore (the quick take up portion of the MC).

The manual MC has a 15/16" bore with a 31.75mm secondary bore and the shallow bore (verses the deep bore with the S10 power MC).

Time to go drink some graemlins/beers.gif ;)

Joe

Here is more info on the s-10 m/c......John


http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html

Joe,
I was referring to my nova that just has the stock disk up front and 11" drums in the rear. You're correct, the Chevelle is pretty nice and I like the brakes on it!

The Nova I want to keep manual, but eventually work out the 12" rotors over the drum hub deal and put on the Suburban calipers. I'd also like to throw on some rear disk brakes and use 454's pinion mounted parking brake system.

Bill C.

Originally posted by Elusive_R:
Joe,
That looks beautiful - enough to make a grown man cry! Where'd you get the slotted and drilled rotors from and how much do they run?

Thanks again,
Ryan Ryan,
Click here (https://www.kvrperformance.com/index.html) for the rotors. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Joe

my own little postmark for these pages.....nice stuff ...especially since i have a full c5 brake setup in the garage..hehehehehehhe

WHOA!. Now thats what I call bring a thread back from the dead.

WHOA!. Now thats what I call bring a thread back from the dead.
i use the search function so much i dont even look at the dates.......as you see i am not a post whore lol lol but i am defiantly a reader....this site has some dang good stuff in the archives

hi, just joined the sight for this article... doing same setup on my 67 pontiac lemans and was wondering if anybody uses the 80's "G" body brake booster and 80's "B" body master cylinder, car craft did this couple years ago and havent heard much since but a couple of times, is this not adequate for this setup? it has a 1 1\8 bore and are cheap- got mine for 6 bucks off ebay. i am peicing my car together and have done almost everything myselffrom what i read off great sites like this, so any feed back on this master/booster combo would be greatly app.:thumbsup: