The last independent station down here stopped selling non E10 fuel :mad:. My car runs like crap with 92 octane E10. I had to pull a couple of degrees of timing out so it does not ping.

Any ideas folks :confused:

TOG

I just ate 6 tacos, I got a couple idea's.:p

Thanks for the help Dave :sad:.

TOG

Race Gas, Less Compression, or longer Duration on the cam? Do you have iron or aluminum heads?


Some 110 Low-Lead from your friendly local airstrip might do the trick too.:D

The fuel at the pump in this country sucks, your going to have to mix it with some av gas for the track probably and just settle with less street performance.

Race Gas, Less Compression, or longer Duration on the cam? Do you have iron or aluminum heads?


Some 110 Low-Lead from your friendly local airstrip might do the trick too.:D

Be careful getting aviation fuel....5 or 6 gallon jugs would be the best idea for that. It is illegal to put aviation fuel in an automobile that pays road taxes on fuel. Driving your car up to the pump during the daytime would definitely be a bad idea.....at night with a credit card self-serve paying option it wouldn't be as bad but people are still watching. They usually ask for an aircraft tail number or at least a pilot's license if someone confronts you.

Something else that *might*(read that as doing the reasearch yourself) help is buying some rubbing alcohol or similar alcohol that's cheap and plentiful and put it in the tank.....clean burning, runs cool and probably would help deter the pinging. Ask me how many times Tracy's done that for the emissions test:yes:......they give you a funny look when your emissions are near zero with 1/8 of a tank and 2 gallons of rubbing alcohol are in it. It definitely worked for that application.

Greg, I looked at your engine pic I took and it looks like you're using an HEI....another option would be to have an ignition retard box. Definitely more money but easily adjustable with the dial setup at arms reach.

A longer duration cam might do the trick....

Greg already has aluminum heads.

TOG,

That ZZ4 is billed as a street engine! Not running full adv on pump92 sucks!
Ya may wanna try different adv spring combos.....

I was a little surprised at how much a difference E10 makes :sad:. I have had to pull two full degrees of timing out to get it to stop pinging. I can feel the difference in acceleration :(.

The worst part is if the fuel phases (separates) there are a whole host of problems that will come with that on our older motors (pure Ethanol is not friendly).

TOG

Maybe its time for a Holley with some billet e85 blocks. They sell e85 at the shell on pacific ave. across from Alberston's. I've been watching it for over a year.

Just a little light reading for you folks. Testing has proven that there is a 3% loss in performance when using E10 :(.


The situation is different for gasoline oxygenated with 10 vol % ethanol. The gasoline-alcohol

blend can dissolve more water (6000–7000 ppm at 21°
C/70°F).When this blend is cooled, both
the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble. Contacting the blend with more water also
draws ethanol from the blend. The result, in both cases, is two layers of liquid: an upper ethanoldeficient
gasoline layer and a lower ethanol-rich (up to 75% ethanol) water layer. The process
is called

phase separation and it occurs because ethanol is completely soluble in water but only
marginally soluble in hydrocarbons. After phase separation, the gasoline layer will have a lower
octane number and may knock in an engine. The fuel also is less volatile. The engine will not
run on the water/ethanol layer. As the concentration of ethanol is decreased, the aromatics
content of the gasoline is decreased, and as temperature is decreased, less water is required to
cause a phase separation.
The potential for phase separation requires that gasoline oxygenated with ethanol not be
exposed to water during its distribution or use in a vehicle. Because of this requirement, gasoline
oxygenated with ethanol is not transported in pipelines, which sometimes contain water. Rather,
the ethanol is added to tanker trucks at the terminal immediately before delivery to the service
station. Housekeeping at the service station is very important to prevent water contamination.
This water sensitivity also means that extra care should be taken when gasoline oxygenated with
ethanol is used as a fuel for boat engines. Ethanol blends are hygroscopic (absorb moister from
the air) and in time can phase separate during storage if the tank is vented to the atmosphere
and is subject to breathing as a result of temperature changes.
Material Compatibility

Some fuel system metal components will rust or corrode in the presence
of water or acidic compounds. The additional water dissolved in oxygenated gasolines does not
cause rusting or corrosion, but water from the phase separation of gasoline oxygenated with
ethanol will, given time.
51
Chapter 4
Oxygenated Gasoline
Oxygenates can swell and soften natural and some synthetic rubbers (elastomers). Oxygenated
gasolines affect elastomers less, the extent of which also depends on the hydrocarbon chemistry
of the gasoline, particularly the aromatics content. The effect is of potential concern because
fuel systems contain elastomers in hoses, connectors (“

O” rings), valves and diaphragms. The
elastomeric materials used in today’s vehicles in the

U.S. have been selected to be compatible
with oxygenated gasolines. Owner’s manuals approve the use of gasoline oxygenated with
10 vol % ethanol or 15 vol %

MTBE. (The compatibility of the other ethers is the same as
that of

MTBE.)
Automobile manufacturers upgraded their fuel system elastomers at different times. Elastomers
in pre-1975

U.S. vehicles may be sensitive to oxygenated and high-aromatics gasolines. Elastomers in
1975 to 1980 vehicles were upgraded but not to the same extent as in later models.

2 Elastomer
compatibility in other parts of the world may not be the same as in the

U.S.
ChevronTexaco’s experience is that there is not a significant compatibility problem between
oxygenated gasolines and elastomers in older

U.S. cars. There was not an increase in problems
when oxygenated gasoline was introduced in 39 metropolitan areas in the winter of 1992. This
held true for the Western states, which tend to have more older cars in their vehicle populations
and for areas where different oxygenates were used (

MTBE throughout California; ethanol in
Portland, Oregon and Seattle/Tacoma,Washington.
Fuel Economy

The effect of oxygenated gasoline on fuel economy is discussed on page 9.
Permeability

In this phenomenon, gasoline components diffuse through elastomeric hoses and
seals and through plastic fuel tank surfaces and contribute to evaporative emissions. There is
concern that the addition of ethanol to gasoline results in ethanol permeating non-metal fuel
system components and carrying additional hydrocarbons with it.

What about getting a case of Kemco ?

if you get confronted at an airport tell them you just overhauled a lycoming 0-360 in your garage and you need some avgas for the test stand!!! I cant see anyone getting to upset about it if you are just putting it in a gas can but I wouldn't put it directly in your car!

Just get a couple 5 gal just and go to the airport, AV gas lasts much longer than pump gas. If confronted just say its for ur friends ultra light and thats all u know. Oh yeah and somehow ur 4 digit race number should do the trick.:thumbsup:

av gas smells alot better!!!!

Aviation fuel also doesn't leave a film or any smell after it evaporates off your hands/clothes/etc. Much nicer fuel but quite a bit more expensive.....some places sell 100LL(light blue in color) and 100/130(pink I think), there's even a 96 or 97 at some airports. I have an old AFD(Airport Flight Directory)....I can look up Olympia Airport and see what they sell or used to sell when mine was in print.

Airport policies and airport personnel vary in how they handle things.....try at your own risk is all I'm saying. They're a little more concerned with things and suspicious people than the normal John Q Public gas stations.....

If you absolutely have to use a fake tail number, all US aircraft tail numbers start with an 'N' for November.....remember to use call names(just like the military....Alpha, Beta, Charlie, etc.) for letters and if you use a '9' in your tail number sequence, the aviation community says 'Niner' instead of just nine. Just trying to help keep you out of trouble if you do the AvGas option.

Oh yeah, Ultralights are the nemesis of Helicopters:mad: No license, no radios, and they don't follow the rules usually either....or know them for that matter.

Split a barrel of race gas with a friend and mix it or its time for a long duration cam. I'm suprised how mine runs with 11:1 and pump gas with the duration I have with the cam.

With reports like this one, maybe I won't move back there:(

With reports like this one, maybe I won't move back there:(

I could be wrong (I have been know to be), but I thought oxygenated fuels were going to be mandatory everywhere :confused:. Its just that some states don't label them as such.

TOG

With all of those refineries in Texas and it being the state of Texas, E10 might not be mandatory there.

If you absolutely have to use a fake tail number, all US aircraft tail numbers start with an 'N' for November.....remember to use call names(just like the military....Alpha, Beta, Charlie, etc.) for letters and if you use a '9' in your tail number sequence, the aviation community says 'Niner' instead of just nine. Just trying to help keep you out of trouble if you do the AvGas option.

Boy, that brings me back to my flight training. (All two and half hours of seat time and only a little more ground school.)
:D

I could be wrong (I have been know to be), but I thought oxygenated fuels were going to be mandatory everywhere :confused:. Its just that some states don't label them as such.

TOG

There are no tree huggers in Texas(may be the lack of trees in south Texas;)). We also don't have the temps that drive other states to use the oxygenated fuel. I can still buy good 93 octane and race gas is readily available.

They may very well have changed the laws, I really don't keep up with gas so much as I don't buy it all that much.

So what was your timing before and now? What compression are you running?

I run straight 92,, even at the track. I have timing locked at 38 and run real close to 11.1 compression with a dynamic of 10.1 and I don't have a problem with detonation.

Im sure you can tune it to run fine if you just use the Kemco additive.

Kevin where are you getting your fuel? Is it E10?
My setup will run fine on E10. Just not as good as it was :( on non-oxygenated fuel. The whole point to the thread was, how surprised I was at how big the difference there is between the two fuels :yes:.

TOG

You know TOG, I never had any problem with E10 stuff until you mentioned it. I filled up TW last night, and drove her to work this morning and she was bitching a little bit at higher rpm. With the same exact gas that I'd filled her up with the previous time.

It's all your fault :yes: I'm bringing a bottle of Kemco to the track tomorrow though. Still left over from the Bug/Kokanee trade with John :D

I filled up with E10 today from Chevron. I have nothing to compare it with obviously but it runs fine from what I can tell. I would have loved to be able to run it from yesteryears' 98 Octane leaded gas to compare but I'll have to try race gas someday to somewhat simulate that.

Your perception of your engine's performance may be quite a bit more fine tuned than those of us just getting used to ours. I don't even know if I could tell the difference....is it kind of like turning the A/C on in your car/truck?

The whole point to the thread was,
TOG

My God, a thread with a point:eek:

Guess we're not used to that:)

Kevin where are you getting your fuel? Is it E10?
My setup will run fine on E10. Just not as good as it was :( on non-oxygenated fuel. The whole point to the thread was, how surprised I was at how big the difference there is between the two fuels :yes:.

TOG

I have run shell, chevron and 76. I dont notice a difference between the three at all.

Greg,
Dont know what brand you are using, but I just have not heard of any problems with the E10 and that is all we have had for a couple of years now. Most of ours is still 93 but I can't imagine 1 point making that much difference unless the combination is right on the ragged edge anyway.

Maybe it was just bad gas! It is more common than you think!!

Maybe it was just bad gas! It is more common than you think!!

DAVE has that problem all the time from those tacos......:yes:

Greg,
Dont know what brand you are using, but I just have not heard of any problems with the E10 and that is all we have had for a couple of years now. Most of ours is still 93 but I can't imagine 1 point making that much difference unless the combination is right on the ragged edge anyway
I was running a very aggressive timing curve. My car runs great after a few adjustment, I have not had to use E10 until now and found the difference to be surprising. I like the way Colbalt put it is it kind of like turning the A/C on in your car.

TOG