I am planning on adding a "Ford" remote starter "solenoid" to my Chevelle. I will be extending the Purple starter wire, but I wasn't sure what size wire I should use.

Do I need to stay with 12 ga or can I step down to 14 guage?

To avoid future confusion, I am going to use "Purple" wire to extend the harness, but I have found 50ft of 12 Ga and 100 ft of 14 guage for about the same price...

Thanks

If you mean to use either wire for the signal that turns the solenoid on and off then either is fine. They don't draw much current, 5 amps or so.

Ron

Thanks Ron...

Yeah, I figured it shouldn't be pulling alot of amps, since the actual solenoid would now be triggered by the main starter cable. I seem to recall Fords having a very small wire...

What kind of starter are you using? Some mini starters don't like the Ford solinoid as the starter will crank a second longer after key is released. There were some posts on this a while back.

What kind of starter are you using? Some mini starters don't like the Ford solinoid as the starter will crank a second longer after key is released. There were some posts on this a while back.

Thanks...

I found this thread which talked about it, and explained the reasons and some solutions...

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235860


I was originally just going to use the "Ford" relay, because that seemed to be the cure to the issue (the solenoid not engaging when hot),

But I had some people suggest a new starter (and I did have those 'cold" start issues too)...

I am honestly looking at a Summit mini-starter. the stock starter does NOT have a problem turning over the motor, but perhaps the smaller size will provide more header clearance and therefore a cooler starter...

I am now debating on just keeping the Ford relay, but using it to just power the solenoid, rather than rely on the amperage coming through the gnition switch and the NS switch... I am thinking more amps to the solenoid should cure the hot start issue...

If the starter is really hot nothing can make it work correctly. A heat shield may be a better answer.

There are timing issues with using an external solenoid. It is better to bypass the contact switch on the starter solenoid and have the external solenoid drive the starter motor directly.

The starter solenoid must engage first (so that the starter gear is engaged with the flywheel ring) then the external solenoid must turn on and switch power to the starter motor. Releasing the key then disengages both the starter solenoid and the external solenoid at the same time.

Fairly tricky to set up.

Ron

If the starter is really hot nothing can make it work correctly. A heat shield may be a better answer.

There are timing issues with using an external solenoid. It is better to bypass the contact switch on the starter solenoid and have the external solenoid drive the starter motor directly.

The starter solenoid must engage first (so that the starter gear is engaged with the flywheel ring) then the external solenoid must turn on and switch power to the starter motor. Releasing the key then disengages both the starter solenoid and the external solenoid at the same time.
Fairly tricky to set up.

Ron

??? I'm a little confused? :confused:

The factory starter setup has power to the solenoid (main lug) at all times, but when the solenoid/Bendix actuates the plunger engaging the pinion, it also energizes the starter motor. So there is always power to the main lug, and just power at the S terminal during cranking...

Why would it work any differently with the Ford relay?

With the Ford relay, the battery cable would also be energized once the key is turned and the solenoid was still engaging, but it works that way anyway? As soon as the key is turned off, there is still power to the solenoid, but because the solenoid is not energized, the starter doesn't receive power, correct?

The only difference I see, is that the 'signal' from the ignition key no longer uses the Purple wire, but now uses the main battery cable... that and the main cable is dead unless the key is turned to "start"...


As for the starter being really hot, thats not really the case... I think the solenoid is hot, or there is too much resistance in the Purple wire (It has been spliced at one time)...

IF the starter itself was too hot, the solenoid would still engage and complete the circuit to the motor, and therefore the light should really dim as all that amperage is trying to spin the starter... BUT, thats not happening here... When HOT, the starter makes NO noise at all, and no noticible draw on the system (based on the dome light, etc)... So the solenoid is not engaging and therefore its NOT completing the circuit to the starter motor, no noise, no big amp draw, etc...

So the idea behind the Ford solenoid was to push more amperage to the solenoid, more than the Purple wire/Neutral switch?ignition switch can provide... Basically using the same large cable to provide amperage to actuate the solenoid and starter...


Maybe the FORD solenoid is just a crutch, perhaps I just need a new solenoid... And this is only a recent problem... In 2+ years, this ONLY occurred twice, and both in the last month or so (only driven it 3-4 times during that period)... So its not an on going HoT starter problem...

Even at the West Coast Chevelle Gathering, where I raced the car 4 times in about 30 minutes (but turned off almost every time for a few minutes), I didn't have the problem...



I do have the second problem (unrelated to the first, pretty sure), where the starter will make a loud "click" but NOT turn the motor at all... This occurs even when dead cold, so not heat related. Sounds like a dead spot on the armature, and is more of an inconvenience, as I might have to turn the key 2 or 3 times to start the car...

The Ford solenoid bypasses all the old bad connections between the battery and the original solenoid.
I fixes the symptom rather than the cause but a lot of people use them.

??? I'm a little confused? :confused:

The factory starter setup has power to the solenoid (main lug) at all times, but when the solenoid/Bendix actuates the plunger engaging the pinion, it also energizes the starter motor. So there is always power to the main lug, and just power at the S terminal during cranking...

Why would it work any differently with the Ford relay?

With the Ford relay, the battery cable would also be energized once the key is turned and the solenoid was still engaging, but it works that way anyway? As soon as the key is turned off, there is still power to the solenoid, but because the solenoid is not energized, the starter doesn't receive power, correct?

The only difference I see, is that the 'signal' from the ignition key no longer uses the Purple wire, but now uses the main battery cable... that and the main cable is dead unless the key is turned to "start"...


As for the starter being really hot, thats not really the case... I think the solenoid is hot, or there is too much resistance in the Purple wire (It has been spliced at one time)...

IF the starter itself was too hot, the solenoid would still engage and complete the circuit to the motor, and therefore the light should really dim as all that amperage is trying to spin the starter... BUT, thats not happening here... When HOT, the starter makes NO noise at all, and no noticible draw on the system (based on the dome light, etc)... So the solenoid is not engaging and therefore its NOT completing the circuit to the starter motor, no noise, no big amp draw, etc...

ahh so the switch (contactor) assembly in the solenoid may be getting pitted (high resistance).

So the idea behind the Ford solenoid was to push more amperage to the solenoid, more than the Purple wire/Neutral switch?ignition switch can provide... Basically using the same large cable to provide amperage to actuate the solenoid and starter...


Maybe the FORD solenoid is just a crutch, perhaps I just need a new solenoid... And this is only a recent problem... In 2+ years, this ONLY occurred twice, and both in the last month or so (only driven it 3-4 times during that period)... So its not an on going HoT starter problem...

Even at the West Coast Chevelle Gathering, where I raced the car 4 times in about 30 minutes (but turned off almost every time for a few minutes), I didn't have the problem...

(Yea, I remember that; a fun day)


I do have the second problem (unrelated to the first, pretty sure), where the starter will make a loud "click" but NOT turn the motor at all... This occurs even when dead cold, so not heat related. Sounds like a dead spot on the armature, and is more of an inconvenience, as I might have to turn the key 2 or 3 times to start the car...

It all points to a bad connection in the main power path. The click means the solenoid is engaging but the starter won't turn, so either the motor itself has a bad commutator section or the more likely thing is that the starter solenoid has bad contacts.

Dean's right, external solenoid is often used a a crutch.

Ron

Okay, so does anybody know of a good Heavy Duty GM-style solenoid? Looking around, I haven't seen anything that seems any better than the next...

And Should i increase the cable guage to the solenoid (replace the Purple wire)? Will it help if I only splice a 2-3 foot section of wire into the harness?

Whats the stock guage? 10 or 12?


On the one-hand, i don't like to just throw money at the problem, without really finding/addressing the problem... but on the other hand, i don't have alot of free time to hunt down an issue (pull the starter and replace the solenoid, and then if it still occurs, i not only am stranded until it cools, but I have to pull the starter again and figure what else is going on...

Yes, the Ford relay is sort of a crutch, but then again, GM didn't design the starter/wiring for the extreme heat of headers running right by the starter...

:secret: What I've done--
bought a small push button switch at the parts store, ran a fused 14 ga wire from the BAT side of the fusebox to the switch. Ran another 14 ga wire from the switch to the S terminal on the solenoid. Hid the switch and wiring so it can't be seen (easily) since this is a Restored Original car :D

When the car won't start with the key, then I hit the push button and the extra little voltage push will engage the solenoid and crank it over. Hasn't failed in three years now.
I'd previously had the starter rebuilt, replaced two solenoids (NAPA and AC Delco brands), and used a heat shield, all to no avail. :(
BillL

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27392
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/gm-starter-solenoid-schematics-132278.html

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27392
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/gm-starter-solenoid-schematics-132278.html

That is a set up for use with a remote solenoid. If you do this without the remote the starter motor will just run all the time.

The link to the forum has an excellent wiring diagram to show how to hook up the remote solenoid.

Good post.

Ron

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/deancall/SOLENOID_FORD_REMOTE_ADD_ON.jpg

The Ford solenoid bypasses all the old bad connections between the battery and the original solenoid.
I fixes the symptom rather than the cause but a lot of people use them.

wow! Now there's an answer that gets right to the root of your problem. Fix your faulty wiring system and your problems will melt away.

GM spent zillions of dollars over the years figuring out the best way to make their cars start and now there is an "urban myth" that says IF you have headers AND your car won't start hot THEN add a F**D solenoid to the mess and "VIOLA" all your starting issues will be cured. Ya RIGHT!

Stick a product ( F**D solenoid ) that has inherent resistance into an otherwise intact wire and expect better performance. Hmmmm....

Hey! The F**D guys'll love ya tho. They love selling GM owners their solenoids.

One at a time. clean ALL of your connections. Replace your primary positive and negative battery cables with the very best wire you can buy. Solder the ends of the cables if you're really sincere. Get EVERY connection shiny clean. Ditch each and every crimp on connector and SOLDER your connectors on and you just may find that your car starts properly in spite of your hot headers. You might also consider "heat shrink" on the connectors too. Aids against accidental grounds. Don't forget your grounds. They are critically important too.

I did all that and my starter spins the engine frantically no matter how hot it gets. ( frantically may be a bit of an overstatement upon due reflection )

Course I've worked on a couple of cars in the past 50 years so I have some empirical experience on this subject too.