I'm converting my '67 327/powerglide to a 700r4 and am dealing with the TV cable.
First I bought a Bowtie Overdrive kit called the "TV made EZ System". Nice looking kit and great interaction with the staff. Only problem is...the adapter to my Rochester Quadrajet won't fit, and they don't make one that will. Oh well... at least the crossmenber & cooling lines look promising.
Just discovered Bowler Performance Transmissons kit called the "Bowler Tru Shift". It looks good too (in the add). It seems simpler with easier adjustment. I'll call tomorrow and see if it will fit my application and get more info.
Anybody have any experience with the Bowler kit?
What are the rest of you doing for the TV cable?

Paul S.

I would think there were later model GM cars with carbs and TV cables. Maybe the setup for the mid 80's cars?

TCI makes a bracket the mounts to the back of the carb.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TCI-376700/

Sonnax makes a TV cable corrector, I used it with my Holley 750 #80508-S, just add a stud:

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/Bowtie-Bry/TECH/DSC03294.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/Bowtie-Bry/TECH/AS2-02K.jpg

If I can jump in here. I am doing the exact same swap. I have everything installed but I have the universal TV cable (no lectures please). All directions say the the cable slider should be set as far toward the transmission as possible to preload the piston and that the slider will "ratchet" out to the proper position when forced to do so at WOT. This makes perfect sense except that the universal cable has an adjustable tear drop head that goes onto the carb with a cable clamp to set its position along the cable, so there is absolutely no reference point at all to set the length properly for the WOT slider "ratchet" adjustment.

Can I just pull the inner TV cable to the fully extended position at the same time as I have the car at WOT and lock down the tear drop connector for the proper fit at WOT? That would eliminate the "ratchet" out of the outer cable but I have no frame of reference as to where the tear drop connector should be set with the universal TV cable. I am wishing that I spent the extra money for the other kit.

Thanks
Chuck

Let me suggest using Bow Tie Overdrive's " TV Made Easy" kit. Might seem a bit pricey, but it's accurate and takes the wondering out of, .."did I get it right"?

Let me suggest using Bow Tie Overdrive's " TV Made Easy" kit. Might seem a bit pricey, but it's accurate and takes the wondering out of, .."did I get it right"?

I guess you missed the no lecture part of the thread below, LOL. I agree, but I also don't want to throw away $75.00. I'd like to make this work. It's in and it fits well. All I have to do is figure out the location of the tear drop connector and I will be satisfied. Unfortunately the vendor did not supply this info.

Any help is appreciated.
Chuck

I guess you missed the no lecture part of the thread below, LOL. I agree, but I also don't want to throw away $75.00. I'd like to make this work. It's in and it fits well. All I have to do is figure out the location of the tear drop connector and I will be satisfied. Unfortunately the vendor did not supply this info.

Any help is appreciated.
Chuck

My tranny shop said as long as the plunger is completely pulled out when your at WOT your good to go. So I had a buddy hold the pedal to the floor as I grabbed the cable pulled it as far as I could then pushed the tear drop up and tightened it down. They also supplied me with a spring that goes on the cable in front of the tear drop that helps the plunger return to the right position at idle. Mine has been working fine like that all year.

the lokar kit works great. my builder recommended it to start with. was kind of pricey but really is nice and purty to boot...

I have the tv made ez kit I have the bracket that mounts to the q-jet and I did have the plate that sit under the carb for the tv cable to sit in. I can get you a picture of the bracket that goes on the q-jet if you like.

My tranny shop said as long as the plunger is completely pulled out when your at WOT your good to go. So I had a buddy hold the pedal to the floor as I grabbed the cable pulled it as far as I could then pushed the tear drop up and tightened it down. They also supplied me with a spring that goes on the cable in front of the tear drop that helps the plunger return to the right position at idle. Mine has been working fine like that all year.

Perfect Mark! That what I wanted to know. I will call Doc at Monster today as well.

Thanks
Chuck

What type of oil goes in the 700r4 (Detron, type F, etc)?

I was told to start the car with no oil in the tranny and add 4 quarts while the motor is running with the tranny in park and then measure on the stick and add as needed. This seems strange to not add oil before starting the car and spinning the torque converter. The torque converter has a quart in it already.

Chuck

My tranny shop said as long as the plunger is completely pulled out when your at WOT your good to go.

I would talk to a trans shop that specializes in retrofits because there is much more to it than that...

The way Bowtie overdrive has you do it is by line psi.

I would talk to a trans shop that specializes in retrofits because there is much more to it than that...

My tranny shop does specialize in retrofits and they said the bottom line is the plunger needs to be all the out on WOT. As long as it is, it's doing what its supposed to. If you do a search and read some of the cable adjustment articles, that's pretty much what they explain.There is a more complicated explanation to it I guess, but that is the main concern. Then you do your adjustment at the other thing as far as the way it shifts. They also said one way to make sure its working properly is that it should have somewhat of a hard shift. It it floats into each gear to where you can barely feel the shifts, its not working. You can feel mine in every shift. So far its been working good.

QUOTE FROM CALIFORNIA TRANSMISSIONS....

"The proper adjustment of the TV cable is based on the TV plunger being fully depressed with the engine at wide-open throttle"

Thanks Mark.

CB

What type of oil goes in the 700r4 (Detron, type F, etc)?

I was told to start the car with no oil in the tranny and add 4 quarts while the motor is running with the tranny in park and then measure on the stick and add as needed. This seems strange to not add oil before starting the car and spinning the torque converter. The torque converter has a quart in it already.

Chuck

So, my question got lost in the flurry of answers on other subjects (see above). Can we try this again?

Thanks
Chuck

My tranny shop does specialize in retrofits and they said the bottom line is the plunger needs to be all the out on WOT. As long as it is, it's doing what its supposed to. If you do a search and read some of the cable adjustment articles, that's pretty much what they explain.There is a more complicated explanation to it I guess, but that is the main concern. Then you do your adjustment at the other thing as far as the way it shifts. They also said one way to make sure its working properly is that it should have somewhat of a hard shift. It it floats into each gear to where you can barely feel the shifts, its not working. You can feel mine in every shift. So far its been working good.

CORRECT TV cable adjustment, we'll just say that after rebuilding enough burnt up transmissions from improper TV cable GEOMETRY, I have a pretty good idea what CORRECT is. It's not JUST plunger fully depressed at WOT.

Do you understand the term "radius of an arc"?

If your radius isn't correct you have INCORRECT TV cable adjustment at every point of the TV position less than WOT, even if you have the plunger completely depressed at WOT.

The spring on the end of your TV cable is a band-aid for an improper TV system. Did GM ever use a spring on the end of the cable? I think their engineers know a thing or two about it.

What happens here is that even with WOT full TV pull, plunger depressed, if the geometry is wrong (and it is on your setup if you are using a spring to keep tension on it), then there is no TV pressure rise on throttle application from idle. If the radius of arc is too big, your idle TV is WAY off.

So you have ~85 psi idle TV pressure, that SHOULD instantly jump to ~150+ psi as you crack the throttle. This is CRITICAL to the life of the trans. More damage is caused off-idle than at WOT on a TV operated OD trans.
A monkey can get the WOT TV adjustment right, and even if not perfect, the cable is close enough to full pull that the actual TV valve (not the TV plunger you are looking at) is at full TV in the VB giving full pressure.
It's the initial acceleration that kills these transmissions. You have a stout V8 that's making ~200 lb/ft at idle, a torque converter that is multiplying torque 2-2.5 times at stall, and you crack the throttle, the input shaft of the trans is seeing 400-500 lb/ft of torque on a moderate combo. IF the clutches don't see instant pressure, 85-90 psi isn't going to keep them clamped, they slip, the steels get hot and warp or get hard spots, the frictions glaze, and it's over.
Go back and try again, better luck next time.

Instead of taking offense to FREE valuable information, you might take the time to find out who is giving it to you and what their background is. I don't need to "do a search and read some of the cable adjustment articles". I could write the articles. Not only do I fully understand the cable's operation and geometry but I understand the hydraulics it's operating better than most "transmission shops".

So, my question got lost in the flurry of answers on other subjects (see above). Can we try this again?

Thanks
Chuck

Dexron or tractor hydraulic fluid.
You can't go wrong with the OEM fluid usually.

Chuck,
To answer your other questions,

Universal cable. These are actually a decent piece. You rig up your bracket to hold it, in line with the TV stud on the throttle linkage. The Morse brackets that bolts under the carb like BTO uses is good, a stock kickdown cable bracket for a TH350 will work in many cases, etc.
You just need to hold the cable on the topside. It needs to be stable, not flexible, moving, bending, etc.

You adjust the cable housing to fit from the trans to this bracket, leaving some slack for movement. You tighten down the cable housing slider adjustment. Now your cable length is set.

You now can setup the rest.
Set the adjustment slider (in the topside bracket you have) in the middle of it's range.

Your TV cable stud on the carb or throttle body MUST have the proper geometry. The radius of arc is particularly important.
This is set by the distance the TV stud is from the centerline of the throttle shaft. It should be 1.093-1.125" by GM specs.
My preference is to be on the low side (shorter radius). So I aim for 1.100".
The reason to be on the low side is the shorter radius puts the plunger closer to WOT in the idle position, this is the "SAFE" direction to be, it ensures instant TV rise on throttle application.
You can back off the "proper WOT= plunger fully depressed" adjustment slightly if the part throttle is too aggressive.

See pic on this page for geometry at throttle linkage:
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html

Now you pull the cable (use pliers on a portion you are going to cut off later) tight, hold the carb at WOT (will need a helper or some wire to do this all).
Set the cable stop to hold the teardrop here.
Now you have "plunger fully depressed at WOT". You can cut off excess cable (leave a slight bit for now, just in case).

DO NOT fire the trans empty. Put 4 qts in it, then start the engine, top off the trans with it running.

Honestly,
Some of the stuff I am hearing in just this ONE post is scary and indicates some "professionals" who don't know what they are doing and a giving bad advice to customers.
The average customer/enthusiast just takes it as gospel and believes it because the "transmission guy/shop" told him so.

One last thing,

The "spring" BS on the end of the cable... <Jake shakes head in disgust>

Many carburetors we use on the older cars are setup by default for a TH350 kickdown cable. The radius is typically about 1.375" on these stock and aftermarket.

This additional 1/4" of radius means that even with the perfect WOT cable adjustment, you are off at idle approx that 3/16" of adjustment, so you need to take up 3/16" of slack before the TV pressure rises If everything was perfectly coordinated (it never is).

In reality, the TV plunger spring is probably a bit longer than it has to be , and this makes the 3/16" of "slack" not the full amount.

However, even 3/32" of slack in the TV upon application creates the "dead spot" on TV rise, and the car has already accelerated away from stop before the clutches see proper pressures.

This is how the OD transmissions get/got a bad reputation in many ways. The trans works fine for awhile, shifts good, even at light throttle, but everytime it pulls away from a stop sign, the clutches slip a bit due to lack of TV rise.

1500, 3000, 8000 miles later, the somewhat expensive 700-R4, 200-4R, AOD, etc bites the dust.
The car owner gets fed up after trying it once, twice, three times and it still eats itself every few months.
Car owner blames it on trans shop, trans shop blames it on car owner for improper TV adjustment. Both are correct, and both are to blame.

When I tear down a 700 or a 200 I can tell instantly by looking at the clutches if the TV cable was properly setup.
A burnt forward clutch pack and 2nd band, but other clutches OK, tells me the TV cable was not right.

The shop is to blame because they (typically) don't actually fully understand the TV cable system (and its been around so long it's obsolete already), and they tell the customer "It's OK as long as the TV cable (plunger) is fully tight at WOT".
Customer adjusts it this way (or even the shop) and 6 months later, it's back in the shop for warranty repair....

Then the hacks figure out a way to prevent it from happening, or happening as fast, by installing a spring on the TV cable to "take up slack" (that SHOULD NOT be there), and it solves their issue but the line rise pressure in the transmission is goofy, it get's instant pressure (who know's if it's enough, we're not going to put a gauge on it, we'll just install this $2 spring on the cable, it faster and easier, we don't even have to put it on the lift, get under it, or get dirty) that may or not be enough.


There are many variables to the hydraulics on the TV operated OD transmissions.
I change or modify the TV plunger spring, TV valve, TV limit, line bias, TV boost valves, pressure regulator/spring on every OD unit I build. Mostly in an effort to be SURE I get instant and adequate line rise and overall pressure.

Jake when I did my 700r4 for my Monte from BTO they had me set the tv cable by line psi. But they say you need 200psi of line pressure in idle, there is no talk of pulling the plunger to make sure its in WOT. I do know a few people who swap to a 700r4 and they followed what they say in the books open carb to full WOT pull tv cable and hook up the cable.

You won't have 200 psi at idle (unless you are using a TCI constant pressure VB or some type of full manual VB).
Anything over 90 psi at idle causes other issues.


If you have a vehicle that already came with a 700 or 200, and is using the stock carb or throttle body, and stock brackets, then you can just adjust to the WOT= plunger fully depressed method.

You can do this because the geometry is already correct, it's not a "retrofit" application. GM has done the engineering for you and you don't need any band-aids or cobbled together junk to make it work.

The BTO website has very good explanations of the TV system (or it used to anyway) and their kit is a very good kit. I think they have made it more complex unnnecessarily with their "adjustability" but they are able to do that because of their long TV plunger spring.

Many people THINK they are going to get out of it cheaper than the BTO kit, but by the time you buy the cable, carb corrector, bracket, etc you are almost into the setup as much as the BTO kit and IME all that stuff doesn't work right, namely the cable corrector has the wrong geometry.

I started out with the BTO tv system for a q-jet but I have since moved back to a Holley so I got the Holley setup http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/monte70car/carpics065.jpg. BTO is very nice to deal with the trans has been in the car for 6 years now and no issue with it. It has a 2500 stall with lock-up which stays in the off mode. I do have a temp gauge for the trans and it stay around 160 degree even with the car running 180 degrees. I run B&M trick shift fluid in my trans.

I installed a 700R4 in my 70 Vell Wagon in 2002. The same 700 is still in the wagon, ( it was behind a 396--454--and now a 468 SAME TRANNY )So I must have done it right. What I did was go to a junkyard and had a rule and took some measurements.
TWO of the most important measurements--- 1& 3/16" at 58 degrees and 4&5/8" My tranny shifts at 13-36-55.
Start with a center punch mark on the throttle linkage. WHERE? At the centerline of the throttle shaft," Pivot point "..... NEXT.... From this centerpunch mark, Measure 1 and 3/16" at 58 degrees ( to the rear ) and make a center punch mark. NEXT.... Look around your garage and find a 10/32 --8/32 machine screw and a couple of nuts, Insert the machine screw into your die grinder and walk to your bench grinder. With both grinders turned on grind the outside of the machine screw to match the Dia. of the factory " nail head looking piece that the TV cable attaches to. Then grind off the screwdriver slot so it looks like the factory nail head. NOW: That centerpunch mark that you made at 1 and 3/16" at 58 degrees, Drill a hole and mount your nailhead looking piece ( GEE using a machine screw you can adjust it in or out to suit your needs)
The bracket to mount the T.V. cable. I removed a 307 and a 350T from my 70 Chevelle wagon. The 350T had a bracket with a SQUARE hole it, Kick down or something, Anyhow NOTE: The square hole in 70 era tranny brackets, Is the same size hole that the 700 needs. I used my 70 bracket with the square hole and mounted it to the intake, Remove and intake bolt and bolted it down. Again measure... From the center line of the nail head piece to the front of the square hole for the TV cable is real close to 4& 5/8" C-to C.
Then I slid the TV cable into the square untill it just takes a bite, Attach the cable to the nailhead piece. Now sit in the car and push VERY slow on the pedal and LISTEN,,,, You will hear a clicking noise... This is the Cable Adjusting itself. YES I know ALL the tranny experts will say I am full of SHIP..... ALL I did was COPY the measurements from Chevy with a 700 in a junkyard.... With a little time and effort, Chances are you have all the STUFF in your garage to make the brackets needed.
P.S If you are using a Q-Jet ( I found this out about 2 years ago) Old Chevy PUs with a Q-Jet and a T-400 have a bracket mounted on the back of the carb with the carb bolts, That has the Square hole piece AND if you are using a Q-Jet,,, Bolt this FACTORY bracket on and the REAR mount for the TV cable is done and in the correct location... DAAAaa.
Yes, I know this was very long winded and I hope this may help someone. I drove my wagon to CB-09 for the third time this year. On the interstate with a 3:07 Rear gear. At 73 MPH. (in cruise) the 468 is turnning 1950 RPMs and the milage (interstate only,in town it sucks). The low side 19.04 the high side 19.07.
My I.Q. is two points below plant life,,, So if I can do this anyone can ... Good Luck
Bob ACES--AACA

....... Many people THINK they are going to get out of it cheaper than the BTO kit, but by the time you buy the cable, carb corrector, bracket, etc you are almost into the setup as much as the BTO kit and IME all that stuff doesn't work right, namely the cable corrector has the wrong geometry.

Jake, are you saying that the carb corrector for the Holly is not correct?

Chuck,
To answer your other questions, ......

Now you pull the cable (use pliers on a portion you are going to cut off later) tight, hold the carb at WOT (will need a helper or some wire to do this all).
Set the cable stop to hold the teardrop here.
Now you have "plunger fully depressed at WOT". You can cut off excess cable (leave a slight bit for now, just in case).

The shop is to blame because they (typically) don't actually fully understand the TV cable system (and its been around so long it's obsolete already), and they tell the customer "It's OK as long as the TV cable (plunger) is fully tight at WOT".

Jake you told me to go WOT, Pull the TV cable tight and lock down the tear drop connector. If that is the correct method I am confused by what you say above, which seems to be that that same procedure is wrong. Can you clarify in as few words as possible.

Thanks so much for the help.
Chuck

TWO of the most important measurements--- 1& 3/16" at 58 degrees and 4&5/8"

Measure 1 and 3/16" at 58 degrees ( to the rear ) and make a center punch mark. NEXT....

Look around your garage and find a 10/32 --8/32 machine screw and a couple of nuts, Insert the machine screw into your die grinder and walk to your bench grinder. With both grinders turned on grind the outside of the machine screw to match the Dia. of the factory " nail head looking piece that the TV cable attaches to. Then grind off the screwdriver slot so it looks like the factory nail head.

NOTE: The square hole in 70 era tranny brackets, Is the same size hole that the 700 needs. I used my 70 bracket with the square hole and mounted it to the intake,
Now sit in the car and push VERY slow on the pedal and LISTEN,,,, You will hear a clicking noise... This is the Cable Adjusting itself.



A few notes,
Your measurement of 1 3/16" is a bit too much radius of arc. The factory setups usually come out right at 1.125 which is an 1 1/8".
Yes I know we're talking 1/16" difference but it is important.
See the link I posted above, it shows the GM drawings for geometry.
However,
The TV plunger spring is USUALLY on the long side and will compensate for the 1/16".

OK,
The degrees to the rear of centerline is one of the least critical measurements, I eyeball this when making the throttle linkage for retrofits. The GM specs actually call for 23* to the rear. A bit more would be fine and may be beneficial to get a bit more of the TV travel up front.

You can buy the TV stud on the shelf at many parts stores for $5 or so. Easier than cobbling together something.
It's a Holley part.

Yes,
The TH350 kickdown brackets have the correct square hole. This is what I mentioned in a previous post, you can use the TH350 bracket with the universal cable.


NOTE:
Adjusting TV cable. Although the GM sepcs call for you to let the cable self adjust, I prefer not to do so.
With the carb at WOT (having a helper is good), you press the release on the cable adjuster, and pull it tight.

It doesn't place the strain on the cable, brackets, throttle linkage, etc that the self adjusting method does.

Jake, are you saying that the carb corrector for the Holly is not correct?





Jake you told me to go WOT, Pull the TV cable tight and lock down the tear drop connector. If that is the correct method I am confused by what you say above, which seems to be that that same procedure is wrong. Can you clarify in as few words as possible.

Thanks so much for the help.
Chuck


Chuck,
You are taking less than half of my explanation. Please read the entire thing.
Fully depressed TV plunger is what you're goal is for WOT, but the geometry must be correct.
This is why I posted the link to the GM drawings for correct geometry, to clear up some of the myths here that ALL you have to make happen is everything line up at WOT.

You can have everything perfect at WOT, and WOT be the ONLY position where the trans has correct TV cable adjustment. Unfortunately we don't drive WOT at all times, or even most of the time, so it's critical to have the TV cable attachement geometry correct at the throttle linkage so that when you do the adjustment as specified (WOT=fully depressed TV plunger, tight cable), it is correct at all throttle angles.

Chuck,
You are taking less than half of my explanation. Please read the entire thing.
Fully depressed TV plunger is what you're goal is for WOT, but the geometry must be correct.
This is why I posted the link to the GM drawings for correct geometry, to clear up some of the myths here that ALL you have to make happen is everything line up at WOT.

You can have everything perfect at WOT, and WOT be the ONLY position where the trans has correct TV cable adjustment. Unfortunately we don't drive WOT at all times, or even most of the time, so it's critical to have the TV cable attachement geometry correct at the throttle linkage so that when you do the adjustment as specified (WOT=fully depressed TV plunger, tight cable), it is correct at all throttle angles.

OK, thanks Jake. I didn't mean to be picking the response apart, I was just confused. So I assume that my Holley compensator adapter, as shown in Robert's photo, is OK. My TV cable lines up perfectly with compensator.

What kind of oil should I use (Type F, Dextron, etc)?

Thanks
Chuck

I purchased Valvoline Dex Merc for vehicles older than 1997. Speak now or forever hold your piece.

CB

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2433134&postcount=19

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2433134&postcount=19

There are a ton of Dextrons 4,5,6,7 and no way to know which to use? Is the DexMerc OK?

Dexron IIa, Dexron III is the factory fluid in the 700. Mercon is Ford's name for Dexron.

Same fluid.

Dexron VI is the newer synthetic fluid, it is backward compatible,

GM took back the rights to call fluid Dexron, only Dexron VI can be called Dexron now, so now you have DexMerc, All purpose ATF, etc.

It's all the same stuff.

Great, thanks Jake. I will pour it in.

CB

As you look at Robert's picture, a few responses below, is it necessary to have the throttle connected to the hole in the top of the carb corrector or can it stay where it is now, in the top hole of the carb (factory install). The angles will be that same and the throttle position will be the same as the TV cable position at any given throttle position. See in my picture that I have the throttle in the stock location.

Thanks
Chuck

I don't quite understand what you are asking. The TV cable "appears" to be correct there.
It's hard to tell but is it 1.093-1.125" from the centerline of the throttle shaft?

What do you think needs to be moved? The TV cable stud, the entire corrector, or ?

The transmission can literally burn the clutches in 100 yards if you drive it improperly setup. This is not an exaggeration to "cover our arses" as transmission builders. This is simply stressing the importance of the TV cable.
That said, if you are driving the trans easy and feeling for part throttle shifts, if it does shift soft, stacked shifts, etc, as long as you don't throttle it hard or keep driving it, you can re-adjust the cable and no damage should be done.

A new transmission is less forgiving of clutch slip than one with a few thousand (or hundred thousand) miles on it. The clutches burn easier when they are new because they aren't "bedded-in".
Some builders throw them in dry, I soak them for at least 15 minutes, and in many cases overnight before install, that helps a bunch.

If you feel slippage, let off the throttle, correct the problem and test again.

The way I setup a TV system when I retrofit a car, I set it up with 1.100" radius on the carb linkage, stock or universal TV cable, 2.100+" TV plunger spring length.
This creates a scenario where the "proper" TV cable setting is going to be too tight, and the trans shifts late and hard.
When I test drive, I know that I will need to back off the cable before I ever take off, but this is my starting point.
I go on my test drive, let it shift through all the gears at least once (sometimes they will not shift to OD with the cable like this). Then I pull over, adjust the cable down a couple of teeth and go again. A good part of the time I have a pressure gauge on the car as well.
I usually have to pull over 3-4 times to get the TV cable just right.
This is what BTO terms "LSS or Long Spring Syndrome". I build them this way on purpose so that there is some room for error and also some room for the TV plunger spring fatique to be adjusted out.

All of the information in this thread is golden. I will likely have some fun of my own trying to correctly set up the TV cable on a 700r4 behind my inline six. I will need to scratch build a throttle linkage for the carbs; from there it sounds like it is critical to have the proper geometry on the lever used to activate the cable. I may be back later with questions. Nah, I WILL be back with questions.

I don't quite understand what you are asking. The TV cable "appears" to be correct there.
It's hard to tell but is it 1.093-1.125" from the centerline of the throttle shaft?

What do you think needs to be moved? The TV cable stud, the entire corrector, or ?

The transmission can literally burn the clutches in 100 yards if you drive it improperly setup. This is not an exaggeration to "cover our arses" as transmission builders. This is simply stressing the importance of the TV cable.
That said, if you are driving the trans easy and feeling for part throttle shifts, if it does shift soft, stacked shifts, etc, as long as you don't throttle it hard or keep driving it, you can re-adjust the cable and no damage should be done.

A new transmission is less forgiving of clutch slip than one with a few thousand (or hundred thousand) miles on it. The clutches burn easier when they are new because they aren't "bedded-in".
Some builders throw them in dry, I soak them for at least 15 minutes, and in many cases overnight before install, that helps a bunch.

If you feel slippage, let off the throttle, correct the problem and test again.

The way I setup a TV system when I retrofit a car, I set it up with 1.100" radius on the carb linkage, stock or universal TV cable, 2.100+" TV plunger spring length.
This creates a scenario where the "proper" TV cable setting is going to be too tight, and the trans shifts late and hard.
When I test drive, I know that I will need to back off the cable before I ever take off, but this is my starting point.
I go on my test drive, let it shift through all the gears at least once (sometimes they will not shift to OD with the cable like this). Then I pull over, adjust the cable down a couple of teeth and go again. A good part of the time I have a pressure gauge on the car as well.
I usually have to pull over 3-4 times to get the TV cable just right.
This is what BTO terms "LSS or Long Spring Syndrome". I build them this way on purpose so that there is some room for error and also some room for the TV plunger spring fatique to be adjusted out.

Jake, the throttle linkage is connected to the stock location above the carb angle corrector (the device that sets the correct angle that is bolted on). In Robert's picture his throttle is in the top hole of the angle corrector. Mine is above the angle corrector in the stock hole.

I tightened the cable again and it shifts much better now. It shifts firmly and seems to shift at the right times. I didn't spend too much time on it, just down the street and back. I think I am close. Hard to tell since I am sure my speedo is not correct.

Thanks for the reassurance on the driving while testing. The dooms day talk is very unnerving. If we aren't sure it's correct then we may burn it up "in 100 yards". I am glad you clarified. I am not hitting it hard, just normal shift patterns and then back home to readjust.

Thanks
Chuck

It's usually pretty obvious when it's not right, so as long as you baby it, it's fine.

I really don't care for the charts that give a specific MPH the shifts should happen. How is that correct with all the different rear ratios and tire sizes... The MPH of certain shifts will be significantly different on the same trans installed in two different combos.

It should "feel" correct, it should shift at the proper rpm so that the engine rpm drops back a proper amount, etc.

It sounds like you are getting there. Adjust it so that it's just a bit too late or firm, and then back off of it a bit.

The best way to adjust them truly is with a pressure gauge, that way you KNOW what the clutch packs are seeing. If it's shifting pretty close, see if you have kickdown function at heavy throttle. If it has kickdowns you aren't likely to hurt it.

Great! Thanks for putting up with my frustration. I will have to to take it out tomorrow. I'll let you know.

Thanks again
Chuck

I took it for a spin and the 1-2 shift seems to lag before going into 2. The shift is a little hard (like with a shift kit) but there seems to be a delay of a quarter second before it shifts. Under normal throttle it shift to 2 at about 15 MPH.

2-3 is smooth except under light throttle when it does the same thing. The tranny doesn't shift into 4th over 40 (doesn't shift to 4th at all).

Tighter on the TV cable????

Thanks
Chuck

Are you saying that it won't shift to 4th at all at any speed? Or are you just trying to take it real easy? It sounds like the cable is a little too tight yet. One important thing that I always do before my final adjustment, is at the lightest throttle that the transmission shifts to 2nd gear, push the gas to the floor, and the transmission MUST perform a 2-1 downshift.

Are you saying that it won't shift to 4th at all at any speed? Or are you just trying to take it real easy? It sounds like the cable is a little too tight yet. One important thing that I always do before my final adjustment, is at the lightest throttle that the transmission shifts to 2nd gear, push the gas to the floor, and the transmission MUST perform a 2-1 downshift.

Thanks Jim,
The tranny does perform an excellent 2/1 shift at WOT.

I took it to about 45 on the freeway and it didn't go into 4th so I got off and came home.

UPDATE! I loosened the TV cable about a 1/4 inch and it shifts reeeeaalll Nice now.
The only question remaining is the 4th gear shift. Does it delay until a certain speed? Maybe I wasn't going fast enough.

Another update: I does NOT shift into OD at 55 MPH.

Thanks for the help.
CB

OK, here's an update. When I drive under normal acceleration the 1/2 shift and sometimes the 2/3 shift seem to lag at the shift time, kinda clunk into gear rather than shift smoothly.

The car does not shift into 4th at 55 MPH. When I let off if see to be free wheeling, like a centrifugal clutch in a go cart. When I get back on the gas it reconnects...but still in 3rd and it does not lock up (probably because it never went into 4th).

At WOT it shifts down without any problems.

Suggestions?
Thanks
Chuck

Back off the cable slightly.

Would that make it not go into 4th? That will lower the pressure slightly, right?

CB

Yes and yes.

It will not shift into 4th if it has too much pressure.

You need to go faster to see if it will go into 4th. What gear ratio are you running in the rear? As long as you know you can get the WOT 2-1, you won't hurt it, just run it up as fast as you need to get a 3-4 shift and let us know. Mine even with the Bowtie kit, and 3:31's doesn't shift into O/D until around 55 mph, and I like it like that. If I am just cruising, and I slow down to around 50 mph, it will downshift to 3rd gear. The higher your rear-gear ratio, the later it's going to shift. Several years ago, I had an 82' Chevy p/u, that originally had a 350C transmission, and we converted it to a 700R4, and used the stock passing gear location on the Quadrajet carb, and it wouldn't shift into O/D until 65 mph, we tried different cable settings, and when you would get the O/D shift point right, the line pressure was too low, which would cause the rest of the gears to get mushy. Finally took the measurements off of my 89 Silverado throttle body with a 700, and made a bracket for the carb to get it right. As you are learning, the TV is oh so sensitive!!

You need to go faster to see if it will go into 4th. What gear ratio are you running in the rear? As long as you know you can get the WOT 2-1, you won't hurt it, just run it up as fast as you need to get a 3-4 shift and let us know. Mine even with the Bowtie kit, and 3:31's doesn't shift into O/D until around 55 mph, and I like it like that. If I am just cruising, and I slow down to around 50 mph, it will downshift to 3rd gear. The higher your rear-gear ratio, the later it's going to shift. Several years ago, I had an 82' Chevy p/u, that originally had a 350C transmission, and we converted it to a 700R4, and used the stock passing gear location on the Quadrajet carb, and it wouldn't shift into O/D until 65 mph, we tried different cable settings, and when you would get the O/D shift point right, the line pressure was too low, which would cause the rest of the gears to get mushy. Finally took the measurements off of my 89 Silverado throttle body with a 700, and made a bracket for the carb to get it right. As you are learning, the TV is oh so sensitive!!

No kidding. It is sensative. I backed off the cable twice since Jake's comments, about 1/8 of an inch each time, and the 1/2 shift was still mushy and the 2/3 shift are now laging at shift a bit too and the 2/3 was smooth before so I think I will go back tighter.

I was going about 55 to 57 and it wouldn't shift into 4th. I have 3.31:1 gears.

Thanks Jim,
Chuck

This gets stranger by the minute. I tightened the TV cable back to 1/8 inch tighter than the pre-Jake comments location. I am sure I gave him a lousy description of the shift. It's all an experiment anyway. Remember that this is a new tranny and the speedo may be off.

I took it on the freeway and the 1/2 shift is still a bit sloppy but the rest are OK. I took it up to 65 before it went into 4th (3.31:1). It drove well in 4th once it shifted. After the initial high speed shift into 4th it would thereafter shift into 4th at about 45 and go back and fourth between 3rd and 4th at 45 MPH.

I am guessing that the cable needs to be tighter???

Chuck

Tighten it back up. 1-2 shift shouldn't be mushy at all.
Fresh build 700-R4 will usually be harder to get into 4th due to assembly gel on the checkballs, air in the servo, 3-4 shift valve being dry, etc.

Like you have experienced, once it makes the shift, it will shift easier.

55-60 mph is probably about where the 3-4 shift will occur normally at light-moderate throttle with 3.31's.

tighten it back up. 1-2 shift shouldn't be mushy at all.
Fresh build 700-r4 will usually be harder to get into 4th due to assembly gel on the checkballs, air in the servo, 3-4 shift valve being dry, etc.

Like you have experienced, once it makes the shift, it will shift easier.

55-60 mph is probably about where the 3-4 shift will occur normally at light-moderate throttle with 3.31's.

x2

Cool, Thanks guys. I will try it tomorrow. To darn hot today. I have a small flare leak in the tranny cooler line. I need to fix that first.

Thanks for the help. I get a lot of these drawn out things in the Electrical Forum and I know how much work it is to help others. I really appreciate the support. I am a tranny virgin.... but I can wire up a hell of a lock up circuit. LOL

Chuck

Ahh,
The lockup circuit.

It is one of the most frustrating things to deal with on an OD conversion IMO.

The issue is that no matter what you do, you are dealing with something that isn't very sensitive to ALL the parameters needed like a factory ECM was.

Factory ECm looked at vehicle speed, engine rpm, gear, TPS, engine load, etc to determine lockup.

You can have it all wired up for 4th gear lockup, vacuum switch, brake switch, delay valve, etc and to me it's just not quite as good and seamless as they originally were.

I've about determined it's better off to go with an electronically controller trans all around so it can be tuned.

Should the 1/2 shift be solid and firm or smooth like a modern trans? I had it shifting well but it was definitely a firm shift like a th350 with a shift kit. Is that the way it should be? I tightened more and now it's shifting late so I will go back to the last setting. I think I was there but it's not a "smooth" shift, it's quite firm.

Thanks
Chuck

700's are usually firm. It may settle in a little with some miles but the gear ratio change (large) and the fact it's a band apply make it more noticeable than other units.

I took it on the freeway again Jake, and the 1/2 shift is a little smoother but still hard. Once again it didn't shift into 4th the first time until almost 65 and then it shifted into 4th between 45 and 50 after the first shift at 65. Very strange, but it runs well.

Chuck

I keep testing but nothing really changes. I still shift into 4th at 65 the first time out and then at 45 to 50 after the first 3/4 shift. The 1/2 shift slams in a little hard too, but there's a real fine line between soft and late.

As long as I am not burning anything up, I'm OK with all the testing, but I don't seem to be making progress. Maybe it's time for a trip to the tranny shop???

Chuck

I would get it on the road, shifted into 4th, about 60-65 mph, and manually shift it from 4th to 3rd, then upshift to 4th, repeat about a dozen times, with some time between each shift so you aren't shifting the band in and out a bunch of times creating heat. Say 10 seconds each time.

This will force the 3-4 shift valve to shuttle a few times.

Is the fluid as warm on the delayed first shift to OD?

........
This will force the 3-4 shift valve to shuttle a few times.

Is the fluid as warm on the delayed first shift to OD?

I will try that Jake. Break it in a bit. The 3/4 shift happens after a drive of 5 minutes through town to get the freeway. Once on the freeway it shifts to 4th at 65 and I immediately get off at the next exit and get back on toward home and from there on the shift is at 45-50. I will try what you are suggesting.

Confirming again that it is normal to have a hard 1/2 shift. It's not so hard as to slam into gear but it's not smooth at all.

Thanks
Chuck

On a 700-R4 there is a big ratio change from 1st to 2nd, as well as the ratio change being caused by a band instead of clutches. This creates the potential for a firmer engagement.

On a performance unit, we give it more pressure, a larger 2nd servo, usually drill the feed holes larger for firmer shifts, firmer accumulator springs, larger friction area on the band, etc.

All these can easily make a very firm 1-2.

Does all this apply to the TH-200 as well?

Somewhat applies to the 200-4R as well, they aren't as bad because they have less ratio change on the 1-2.

Hey Jake if i post some pictures of my TV linkage set up on here can you give me some feedback? The trans shifts real nice through all gears but i just want to make sure that things appear correct.

Thanks
Tom

Somewhat applies to the 200-4R as well, they aren't as bad because they have less ratio change on the 1-2.

I was refering to adjustment of the TV cable. I'm fairly certain it's the same...at least close enough.

I have my own weird shifting issues with my 200.

I can check out your geometry. Post the pics, preferable with a machinist rule next to the throttle linkage so I can see the center to center of the TV stud to throttle shaft.

200-4R and 700-R4 use the same TV cable geometry, cable, etc.

I didn't have a machinist rule when i took these just a standard tape measure. i can go back later this weekend and take better pictures with a better rule. here is what i have for now if I can post correctly.

If i dissconnect the cable from the carb it retracts approximately an inch. which means I have to pull it an inch to reinstall it on the stud. I believe that less than half way in the middle of tha pull i can feel and here the TV cable engage the TV valve and move it. The cable is under tension a idle which i believe is correct.

If you have any better ideas on how to take pictures to give you better more accurate information please let me know. I believe that my center line to center line measurement is 1.125 or inch and an eighth. Please let me kno what you think.

Thanks,
Tom

Guys, I took mine out tonight and it shift well and consistently goes in OD at 50 MPH under normal acceleration. I intend to install 3.55 gears and that should take it up to about 55 or so. I'm happy.

Now the only problem is a tiny leak in one of the cooler flare fittings at the lower tranny inlet. It's a bear to get a wrench in there and I sure don't want to lower the tranny again. Maybe I will just live with it.

Thanks for all the help, especially Jake and Jim.
Chuck

I didn't have a machinist rule when i took these just a standard tape measure. i can go back later this weekend and take better pictures with a better rule. here is what i have for now if I can post correctly.

If i dissconnect the cable from the carb it retracts approximately an inch. which means I have to pull it an inch to reinstall it on the stud. I believe that less than half way in the middle of tha pull i can feel and here the TV cable engage the TV valve and move it. The cable is under tension a idle which i believe is correct.

If you have any better ideas on how to take pictures to give you better more accurate information please let me know. I believe that my center line to center line measurement is 1.125 or inch and an eighth. Please let me kno what you think.

Thanks,
Tom


Looks like a bit more than 1.125" to me but it's hard to tell. It's pretty close. As long as the TV plunger spring is a bit long, you should be fine.

Do you have extra adjustment left at WOT?

Guys, I took mine out tonight and it shift well and consistently goes in OD at 50 MPH under normal acceleration. I intend to install 3.55 gears and that should take it up to about 55 or so. I'm happy.

Now the only problem is a tiny leak in one of the cooler flare fittings at the lower tranny inlet. It's a bear to get a wrench in there and I sure don't want to lower the tranny again. Maybe I will just live with it.

Thanks for all the help, especially Jake and Jim.
Chuck

Good deal Chuck.
Overdrive transforms a classic car into a pleasant driver.

Jake,

What do you mean as far as adjustment at WOT? When I set this up I pulled the cable back as far as I could then ran the carb linkage to WOT letting it click repeatedly. I never pulled the cable from there to see if there was anymore left if that’s what you mean. The trans has always shifted nice and hard, the 1-2 shift seems a little late under very light throttle. Then again the car has 4.10’s with a 28” tall tire, the rpm isn’t high I am just used to driving my 99 Silverado for shifts. The only reason I state it is that it sounds like I am holding the gears out while driving through the sub. Under normal driving the car seems to shift right where it is supposed to and shifts real nice. I did just purchase a pressure gauge from Bowtie overdrives that I am going to install on the unit to check it out. Does the resistance / engagement that I am feeling when fastening the cable to the stud sound good / right?

The trans has a few things done to it. It has a billet Art Carr 9.5” 3400 stall converter, 13 vane pump with upgraded internals. Billet forward piston , upgraded input drum, billet servos, upgraded clutches I believe Alto red lines, Trans-go 700-R4 2&3 shift kit set-up for automatic, and other enhancements. It has been awhile so I am not sure everything that has been done. My Dad who was a GM master tech for 30+ years built the unit. Unfortunately I lost him this past December due to brain cancer.

I know that the pictures weren’t the greatest sorry bout that. I will try to take some better. Unfortunately with holding the tape measure and light and camera I ran out of hands. When looking at it straight on it appears to be 1.125” or at least real close, I know that it is definitely not the th-350 spacing of 1.375. I will try and get a machinist rule to take a better picture. Also how does the geometry look?

Jake I am sorry for being long winded and bothering you with so many questions, I have read many posts from you and Chris in the past and greatly value and respect both of your knowledge. I greatly appreciate the time that you guys contribute to the board and on a personal level.

Thanks,
Tom

Geometry looks fine to me. It "could" be angled back a bit more but I've ran them exactly as your is in the past with no issues.

The CRITICAL geometry is the distance between centerlines. The angle to the rear isn't so critical. It does affect it slightly as to how fast the initial pull rate is, BUT if the trans has any kind of VB kit, it should have some mods to the line bias valve and boost valves so that's not so critical.

No problem on the help, I try to help people keep them together. Some of it is simple but it does take time to educate yourself to completely understand how it works and avoid issues.

I have things running well now but I have one final question.

If you look at the attached picture you will see that my throttle attaches to the carb in the stock location. I know the geometry is important so I moved it to the top hole in the Holley compensator/adapter just below where it is in the picture (where the top bolt is). This is where I have seen most other throttles attached with a 700r4. Because the new throttle location is now lower the throttle is harder to press (smaller circumference), but the geometry is now where I was told it should be.

How critical is this position to the proper shifting of the trans?
Thanks
Chuck

Sorry, no picture was attached below. I fixed it.

CB

Where you hook up the throttle cable or linkage to the carb is irrelevant to the trans.

The carb has 78* of sweep, this is what the trans sees from the TV cable. You aren't adding or subtracting the movement of the linkage on the side (if you are, you will have either a very high idle or no WOT).

If it feels better on the top of the linkage arm, hook it up there.

The TV cable operated trans do add a bit of tension to the throttle. This can be helped with the TV balance hole on the plate in the trans during rebuild.

Thanks Jake. That's what I thought. It's like a bike sprocket. The tv will just advance faster with a higher throttle position. Thanks for all the help. I owe U a beer LOL.

Chuck

Okay Jake sorry to bother you again. I need your expertise and knowledge. I was able to get my car home and after hooking up a pressure gauge i have some questions. I found the chart from TCI:

Range Minimum Maximum
Park 90-110 190-230
Reverse 95-120 200-300
Neutral 90-110 190-230
Overdrive 90-110 190-230
Drive 90-110 190-230
Second 185-230 185-230
Low 185-230 185-230

With their reccomendations, what RPM would you say this applies to? The reason i ask is all most all of my reading are well between the min and max. almost all of my pressures start @ 150 psi. If i drop the cable off the carb it goes down, pull it it goes to max close to 230 plus.

The only place that I am off is manual 1st and manual second, when the rpm is low at 600 RPM when the car wants to die it is at 90 psi. when the RPM is just under 1000 RPM it is at 150 PSI. If i have the motor at approx. 1500 RPM I am well 185+ psi.

Do these conditions seem correct? Any slight movement of the throttle cause an instant rise in line pressure. What are your thoughts on this. Thanks a million.

Also under certain acceleration conditions the gauge was bouncing like crazy, always in a good zone anywhere from say 200-230 psi as soon as I would get out of it and coast it would stay steady at 150psi. any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,
Sounds high. May be the high idle contributing. It will probably do 2nd gear starts and be harsh at that pressure.

My typical idle RPM is supposed to be 1000 RPM or so but in gear is lower, I would like it to be 800 RPM or so but it drops to 600RPM at times and wants to stall there I know it is due to the advance springs needing replacement since this happens every so often.

Actually the trans operates perfect as far as shift timing and such well at least I think so. I have never had it start in 2nd gear or do anything weird like that. As far as harshness if it is real light throttle you don’t really notice things which I am sure is do to the converter. On that am I supposed to have different shift feels between manual selection and automatic?

My big thing is how the pressures look over all and also was curious about the pressures I was seeing in the manual low gears specifically 1st and 2nd. I need / want this thing to last and want to make sure that I am safe especially in the low gears hence the RPM vs. pressure question Since I am seeing pressures lower than their recommended miniumum until the RPM is 1500 or so.

I am guessing by the fact that I get instant rise that I should be clear on things as far as the trans lasting. I hope I am not hitting you with overkill on the questions.

Thanks.
Tom

Jake???