All of us TC Members see sway bar prices that vary all over the place.

Hotchkis 1 3/8" Hollow Front, 1" Solid Rear, with all hardware goes for around $300.00-$350.00 (Powdercoated with all hardware?????)

OPG 1 1/4" Solid (Or is it hollow?????) Front, 1" Solid Rear with all hardware goes for around $200.00 (No Powdercoat????? Powdercoat?????).

So, if the OPG set is not powdercoated, is the difference in prices due to the powdercoating or lack of powdercoating?????

Or, is the Hotchkis set (1/8" larger front), absolutely "SUPERIOR" to everything else?????

OR?????

Your "Tried And True" opinions are needed here.

Thanks for any and all info (And yes, our PST 1 1/8" Front Sway Bar w/Poly Bushings And All Hardware Is Now Available For Sale=See Classifieds).

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/beers.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

What's your suspension setup? Tall or stock spindle? That will influence your selection.

With a tall spindle setup, anything over 1 1/8 front will yield diminishing returns. The car needs a little bit of body roll for the negative camber curve of a tall spindle setup to plant the outside tire. The less roll you have, the less negative camber gain and therefore less traction you will have. It's a balancing act though, as too much roll will also negatively affect the handling. I have better turn in and traction with a 1 1/8" front bar than a 1 1/4" front bar, and the ride is a little better as well. As far as a rear bar with a tall spindle setup, I've had problems running ANY bar in the rear. I don't run one anymore. Even a stock 7/8" bar out back would make my car snap-oversteer on corner exits. The car handles much more neutral with no rear bar.

If you are running stock spindles up front, my trials and errors seemed to point to a 1 1/4" front and 7/8" rear bar combo was just about ideal. When I was still running stock spindles I tried a 1", 1 1/8", and 1 1/4" front bar in combination with a 7/8" and 1" rear bar. The 1 1/4" front and 7/8" rear bar combo worked the best for me.

A 1 3/8 front bar is serious overkill and you're risking pulling the bolts and brackets right out of the frame because of all the additional stresses. I tried a 1" rear bar on my car as well and wasn't happy with it; the rear end was far too "choppy" and unpredictable in turns. as A bump on one rear tire would upset the balance of the other tire and you would lose traction; the 1" bar was just too stiff to allow a wheel a reasonable amount of movement without affecting the opposite side. The 7/8" bar still exhibited this behavior but it took a much larger bump on one side to "unsettle" the whole rear end, and when it finally would unsettle, it would be a much more progressive loss of traction compared to the 1" bar which would be holding great one moment, then you'd hit a bump and the rear end would try to snap around in an instant. The 7/8" bar was more forgiving and would give you a little longer to "gather it up" before you'd wind up facing the way you came. graemlins/clonk.gif

Troy

Actually, we're more interested in comparing the "Quality" of the two (Price difference doesn't really matter at this point). Hotchkis much "Beefier" and just plain built better with better materials?????

Having said that, since this car will have to go in a straight line for 1.4 miles (El Mirage) and then 2 and 5 miles (Bonneville), we don't want it to turn on a dime (Ouch!). After we get this out of our system, we'll drive it on the highway, and will probably change the front/rear sway bars.

It currently has PST Poly bushings and body bushings on everything, S-10 2" Dropped Superior Spindle Front Disc Brake Conversion (See posts), BMR Racing Rear Control Arms w/Adj. Uppers, Hotchkis Rear Control Arm Braces, special suspension/motor mount/etc. hardware on the entire car, reinforced front lower control arms.

We have to weigh the car plus give AFCO the weight at each wheel for the fully adjustable (4") coil-over shocks front and rear (This includes the driver, then you give them the weight at each wheel with weights at all four corners), Art Morrison 12/14 Point Rollcage, Kirkey Pro-Street Racing Seats (Yes 2), Simpson 6 Point Racing Harness(s).

None of this is really complicated, it just seems to take forever! That's why it is called "THE MONEY PIT".

If you have followed our posts over the past couple of years, this was just going to be a Frame-Off (Beadblasted and Powdercoated Frame and all suspension parts) Pro Touring/Pro Street Project. 2 weeks before it was to go to the paint shop, "I" decided to do this (Judy didn't agree, but she's Ok with it now).

Anyway, you see why we asked the original question (?)

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Troy's advice is dead-on as usual. I made the mistake of installing a 1 3/8 front bar on the Chevelle and it's, well, interesting. But anyway, IMO, your intended straight-line use does beg the question "why"--I think you'll be happy with either the Hotchkis or PST bar(s) if you don't plan on turning! I would recommend a slow ratio steering gear as well...I have driven purpose built cars at 150mph+ speeds and you certainly do not want any twitchy response to steering input at those speeds.

I thought the Hotchkis front bar was hollow, so you may see some weight savings relative to the PST bar. As far as materials, well, they're both steel :D and I'd assume both are heat treated.... You could also hit up the salvage yard and snag a front bar from a 2nd-gen T/A or Z28 (1.25" or 1.125" diameter, respectively) and have THAT powder-coated if your primary concern is having it look nice.

Good luck--I think you definitely have a unique situation regarding what you want your chassis to do. Have you spoken with anyone else who runs a stock chassis in Silver State, etc, and see what they've done? I know Jeff Smith of Primedia ran the SS race with a Global-West-prepped '65 Chevelle and did well.

Troy .... can you elaborate on this
" A 1 3/8 front bar is serious overkill and you're risking pulling the bolts and brackets right out of the frame because of all the additional stresses.""

The 1 3/8 Hotchkiss bar is hollow so I felt it would compare approx to the stiffness of a 1/14 solid which you pointed out worked well with a 7/8 rear... or am i missing something here

If I install the 1 3/8 Hotchkiss bar on my 66 with stock spindles etc and factory 7/8 rear and factory maual steering box what downside/ 'Overkill" handling traits can I expect

Thanks for your help Bill

Bill,

Depending upon "how hollow" the Hotchkis bar is, it may be stiffer or less stiff than a solid 1.25" bar. You would have to ask Hotchkis for the specific spring rate of their bar, I would guess measured in pounds-force (measured at one of the end link points) per degree of twist.

Remember the torsional stiffness of a sway bar, or any bar for that matter, is proportional to the 4th power of the radius. A little goes a long way!

The hollow bar generally needs to be a little bigger than a solid bar due to more flex, but it does have a weight advantage. There are a lot of variables that affect the sway bar that you use on your car. If you have stock spring rates, rubber bushings and stock control arms, a 1 1/4" or 1 5/16" front bar and a 1" rear bar work well. If you have aftermarket rear control arms, they are stiffer, and flex less so a 7/8" bar usually works well. If you increase the spring rate, you will not require as much sway bar either, so you can drop down to a smaller bar as well. The OPG bars are solid bars which are powdercoated but they are a hot formed, heat treated bar so they will not be as pretty as the Hotchkis but are plenty strong.

The OPG bars will look more like an OEM bar due to the similarity of manufacturing methods. The hot formed bars are usually made of alloy steel which is heat treated after forming. The Hotchkis bars are cold bent so they are a a different material which will not collapse when the tube is bent. The cold bending does offer an advantage in appearance, but either one will work well. It just depends on what your priorities are.. weight, finish, or price.

Troy , Tony and David .. thats all good info thanks ...my front suspension is a new stock replacement rubber bushings and stock rate springs and spiral shocks ... thought by going Hotchkiss 1 3/8 would be OK

.... but still would like to know what ill effects you guys ran into with this bar ..... maybe i wont install


My rear suspension is all Metco adjustable control arms , with poly bushings, stock springs and QA1 adjustable shocks so retained stock 7/8 bar

I can't comment on the Hotchkis bar, as the 1 3/8" bar I tried was solid. It was HEAVY and very, very, VERY stiff compared to the 1 1/4 bar I soon replaced it with (taken from a mid '70's T/A at a junkyard).

As Tony said, the torsional stiffness of a bar with a circular cross section is proportional to the 4th power of the radius. Unless the Hotchkis bar has a VERY thin wall (which I doubt) a hollow 1 3/8" bar will be stiffer than a 1 1/4" bar, even a solid one. Without knowing the wall thickness and the exact material (I could take a guess here; Hotchkis simply says high carbon steel) any number crunching to derive torsional stiffness of the bars would be a guess.

Back to the original question, as far as quality goes... I run a GW front sway bar now which is a very nice looking piece (gold irridited). Very smooth, no real processing marks, and it's very thick at the end link attachment points. The 1 1 1/4 GM front bar I used to run didn't look nearly as good; the bar looked rough in a few spots, the end link attachment points were about half the thickness of my GW bar, but it never gave me any trouble even over 6 years of daily driving. The Hotchkis bars I've seen look good, as do the bars from PST and Herb Adams.

I don't think you can really go wrong with any of them.

Troy

Hellwig products also makes sway bars for the A-body. The OPG and the Hellwig bars are hot-formed heat treated bars that are similar in construction to the OEM bars. You will see processing marks but that does not mean they are bad - just a nature of the process. The bars are heated to red hot like a forging before they are formed then quenched in oil and heat treated. I know the Hellwig bars are made from 4140 alloy steel. You won't break one of these bars, and they have a lifetime warranty in case you do. Some of the gold colored bars are cold formed so they are not the same alloy as the hot formed bars. The 1 3/8 Hotchkis will behave about the same as a 1 5/16" solid but have less weight. From the bars i have seen, the hollow bars are about 3/16" to 1/4" wall tubing. I have Hellwig bars on my Chevelle and it really helped, but I have a stock suspension. If it were me I'd go for a solid hot formed bar over a solid cold formed bar due to the heat treat on the hot formed bar. If weight is an issue then tubular bars are a good option. In my case saving 5-7lbs of weight didn't justify $100 dollars extra.

We have been very fortunate to meet several local SCTA/BNI "LSR" racers over the past few months. This is a racing venue/sport that pays "ZERO" $$$s, and if you're lucky enough, you get a 200 MPH Time Slip and nothing else.

Some of the cars would suprise you. From the outside as you stand beside them, they look stock, and are very low. When you look at the suspension setups, they almost look stock. One example is the Doll/Fox/Christophersen '82 Z/28 Camaro. It has stock front suspension w/AC Delco Struts, and stock rear suspension w/AC Delco Heavy Duty Shocks, and Manual Steering. It runs in various classes, and has hit "234 MPH+ In A Virtually Stock Body".

A more radical example (Although it looks stock standing beside it and the suspension looks virtually stock), is the Lindsley's Leggitt '90 Pontiac Firebird (BIG MOTOR!!!!!). 333.784 MPH (And that is not a misprint!!!!!).

GOT YOUR ATTENTION!!!!!?????

Anyway, it appears that 1 3/8" or 1 1/4" Front, and 1" Rear are just about "Correct", after discussions with the local "LSR" guys.

We're even thinking specially machined front suspension cross shafts, and with the reinforced front lower control arms, and all of the special suspension hardware, none of the suspension will twist and break or (?)

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Just found a great article in CHP/December 1999.

They upgraded the brakes and suspension on a '69 El Camino and used Hotchkis 1 1/4" front and 1" rear sway bars.

Great article to read if you save them (We save the articles, not the entire magazine).

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

On my former 68 ElCamino w/468,I installed Hellwig 1 1/4" front & rear 1" sway bars. The car was close to neutral with just a little oversteer.
Hellwig bars are available from PST and are very reasonably priced. I paid less than $150/ea for them.

CLINT;

Thanks. It appears that 1-1/4" and 1" may end up being the way to go. Ours was 1-1/8" and 1".

By the way, the S-10 Superior Spindles 2" Dropped Front Disc Brake conversion went well, as we met a guy (Bobby) here in town at NAPA who really knows his stuff. Within minutes, he had the correct ball joints and outer tie rod ends figured out. Additionally, we received help from AFCO, as they offer more than just radiators. It ended up that the S-10 conversions are very popular in various types of racing, not just drag racing.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif