Last Saturday I went to another SOLO event in Winona MN, and of course, had a great time. This was a test-n-tune, and afterward they had runs with an instructor available for those interested, and a course-walk with the instructors as well. :cool:

Pictures here: http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/9338784_5TTue#624790598_Kyfgg (note that all pics of my car were from the first session, before I did some further tuning)

I went with the exact same setup as last time... Springs 700#/200# and only 15/16" front sway bar, 42psi in the front tires, and 38psi in the rear (cold). The only thing changed was a smaller steering wheel and a PS cooler

The smaller steering wheel made a HUGE difference. That repro "Rosewood" wheel I usually have in it is way too big for this type of driving, especially in the sloloms.

The front was clearly doing most of the work... the car was balanced perfectly, but the rear tires had too much pressure, and were not scuffing properly. I knew if I dropped the rear pressure, I'd be pushing badly... luckily, I just happened to bring a pair of 225# rear springs with me. (I have 5 pairs of rear springs for this car :D ) I changed rear springs between sessions, and took 3psi out of the rear tires.

The result was a little bit of oversteer, and almost 3 seconds off my raw time (from 71.1sec to 68.4sec, and a DNF'd 67.8) Several cones died in the process. :( Who would have thought using your whole tire would make so much difference? ;)

The car felt great until I rode in two of the instructors' cars... then mine felt like a boat. That body-roll that I couldn't tell I had felt pretty freakin' apparrent after riding in a couple much-quicker cars. :yes: Turn-in feels VERY slow now. :o

next step: figuring out how to mount a rear swaybar, and going bigger with the front one.

hopefully, i'll have some pics of me in my beat up 87 Monte SS doing that. it will either have a carbed 305 or efi 94 Caprice LT1 in it- heven't decided yet.
i will be mostly doing it up this way- in the area between Brainerd and Fargo- but if i get a wild hair up my ass i might make it down to your corner of the state and spend the weekend with some relatives in LaCrosse. there seems to be a lot more events down that way. also, i might take the car down to Car Craft so people can laugh at my car when it appears in a national magazine for knocking down the most cones..

So you don't have any kind of rear sway bar?!

Your car is so damned sexy. I never thought to ask you this until know, but I used to work with a Randy Keifer down here in Alabama. You two might just be related. If you thought I was a redneck, you should see this guy. :D

No rear swaybar, and my control arms have no provisions for a stock type bar. I either need to change arms, or use something like the SC&C/Spohn bar, or just make something else work...

I don't know of any relatives in Alabama, but if he's a true redneck, he might be related. :D

How about adapting the rear sway bar from a 67-69 F-body. It clamps to the rear axle tubes and goes foward. You would just have to figure out how to attach the endlinks. I have thought of doing this on my car, just haven't gotten around to it.

That's awesome Derek!

I want to talk to you about that Nebraska deal for next year- If you're interested, PM me.

Sounds like you're on the way to getting it dialed in. I just ordered a rear bar from DSE with the gift card I won. I'm hoping that it will cure a lot of my understeer issues. Not sure if I've asked before, but what tires are you running? I still have these damn drag radials on the back.

What size wheel did you get? Is it easy to change between them?

Derek, What size and type of tire do you run?

Ron

How about adapting the rear sway bar from a 67-69 F-body. It clamps to the rear axle tubes and goes foward. You would just have to figure out how to attach the endlinks. I have thought of doing this on my car, just haven't gotten around to it.I have a late model F-body bar laying around I've thought about trying... even if it's not close, I'll at least be able to see what needs to be different to make another make/model bar work... there's gotta be something close. :)

That's awesome Derek!

I want to talk to you about that Nebraska deal for next year- If you're interested, PM me.I'm interested, but there's a few issues that are keeping me away from the high-speed stuff for now, primarily the 1/2" spacers on my front wheels, and the 4.10 gears out back.

Sounds like you're on the way to getting it dialed in. I just ordered a rear bar from DSE with the gift card I won. I'm hoping that it will cure a lot of my understeer issues. Not sure if I've asked before, but what tires are you running? I still have these damn drag radials on the back.

What size wheel did you get? Is it easy to change between them?
It's getting there... I've figured out that several of my theories weren't completely true in practice. :o Serves me right for wanting to do it my own way instead of following the advice of the pros. :clonk: Oh well, I learned a lot more that way. :beers:

The rosewood wheel is ~15.5" and feels way too big. Before I redid my interior, I had a 13" Grant wheel in it, that I put back in for the weekend... with a steering-wheel puller, it takes about 10-15 minutes to change. :)
Derek, What size and type of tire do you run?

Ron
Tires are Kumho Ecsta MX 235/45 and 255/45 on 17x7 and 17x8 wheels. The wheels are way too small, and the tires are about as wide as you can go on them, which means there's a lot of lateral movement in the sidewalls... You can really feel the rear end move laterally with some un-smooth driving on a sustained corner, and it's all in the tires because my rear axle is located with solid rod-ends at all 8 points.

The Ecsta MXs are great when hot, but have very little grip on a cool day.

Derek - I just mocked up a suspension techniques bar I bought about 4 years ago for my car. I used stock lower control arms and just drilled the holes. It comes with inserts so it dosen't collapse the arms (which I weled in) and then I just boxed mine in. Haven't driven it yet (car is out to powdercoat only!), but with it mocked up it was a pretty sturdy piece and seemed like it would keep that rearend where I wanted it.

That Neon looks like it has lots of body roll...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5598/dodgeneon.png


While that black car right after it in your images looks like it turns like it's on rails :yes: ...

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1046/blackautocrosscar.png

Regards,
-Greg

My El Camino still has some body roll to it: :eek:
http://picasaweb.google.com/atlantamx3/2009AutocrossPoints9082309#5373385555685563922

That's with 1-1/8" front bar, 1000 lb front springs, 350 lb rear and no rear sway bar (and stage II in front and 3-link in rear). The V710's grip probably increases the roll, not as much roll on street tires. A rear bar would help some, just need to lighten the spring rate out back. The center of gravity is a bit high on our cars, which doesn't help either, especially compared to late Camaros and Corvettes.

Derek - I just mocked up a suspension techniques bar I bought about 4 years ago for my car. I used stock lower control arms and just drilled the holes. It comes with inserts so it dosen't collapse the arms (which I weled in) and then I just boxed mine in. Haven't driven it yet (car is out to powdercoat only!), but with it mocked up it was a pretty sturdy piece and seemed like it would keep that rearend where I wanted it.Andy, I have Wolfe Racecraft tubular lower arms, which will not accept a stock bar. I've boxed stock lowers for other cars though for stock type sway bars.

While that black car right after it in your images looks like it turns like it's on rails :yes: ...

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1046/blackautocrosscar.png
I didn't ask what his times were in the second session, but his first session best run was a 67.4, so we were running nearly identical times. He had better tires, but his suspension is all stock.

My El Camino still has some body roll to it: :eek:
http://picasaweb.google.com/atlantamx3/2009AutocrossPoints9082309#5373385555685563922

That's with 1-1/8" front bar, 1000 lb front springs, 350 lb rear and no rear sway bar (and stage II in front and 3-link in rear). The V710's grip probably increases the roll, not as much roll on street tires. A rear bar would help some, just need to lighten the spring rate out back. The center of gravity is a bit high on our cars, which doesn't help either, especially compared to late Camaros and Corvettes.3-link? :cool: What height is your RRCH? Panhard or Watts? A lower RCH will create more roll.

Pink wheels on the S14...

3-link? :cool: What height is your RRCH? Panhard or Watts? A lower RCH will create more roll.

If I remember right the RRCH is around 10-11", range is from 9-12", its a panhard bar. Mark at SCandC told me that it would work better with it being higher. I have tried it higher but no SOTP difference that I could tell (or see in photos). With hindsight, I wish I had built in more adjustment there. I have this bracket: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/BEHIND-REAR-END-PANHARD-BAR-BRACKET-WELD-ON,3381.html which limits the height to just above axle centerline.

I sometimes wonder if the smaller "greenhouse" of the El Camino compared to a Chevelle is why there is not a noticeable difference in body roll when changing the bar height. There's not a lot of metal above the hood level. I do have too much rear spring rate which may be pushing the rear up some in corners, and the rear is higher than the front. I want to try some 200-225 lb springs with a rear sway bar in the future.

Tires are Kumho Ecsta MX 235/45 and 255/45 on 17x7 and 17x8 wheels. The wheels are way too small, and the tires are about as wide as you can go on them, which means there's a lot of lateral movement in the sidewalls... You can really feel the rear end move laterally with some un-smooth driving on a sustained corner, and it's all in the tires because my rear axle is located with solid rod-ends at all 8 points.

The Ecsta MXs are great when hot, but have very little grip on a cool day.
Hey Derek,

I can't remember if you're running a PH bar? I'm considering it myself. Just curious to hear your thoughts about a PH bar setup. I'm going with polys on all 8 links except for the top two on the rear end with new tubulars arms. I really want there to be no lateral movement except for in the tires :). Sounds like you're close to getting there.

For positive lateral axle location a PHB cannot be beat. It has the least movement points and thus the fewest places for free play to appear (all movement points have some free play).

A Watts linkage is theoretically superior as the RCH does not move as it does with a PHB.

But given a long PHB and the amount of effective suspension articulation the differences are very minimal and more than offset by the simplicity.

You can read a whole bunch of deep tech on PHBs and RCH in a thread Derek and Marcus and I discussed this topic a while back: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149849

Ok... so it was *quite* a while back :D I find the thread title humorous now: Panhard bar basics! Should have been given more of an upper division class number title methinks :thumbsup: