Nice 1970 Chevelle SS396 but something suspicious between trim tag and paperwork. One problem is glaring but there are some other subtle problems. Care to try it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110431482210

The build sheet doesn't look 40 years old.

The build sheet doesn't look 40 years old.

And one of the hundreds I've seen with the same spring marks.

the car invoice looks like it reads 1959.

Trim Tag says:

TR 796 48 G PNT

Green Vinyl Bucket seats Forest Green Green Vinyl Top

"Build Sheet" says 48 48 W = Forest Green NO vinyl top

edit: Window sticker, dealer invoice don't list an optional Vinyl top either.
Possible error on the 'cowl tag' ?

edit: Data processing numbers on last line of tag do not appear in locations on the build sheet according to info at:
http://www.chevellestuff.com/1970/tags.htm



Dan

so if this is a fake and this dealership is advertising this car as a real car, isn't that bordering on fraud?

lol yes I am waiting for someone to say caveat emptor :P

Depending where the BS was found on an L built car. That BS is a joke. If I had to sit on that one spring:( (no fold line or othet marks) looks vary odd to me. Not an expert 70 BS just my 2 cents.

I would have sworn there was a pic of the trim tag, which if you look now is gone......??

I would have sworn there was a pic of the trim tag, which if you look now is gone......??


there was I looked at it as well. I am looking for the "cached" jpg now.

firefox doesnt cache it like IE would. I do not have that picture but I saw the trim tag. it had fresh black paint on it.

The auction has been pulled and the photo of the trim tag is missing not only from the eBay auction site but their list of photos as well. Here's the trim tag and build sheet. Tsk, tsk...:noway:

The "044793" number should be the first 6-digit number from block 24, the "23" portion of the second set should be the SCHED number from block 10, and the "0070" portion of the second set should be the 4-digit number from block 24.

I get the feeling we are being watched ....... start a post on the car and whoosh its gone.......

yea, and the crazy part is that dealer has several high dollar cars being advertised. I wonder how many others are clones and misrepresented

Let's just hope potential buyers are watching and noting these dealers.

It's still listed on CraigsList San Francisco

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/ctd/1358473890.html

Dan

The build sheet was an obvious fake from the start.

Theres a big blank space where a picture used to be on the Craiglist ad. What do you bet that used to be a picture of the trim tag? :D

Wow ,his build sheet looks real clean.Heres mine.:hurray:

Hi guys,

I work for Specialty Sales and we have this car on consignment in our showroom. We just got this car in about a week ago and weren't aware of the discrepancy issue until we received a message from eBay user chevellecd who I am assuming is DaleM here on the forums because of his wording. Anyway, we obviously ended the auction when we came across this. We are not in the business of deceiving anyone and trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. We've been here 30 years selling classic and exotic cars and we're not going to risk our reputation on one car.

Here's a clearer shot of the cowl tag:

http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p26_l.jpg

If it comes out as being a clone, we don't want to represent it as being a legit car. I've contacted the owner of the vehicle and he said purchased it as it is now and wasn't aware of the discrepancies either and I have a feeling its traded hands a few times before this. In fact, here is the old ad from the dealer selling it prior to us:

http://www.the-car-source.com/html/2728_70_chevelle.htm

Anyway gentlemen, I appreciate the response we have received as it brought to our attention the discrepancies of the documentation. We want to find out what it really is and advertise it as such. If in fact it is a clone, someone did a hell of a job on the documentation. You can see a bigger picture of the documentation on our website. Also, someone said they thought the invoice said 1959, part of the 6 appears to be missing so I can see where you could mistake it as such, but it does say Nov 7th 1969, not 1959.

http://www.specialtysales.com/1970-chevrolet-chevelle-ss-396-c-2314.htm

I'll post higher res photos of the documents if anyone wants to see it closer. Like I said we want to represent it as it is and maybe someone out there can tell if the docs are in fact repros.

Ryan
Specialty Sales

Here are higher res pictures of the documents:

It's obvious the sequence numbers don't match between the cowl tag and box 24 on the build sheet and also the color code between the cowl tag and build sheet/window sticker. What do you guys think?

http://i28.tinypic.com/2dkieso.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/33z5rfl.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/30nb2ax.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/18hyrk.jpg

The build sheet is definitely a fake.

Ryan
Welcome to Team Chevelle!
Great to see you come on the site to find out more info on the car.
Several things will help as we check this car out more carefully.
Post some clear photos of the engine identification and partial V.I.N. on the pad behind the alternator.
Take a photo of the code on the rear axle tube - front of the tube on the right of the car. Also the cast in date code in the lower right gusset of the back (bolt side) of the diff. housing.
Take a clear photo of the V.I.N. plate on top of the dash. and the paper tag on the driver's door.
Do you have any info on who may have restored the car?


Dan

There are discrepencies in the other paperwork as well - Buildsheet and Window Sticker has the dealer name spelled MCKAY, the rest of the paperwork has it spelled MACKAY.

Thanks for coming on and explaining. Nice to meet honest people.

Thanks for coming on and explaining. Nice to meet honest people.

X2 :yes:

I would have sworn there was a pic of the trim tag, which if you look now is gone......??
Good find Dale.

http://images5.ecarlist.com/photos/1412_410711/640/35.jpg

Thanks for coming on and explaining. Nice to meet honest people.X3. Looking at the POP imprint on the the pre delivery sheet and the sales invoice, it probably is a 396/TH400 Chevelle. The, apparently, reproduction build sheet & window sticker are what casts the shadow of doubt on the car when no shadow of doubt should exist. This probably happens a lot where someone has a legitimate car but tries to bring reproduction paperwork into the arena as further proof and, as I said, brings doubt on the car.

The car source link says the car has its warranty card Protect-O-Plate (POP) and is numbers matching. If the POP is still attached to the warranty book and matches the imprint on the pre delivery sheet, it goes a long way to showing it's legit. Photos of partial VIN stampings on the engine pad and TH400 would help as well.

I looked at other vehicles the dealer sells and I'm sure they were caught off guard with this one. They have too many outstanding high-end cars to take a chance on something in this price range. Kudos for coming on the forum!

I've seen this on many of the reproduced buildsheets...it's a manual transmission car, but the build sheet shows automatic trans cooler lines in box #103

The POP imprint means almost nothing anymore as the POP's have been reproduced for years. It may help to look over the original POP if it's available.

I've seen this on many of the reproduced buildsheets...it's a manual transmission car, but the build sheet shows automatic trans cooler lines in box #103


All the paperwork shows it as an automatic trans, but it really is a moot point as the papers look to be repos.

I know POP reproduction is rampant but few would think to imprint it on the dealer prep sheet. And, as I said, if it's still attached to the warranty book, it would show age.

I've seen this on many of the reproduced buildsheets...it's a manual transmission car, but the build sheet shows automatic trans cooler lines in box #103Haven't seen that before but this one happens to be a TH400 car though. ;)

so after all is said and done, this car is most likely a geniune SS car, but someone fabricated papers to make it more desirable and to reflect modifications that has been made over the life of the car?

if that is true its sad. I would be proud to own that car and would consider a purchase but when people have gone to such lengths to mask the truth is makes it undermines that sale

My mistake...I got this car confused with a green '70 SS that I looked at yesterday...it was a 4spd. For some reason I thought the ad said this one was a 4spd as well. When you're checking buildsheets, it's something to look for...I've seen it three or four times, and all of them turned out to be fake buildsheets.

You guys are really something....but not in a bad way. I always like the posts that ask "what is wrong here" .... Of Coarse I never know what it is...it would have to be the wrong year car for me to know...lol ... the amount of knowledge and attention to detail many of you on this site have amazes me. Good stuff.

Once the BS failed the most obvious test for being real, I stopped looking at it. So much wrong here with this paperwork, you can't trust any of it. One would have to know block stamps and the cars, and look at the car in person to really tell what it is.

All this crap about these cars are making think twice about a purchase. Finding a car with documentation doesn't mean much anymore unless you have someone to verify the documentaion let alone the car. Dave, we might have to recruit Dale on our next car find.:beers:

:D Probably still cheaper than other avenues.... ;)

My car was built at the Van Nuys plant also and it has the engine code in the ENGINE NUMBER box above the plant name. The axle number is also identified in the AXLE NUMBER box just to the right of that box.
Other VAN NUYS build sheets I've seen look like mine.

My car was built at the Van Nuys plant also and it has the engine code in the ENGINE NUMBER box above the plant name. The axle number is also identified in the AXLE NUMBER box just to the right of that box.
Other VAN NUYS build sheets I've seen look like mine.Another plant unique item. Other plants only put the trim code above the dealer info - no paint, no engine, no transmission, nothing...

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/blackcherrySS/Mybuildsheet.jpg

Here's what my build sheet looks like. This was found above the gas tank. There was also one found inside the car, but was misplaced by the previous owner.

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/blackcherrySS/protectoplateA.jpg

Note the transmission code on my protect-o-plate has a D code when it should be a B code for an M21. I was told once that it was probably a clerical error. Someone misunderstood D for B when creating the plate.
Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the responses. Here's some photos of the VIN plate on the dash and the engine stamp. There appears to be no partial VIN stamp on the engine pad. Just the engine code that is shown in the photos. All of the documents are all framed up so I'm taking the backing off to get to the POP to see what that reveals. I'll post back later today.

Edit: I can't get a good enough angle to take a picture of the casting number, but just for reference the casting number is 3969854.

http://i30.tinypic.com/2h4caoz.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2r7xcg4.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/k2d3c8.jpg

Sorry to say, but to me that appears to be a restamp and a very bad one at that.

Thanks for the responses. Here's some photos of the VIN plate on the dash and the engine stamp. There appears to be no partial VIN stamp on the engine pad. Just the engine code that is shown in the photos. All of the documents are all framed up so I'm taking the backing off to get to the POP to see what that reveals. I'll post back later today.


http://i30.tinypic.com/k2d3c8.jpg

Engine stamp does not appear to be original factory stamping. Letters and numbers have been individually stamped. From about 1968 on (when partial VIN stamps were federally mandated), GM plants (at least) used what's commonly called a 'gang stamp' holder for the letters/numbers to keep the characters aligned.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x274/396guy/Misc/engstamper.jpg?t=1252443672

Compare this CTW example...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x274/396guy/Misc/t0922ctw.jpg?t=1252444104

In 1970, Van Nuys tended to stamp the partial VIN either on the rough cast area by the oil filter or on the bellhousing flange - often difficult to distinguish due to rough casting.

Any thoughts on this?Not that uncommon to have variations on POPs. I can't count the number of different ways I've seen transmissions, transmissions and rear ends coded on POPs. Engines and rear ends sometimes have their full 3-character suffix, sometimes just the last 2 letters. I have a 70 Arlington M21 with BWL suffix - WL is what's coded on the build sheet for transmission type; go figure...;)

Had to dismantle the framework to get to the POP but here it is. It is the same stamping that is visible in the upper right hand corner of the delivery inspection sheet.

http://i26.tinypic.com/hvdlid.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/nnntir.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2z8x2x1.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/ejj3ma.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2cigohs.jpg

Engine stamp does not appear to be original factory stamping. Letters and numbers have been individually stamped. From about 1968 on (when partial VIN stamps were federally mandated), GM plants (at least) used what's commonly called a 'gang stamp' holder for the letters/numbers to keep the characters aligned.



Compare this CTW example...



In 1970, Van Nuys tended to stamp the partial VIN either on the rough cast area by the oil filter or on the bellhousing flange - often difficult to distinguish due to rough casting.

thanks for the info. I didn't look elsewhere for a partial VIN stamp.

It just keeps getting worse ... Shouldn't the buyer's name and address be in tape, not hard-stamped into the plate?? (I thought the name and address on the imprint on that inspection sheet were awfully straight the first time I looked at it!!) Dale, did GM hard-stamp replacement POP's when the original booklet was lost while the car was still under warranty?

If the POP is fake then the stamped inspection sheet is fake. Of course it had to be a fake anyway, since it has the "salesman's" signature on it matching the invoice, and the invoice is fake (since it does not show vinyl top) . The only thing left that could be real is, well, nothing. Add the decked and restamped block pad, and it starts to seem more and more like we might be looking at a triple-green Malibu ??? Or at best a real SS with no paperwork and a non-matching block ??

It just keeps getting worse ... Shouldn't the buyer's name and address be in tape, not hard-stamped into the plate?? (I thought the name and address on the imprint on that inspection sheet were awfully straight the first time I looked at it!!) Dale, did GM hard-stamp replacement POP's when the original booklet was lost while the car was still under warranty?

If the POP is fake then the stamped inspection sheet is fake. Of course it had to be a fake anyway, since it has the "salesman's" signature on it matching the invoice, and the invoice is fake (since it does not show vinyl top) . The only thing left that could be real is, well, nothing. Add the decked and restamped block pad, and it starts to seem more and more like we might be looking at a triple-green Malibu ??? Or at best a real SS with no paperwork and a non-matching block ??

Would the vinyl top be listed as an option on the invoice? Wasn't aware of the POP having to be lined in tape. I know I have seen them with tape on the name and address but surely there are a bunch of these that got sent out without tape or removed or peeled away over the years, no? I wouldn't say because it doesn't have tape would be surefire proof it's a fake POP. When I took it out of the frame to scan it, it is definitely aged and fragile as most of them always are.

After reading your guys' input, I figured the build sheet and window sticker to be repros. I thought the dealer inspection sheet and possibly the invoice to be original. I figure it was an original vinyl top car, correct color combination, correct engine (gotta check to see if there's a partial VIN elsewhere and also need to check the trans and rear-end) some correct paperwork, original A/C, power steering, cowl induction, gauges, buckets and console equipped car. I'm gonna try to get it in the air sometime tomorrow to verify any additional numbers. I'll also get some undercarriage photos as well.

We're not sure who restored the car, but it truly is a fantastic looking and driving Chevelle. Definitely one of the nicer ones we've seen come through here recently. I just want to get the real story ironed out so it can be advertised properly. Thanks for all your guys' help thus far!

Well, there is one Michael A Noad that comes up with an Intellius search, and he's listed as being 75 years old. He's listed in California. There is also a 620 Cullum Avenue in Hurst Texas too..... I suppose you could get his number from one of those services and ask him if he bought a new 1970 Chevelle SS 396....

It just keeps getting worse ... Shouldn't the buyer's name and address be in tape, not hard-stamped into the plate?? (I thought the name and address on the imprint on that inspection sheet were awfully straight the first time I looked at it!!) Dale, did GM hard-stamp replacement POP's when the original booklet was lost while the car was still under warrantyThe POP apparently isn't the original factory one since, as you say, the buyer's info should be on tape. The assembly plant created the POP but wouldn't know, or care, who the buyer was much less the date it would finally be delivered (11-7-1969). And, if the buyer didn't take delivery of the car for whatever reason, someone would need to create a new POP.

I've never seen a replacement POP due to the original owner losing it. I've seen replacement POPs when a car is sold with the warranty intact but much of the information is missing. Normally only the VIN, warranty period (5-50), original dealer's number and date of original warranty is stamped on the card. I have a couple from 1969 but none from 1970 so it MAY have been different.

http://www.chevellestuff.com/1969/chevelle/tags/kan/pop_136379k422863.jpg

I would surmise that if the POP were lost and a replacement made for the owner that (1) it wouldn't contain the engine, transmission, rear end data or the options codes since that might not be known after time had passed and (2) if it were put back into a warranty book it progbably wouldn't have the dealer receipt date, deliver date, and the various signatures on the warranty book. And I would think the dealers name stamped on the warranty book would match the dealer invoice - another MCKAY vs. MACKAY.

I was just looking at the pics of car after following this post.Beautiful car,dont know if its the photos but to me something looks off in all the front grill/hood photos?

A friend of mine has started visiting this site. He wheels and deals a ton of cars and I have told him about how you guys can pick one to pieces. It made for great humor on the phone yesterday between the 2 of us. I can only imagine the thought that runs through the minds of the Muscle Car dealers when they have a potential buyer tell them they will have the car checked out by Team Chevelle. Lets hope this guy stays honest and relist the car properly unless it can be proved otherwise. It is a nice looking ride but what is something like this worth now?

Well one things for sure. The "dealers" are now armed with the right information. They'll be back with a different car and different paperwork.

It's a damn shame greedy people had to screw up this hobby!

Well one things for sure. The "dealers" are now armed with the right information. They'll be back with a different car and different paperwork.

It's a damn shame greedy people had to screw up this hobby!

Well, we really haven't told them exactly what's wrong with their Docs so they can make them perfect. A few people THINK they can make perfect fake paper, but we bust them all the time. Bring 'em on! :yes: :D :beers:

I guess that explains a few things. I often get frustrated reading this board when you guys all talk about the obvious fake BS and such...and you all seem to know what's wrong, but nobody usually says it....I say I get frustrated because I don't know about these things, but I find it very interesting,especially when you guys find a fake. I guess now I know why you never openly post the clues that tell you...at least not all of them.:)

I know POP reproduction is rampant but few would think to imprint it on the dealer prep sheet. And, as I said, if it's still attached to the warranty book, it would show age.


Well apparently if someone is going to the trouble to forge paperwork, they WILL also take the extra effort to imprint the fake POP info onto it.

My protect-o-plate and Jon's both have tape for the buyers name.
It makes sense that it would have been created by the dealer once the new owner took possession?

So we got the car up up on the lift and was pleased to find the matching partial VIN in the rough cast above the oil filter (Full VIN: 136370L115872). Feel free to chime in on the information posted. The information regarding the rear-end and transmission is from what I was able to find online.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2u9r1x0.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/sbl9xf.jpg

Below are the rear-end numbers. From what I understand:
CCW = 3.31 Ratio, No Positraction
0912 = September 12th
B = Buffalo Plant
3969278NF = 12-Bolt Casting Number

http://i30.tinypic.com/16lciop.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/15yg4nn.jpg

Transmission tag was tough to get so that's why I posted it with different lighting. From what I understand:

CF = 402, 427, 454 / (335)
and if 233 is the assembly (Julian) date, that would be August 21st (or somewhere around there). In this case the transmission wouldn't be correct I assume?

http://i28.tinypic.com/a5iwrn.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/2ljhlzd.jpg

Here are some undercarriage photos:

http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p40_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p41_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p42_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p43_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p44_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p45_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p47_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p48_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p49_l.jpg
http://www.specialtysales.com/galleria_images/2314/2314_p50_l.jpg

Hey Specialty Sales, I live in Indiana now but my wife is from Ptown and Granada High school back 30 years ago. Do you guys own this car or is it on consignment? If it's on consignment, I'm kinda wondering what the owner has to say about the fake paperwork?

thanks