Disc Brake Upgrades--Jury Pool Statements [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Disc Brake Upgrades--Jury Pool Statements


Ike
Jul 11th, 03, 6:14 AM
Originally posted 07/11/2003, reposted here w/ updates/edits:

C'mon guys...add to this thread w/ more links/pics and info of finished upgrades. There CAN'T be 'that' many unfinished projects out there...but of course, mine's one of 'em for the time being... smile.gif

Ok, after a lot of research on my own, reading lots of old posts, and checking up on the latest swaps going around (read 'hours-and-hours’, I’m sharing my info, and my own ‘personal’ conclusions here for all.

Firstly, you have to give credit where credit is due, and those of you know who you are, :cool: and are asked to add to this thread to help make the mess of old posts a little easier to decipher for those wishing to make the change to discs. These guys have direct experience, whereas I’m still gaining it. Some of you are guilty of not posting follow-ups until someone asks for info—I’m guilty as well. Being the practical person I am, I’m sure others will appreciate the savings in time this thread should net for you all.

Best disc brake swap for going from drums to discs, and keeping your original wheels (must have 15”, not 14’s)(not to mention least expensive), “for the least $$”:
Follow Global West Suspension’s site for info for parts, and spring for the Upper Tubular A-arms (or don’t—see notes below) they’re worth the improved performance, and you WILL get added stopping power for that beast. You 'can' use OE upper a-arm...just search the threads for the problems/successes encountered.
See links for info at bottom…

Best disc brake swap for those performance-oriented drivers who want an edge, and still want to keep wheel size down to 15” (aftermarket rally’s may not fit—my 15x10’s didn’t):
Corvette C4 rotors on turned-down Camaro disc ‘hubs’, with the Suburban calipers. This is my choice, and will post results and pics after it’s done (late ’03). Thus far appears to be a ~$500 upgrade over my 11” F-body discs.
(I formerly believed the Camaro 1LE brakes to be a good choice, but my research on aluminum multi-piston calipers from the reman market came up w/ poor results.) Feel free to add your .02, but I would recommend (NOT the 1LE) the ‘Suburban caliper/Corvette C4 rotor combo’, primarily due to the added braking from the bigger 3 5/8” Piston (be sure to use the correct MC!!…see links below)
To add Rear Discs to this setup, add the Caddy rear discs for low cost rear discs, and you’re in business. Step up the rears to the ~’94 Camaro PBR calipers/brackets, and you’re one better.
See links at bottom…

FYI, ’88-92 1LE Camaro/Firebird uses the PBR aluminum dual-piston floating caliper. Same setup as some high-priced kits. DO NOT plan on buying these parts complete new from GM w/o wrecking yard spindles/brackets at the very least. Baer and others bought up all the GM caliper basket/brackets, and the LH caliper bracket is NO LONGER AVAILABLE…anywhere. Parts are hard to find. I found out Stainless Steel Brakes has replacement caliper baskets for the PBR's, but what a pain. GM no longer has the original for the LH. Calipers are rebuilt to real poor standards, and 'new' GM's are $300/ea.

Best disc brake swap 13" FDB for performance, but plan on buying 17” wheels: :D
C5 Corvette brake conversion. More involved, but you get 13” rotors. Jury’s still out on the proper MC for this combo, but the links below should provide good information. Rear mod info included as well below.
If you’ve done this swap, post or email me to update this information.

Best discs for the ‘open wallet’:
You all know the brand names. I’m not convinced that the $$ is worth performance over the C5 conversion, but they look trick, and have some damned nice features, if you do that kind of racing. Personally, I’m more impressed by the good looking job of GM components set up right than just what money can buy. However, I do not have a car going to shows w/ discs clearly visible through custom wheels. Bottom line for the performance-minded ‘show & shine’ mechanic…Who wants to wait a week for a part you can’t get at the local parts house the next day?

My conclusions:
I got the GW Uppers ‘and’ Lower A-arms, tall F-body spindles, single –piston Suburban iron caliper, picked up 2 ’82 Camaro rotors and turned them down for hubs and installed standard 7/16x ___” wheel studs, and 12” ’78 Corvette C3 directional rotors for the front. I’m using the Corvette power-4-wheel-disc MC (1 1/8"), w/ ‘no’ proportioning valve (‘T’-block only), and a Wilwood adjustable valve to dial in the rear bias.
Approx. $500 for disc hardware plus upper/lower a-arms got me there, fyi.

For the rears, :D I got the ’79 Cadillac Seville rear disc backing plates/mounting bracket/caliper (large backing plates/calipers) cores from a wrecking yard, ordered rebuilt calipers, new ’79 T/A rear rotors, and followed BC’s advice for cables (see post link below in ‘misc.’).
Approx. $700 for disc hardware converted the rear drums to discs, not including suspension upgrades, fyi.

In my quest for brakes, I also ended up with a set of 1LE rotors (new & hi-temp painted), and almost made the mistake of buying everything I needed for the 1LE brakes w/ the PBR calipers, but then I compared pricing, and found the setup above the best option. These 1LE rotors are for sale to someone who’s willing to pay me $50 over the new price for the PITA masking/painting. They have the metric wheel studs, but come with new lug nuts. That’s the way I was going to use ‘em…too much pita to convert to standard studs. On my ‘camaro’ hubs w/ the corvette rotors, I had to convert to standards, as I needed a longer stud, and the longer stud required drilling out the holes anyway, so I put in standards.


As I currently do not have a PB booster, and am looking at new ones, I’m considering going the ‘hydroboost’ route. This is the power-steering-assisted-braking unit off an ’86 1-ton Suburban, which replaces the booster. I’ll advise when I have more information.

I really want to try the C5 Corvette brakes, but I cannot justify the wheel expense at this time…something to consider.

If you wish to go STEP-BY-STEP, the best start is getting the GW or Hotchkis Tubular upper a-arm, and wrecking yard f-body spindle. This combo allows the most versatility in trying different combos of spindles/rotors/calipers on the front, as the ball joints fit up once you have the proper geometry upper arm/upper ball joint and lower ball joint for the disc brake spindle (see GW's site or search threads). You can collect the parts ‘as-you-go’ to meet budget and keep happy TWF graemlins/sad.gif (the ‘wife-factor’), or just order the kit from GW. Be aware that, IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket UPPER A-ARM, you’ll use LOTS of shims on a stock frame. Be aware also that IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket LOWER A-ARM, you must use a Camaro Lower Ball Joint, it’s body turned down to spec (see links). These ball joints can be purchased turned, but I do not have that research, as that is not what I did. FYI, I had my front lower a-arms box-welded, as well as the rear lowers, and cracks developed in ALL of ‘em under the stresses of hard driving. Hence, my long-term ‘planned’ purchase of the GW lower fronts and rears.

My post is not going into costs on every option on purpose. Lots of variables…just plan on spending up to $500 on good parts for the 1st and 2nd option NOT INCLUDING tubular upper a-arms (add ~$4-500). A used spindle off one of the donor cars (see link for applications) will run about $50. Stock Camaro calipers are cheap, around $25. I recall the front hoses ran about $20/side. ALL PARTS-HOUSE PARTS, of course, so everything is easy to acquire. Of course, plan on new bearings/races, wheel studs/lugs, spindle hardware kit and dust cover. Once you've made the initial investment in setting up for the F-body spindles, it gets cheaper every upgrade. You can save $$ to halve that if you find good/used rotors to turn, and rebuild your calipers. No matter what I did, I couldn’t get my $$ for the rear upgrade to 11” discs below $500, not including the core assy’s I got for all the hardware and brackets that don’t come with the new calipers and cables.
Hopefully there'll be posts in this thread of 'successful' combos to compare parts/results. I don’t have to tell many of you that you should never scrimp on ‘used’ parts on your brakes. My position is this: If you can afford a dollar improvement in ‘go-fast’ parts, you can justify a quarter in improved stopping…or don’t. Just don’t ask me to ‘co-pilot/navigate’

My parts Costs to-date (a/o 07/18/2003):
(*note: p/n’s are from their respective part’s houses, where noted, and NOT GM p/n’s)
FRONT DISC BRAKES
Spindles ’82 Cadillac Fleetwood (large .850 outer bearing) $50/pair (wrecking yard)
Rotors ’78 Corvette C3 directional, slotted PSL8210/PSR8210 $123.980/ea (Car Quest)
Hubs, ’82 Camaro front rotor $5.00/ea (wrecking yard)
Hot tank old grease $20.00
Machine shop labor to turn off rotor $________
Machine shop labor for sized holes f/ new wheel studs $________
Install new wheel studs $________
Calipers ’82 Suburban, ¾ ton, JD7 option, reman. 16-4122/16-4123 $46.03/ea (Car Quest)
*price is ‘loaded’, w/ pads, and new caliper hardware
*note—cores are worth $33—add that if you forgot to grab ‘em)
Wheel Studs 7/16”x ____”, x10 p/n ____________ $______ (Car Quest)
Lug Nuts 7/16” x10 $_______ (Car Quest)
Front Wheel Bearings ’82 Camaro app. $30/complete (Autozone)
Front Wheel Seal “ “ $4/set of 2 (Autozone)
Front Dust Covers “ “ $6/for 2 (Autozone)
Spindle Hardware kit (nut, washer, cotter pin) $2.99/set of 2 (Autozone)
Master Cylinder, 1 1/8” bore, ’76 Corvette app. 4-wheel DB NM1372 $88.99 (Autozone)
Front Brake Hoses ____________ app. P/n ___________ $_____
*uses ___mm Banjo Bolt, and matched copper gaskets each side, 2 bolts, 4 gaskets
Banjo Bolt, ___ mm, p/n _____ //(need 4x copper gaskets) $_____//$
Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00


Rear Disc Brakes
Rear Brakes, ’79 Cadillac Seville, used $175.00/set (wrecking yard)
*included backing plates, caliper cores (worth $30/ea), caliper hardware (did not come w/ new calipers), e-brake cable hardware (did not come w/ new e-brake cables), dust shield
Rotors, ’79 T/A (5x4 ¾” bolt pattern) new p/n 5560 or 55008 $59.99/ea (Autozone)
Calipers, rear, reman. ’79 T/A, P/n __________ $105.99/ea (Autozone)
Brake pads $______ (Car Quest)
Bolt, guide $6.99/set (Autozone)
Bolt, banjo p/n 82699 $4.99/ea (Napa)
Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00
Cable, drvr. P/n 3236 (old # 3095) ~31” sleeve/~41” cable (EIS) $26.73 (Car Quest/Napa)
Cable, pass. P/n 3219 ~37” sleeve/~64” cable (EIS) $26.45 (Car Quest/Napa)
Lokar E-brake cable kit, universal EC-80FU $87.99 (Summit)
*note: eliminates need for intermediate cable, and ‘rubbing’ cable system
(see notes on the Lokar cable installation for my rig…helpful info)


Extras!!
GW Upper Tubular A-arm kit, w/ offset shafts/hardware $429.00/set (Global West)
GW Lower Tubular A-arm kit, w/ Delalum bushings, $699.00/set (Global West)
spherical sway bar mounts
POR15 SemiGloss paint $89.00/gal.
POR15, hi-solid, hi-temp silver paint (f/ calipers/rotors) $25.00/pint
GW Lower Rear trailing arms, w/ spherical bearings, delulum bushings $329.00/set (Global West)
Edelbrock Upper Adjustable trailing arms $206.39 (Summit)
Edelbrock Anti-hop bars $119.95 (Summit)

Total? Hell, I don’t wanna know. I ‘do’ know that I didn’t blow 10G’s on depreciation the last 20 years J I will eventually figure out the percentage of funds I spent on upgrading my brakes versus speed upgrades, and see if it jives w/ notes earlier.


Most links are referencing Camaro brakes and Camaro sites--necessary evil given that all the upgrades are Camaro/TA/Corvette brakes, so don't raz me. Some info not applicable to A-bodies, but the general stuff on the sites below is good to have.

Links:
12” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Front
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/brakes.htm#Converting_Drums_to_Discs
Tubular Upper/Lower A-arms, Brake kits, Trailing arms:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20A-BODIES.htm#Front%20Tubular%20Control%20Arm%20Kits% 20for%20Disc%20Brake%20Conversions:
Spindle Applications for Yard search:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
12" C3 Corvette Rotor, Suburban Iron Calipers
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/CBB%20Construction.html
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004691


11” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Rear
http://www.usol.com/~okfoz/modification/brakes.htm
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/RearDiscBrakes.html
http://www.buickperformance.com/reardisc.htm
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/Rear%20Brakes.html


12” 1LE Aluminum Dual Piston Front
http://home.cfl.rr.com/shuhy/brakes.htm
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/brakes2.shtml

12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/12_corvette_brakes_on_fgen.htm
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/brakes/kvr_install/index.shtml
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear

12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=205049&page=10
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear

13” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/Brakes.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~kiszka/C5_brake_upgrade.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~smckitt/brakes.htm


12” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear
Hydro-boost:
http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html

Misc. links f/ info:
http://diynet.com/DIY/article/0,2058,8466,00.html
http://www.transamgta.com/1LE/
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003058 Thanks Bill, Joe, & Roy) scroll down to see BC’s post on e-brakes cable p/n’s, which are noted in my list above.


Update 07/11/2003: MUST READ paper on Brake Systems:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes9_index.htm

Update 07/11/2003:
Info on Master Cylinders:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/28.html
http://www.mpbrakes.com/MASTERS.htm
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes4_index.htm
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003077
Pushrod pics (thanks Joe aka 72SSAbody)
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/MyPushrod.JPG Short
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/DeepPushrodHole.JPG Long


Update 07/11/2003: Good info on tools and 'project' (ignore the F100 references)
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/plumbingbrakes/plumbingdiscbrakes.html

I'll post my own 'list' of parts and frustrations when things get finalized. My rig's getting frame off resto and won't be mobile for a few months minimum.

Fyi, this post will be continously updated as more info/links/progress comes along...so check back for dated updates as they're edited. I personally have wasted too much time on the computer searching threads and reading repeating questions and answers. Help out, guys. Make this thread the 'bible' to disc installations graemlins/beers.gif

pmullaly
Jul 11th, 03, 10:42 AM
Great research smile.gif
I'll copy that to my hards drive Thanks graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Enganeer
Jul 11th, 03, 10:56 AM
Great links! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I will be working on a c4 front and rear discs to replace my fabulous factory 4 manual drum setup. Will add some more pages for my reference. Thanks

1966_L78
Jul 11th, 03, 1:15 PM
someday i will actually began my swaps... This will be good info to have...

I already swapped disc from a 1972 Chevelle onto my 66 (did this years ago), so I am not in as much of a hurry...

Thanks...

Clint44
Jul 11th, 03, 1:53 PM
Up to $1000 on the the upgrades including the Global West tubular upper and lower a-arms??
The a-arms cost quite a bit more than that,by themselves.
I hope no one takes offense but I never could understand why so many people spend big bucks on top of the line engine and suspension parts,then install brake parts from a junkyard. Why not buy the best brakes you can afford since they are the most important components in the whole car?
No flames as I'm just contributing to the discussion.
Excellent research,Ike.

Ike
Jul 11th, 03, 2:21 PM
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20A-BODIES.htm#Front%20Tubular%20Control%20Arm%20Kits% 20for%20Disc%20Brake%20Conversions:

$420.00 GW basic Upper A-arm kit. Besides brake/spindle parts (costs vary), other expense is lower ball joint, which is available turned, or can be turned, to fit the F-body spindle.

I personally spent the $895.00 ten years ago on the GW 11" disc brake/tall spindle negative roll kit, used Polygraphite bushings, and bought the Upper a-arms at the same time...I could have gotten WAY under $1000 total if I took the time to go get yarded parts, and called in favors for the miscellaneous. I just had the $$ from another vehicle sale to buy the kit. Knowing what I know now, I'd never do that for a '1st stage' 11" brake install, unless I didn't have the time to go parts hunting, or couldn't find the 12" iron or 12" 1LE parts. The $1000 figure is realistic for those going from drums to discs for the first time, with the biggest one-time expense being the a-arms, if the brake items and ball joint are bought separately as the budget allows.

fyi, I'm thrilled with the handling of the 'negative roll kit' of the GW upper arms and tall spindles...I just did all this research to determine which was the best 'next step' in brakes, and I decided for me (can't justify wheels yet) that the 12" iron calipers was the logical step. I have the GW lower a-arms on the shelf for the reassembly (my lowers cracked all to hell following boxing)...as I posted earlier, I'll keep aprised as things eventually go back together, and post costs of the 12" 'upgrade' over the 11" when I've tallyed the totals.

My .02

Update 07/11:
Just thought I'd share the fact that the 11" disc swap I first did 10 years ago made ALL the difference in the world, compared to the stock drums I had before. However, lacking information, I chose the wrong MC, as I didn't have the info posted above in the MC links. Stopping was improved, but I had to become a power lifter to really take advantage of the discs (ie, lesson learned). Once you understand braking hydraulics, it becomes elementary.

Also, in searching threads, I've seen posts of DIY disc swaps to the rear w/ front calipers, and forgoing e-brakes all-together due to the 'hassle'.
Could I please hassle those of you w/o any e-brakes at all to put a large, bright yellow, 'smily-face' sticker in your windshield so 'we' know to get out of the way??? smile.gif
E-brake is not there to hold the car stopped in park...it's there IN CASE SOMETHING FAILS!!
(that 'Murphy' thing...you know?)
Safety 1st!
I'll post links when I find a good one of the Pinion e-brake. There's a bad link in the past threads for it. Anybody have a good one?

BC
Jul 11th, 03, 4:17 PM
Ike,
Not sure what I could possibly add to that already very complete summary of brake conversion options and info!! Great job!!

I have no problem at all if anyone wants to email me or ask about some of my trials and such in the quest for better brakes, but pretty much everything I could tell anyone has already been posted at one time or another. To summarize, my 71 SS has the B-body spindles, GW upper arms, stock lowers, home-made hubs and 12" Corvette rotors wrapped by the Suburban calipers. For the rears, I have a rear disk setup off a '77 Fleetwood that uses the large backing plates and large calipers. I also run everything in manual mode via a '68 Corvette POWER brake MC and simply have an adjustable prop valve in the rear line. Pedal feel for me is much easier than 'standard' manual brakes and stopping power is better than ever! And yes, I did have power disks before these changes!

Anyway, great posting and great work on the links!

Bill C.

Ike
Jul 11th, 03, 5:15 PM
Oh, btw, I'll have complete spindles minus calipers for the 11" disc brake swap (GW's kit) available for sale. I machined the bottom spindle to accept the stock Chevelle ball joint. Will use inexpensive '75 Monte Carlo application iron single piston caliper (that's just the app. I have stuck in my mind, as I used to have Monte to drive while my '69 was apart, and the brakes were the same).
I'll figure out a price after I get them off later this summer. All one would need is a set of tubular aftermarket a-arms to make this go together nicely. Bear in mind that there is approx. 1" drop in front ride height w/ the switch to tall spindles. (fyi...IMHO, stock replacement springs are CRAP! Though that's not for this thread. Go Hotchkis)
Drop me an email later this summer if anyone's interested...otherwise, I'll post when they're available.