I've been following the informative "polyurethane" post ... and have decided to replace all rear poly bushings, in my El Camino, with rubber, except LCA's frame side. Are higher durometer, (than OEM), rubber bushings avaliable . . . and who is a good supplier? Thanks

trw bushings are harder than stock, if you want them harder leave them on your roof in the sun for a few days.

The bushings don't know what they're made of. What's the difference between stiff rubber and stiff polyurethane? (well, other than the rubber will be shot in two years, and the poly will be fine in ten)

My goal is to ... find a bushing that is stiffer, than OEM rubber, but softer and less harsh than poly, if possible. I'll bet that.. TRW rubber is "a little bit" softer than polyurethane anyday. So, I'll gladly trade a "10 year poly hard ride" ...for something less binding and street driven friendly.

There is a common mis-belief floating around that poly bushings are always harder than rubber. Probably because originally poly bushings were all 90-95 durometer. Manufacturers now make them all the way down to 60, considered the lowest durometer for use in automotive suspensions. What brand do you have now? Check with some of the manufacturers and see what durometer their rear bushings are. Energy Suspension blends their own and claim to use different durometer depending on the application, you could ask them.

Just a thought, you may find poly bushings that are no harder than a hard rubber pushing.

There also seems to be a pervasive misconception that poly bushings mean you have to endure a harsh ride and noisy suspension. I've had poly in the rear of the coupe for 5 years now and the ride is no more harsh than when I had rubber and they make no noise perhaps because I greased them liberally with the grease supplied per the instructions received with the bushing set. The poly bushings did cure the wheel hop problem I had when the rubber bushings got old, not even that many miles on them, just old.

Originally posted by Rich-L79:
There also seems to be a pervasive misconception that poly bushings mean you have to endure a harsh ride and noisy suspension. I've had poly in the rear of the coupe for 5 years now and the ride is no more harsh than when I had rubber and they make no noise perhaps because I greased them liberally with the grease supplied per the instructions received with the bushing set. The poly bushings did cure the wheel hop problem I had when the rubber bushings got old, not even that many miles on them, just old. Rich, you're not the only one to make that claim. I have ssm lift bars with poly bushings. Rides and handles pretty good for a 35 yr old car. Rubber bushings tend to permanently deflect even before the rubber rots or breaks down, leads to wheel hop. Others claim stiff ride with poly, I suspect some of this is individual taste but some is also due to the various types of poly bushings available.

It's not that poly leads to harsh ride because of it's lack of deflection but that it leads to bind which is perceived to be a harsh ride.

To each his own, some are OK running a system that doesn't work if it covers up one ailment rather than than actually fix what is broken.

I was not aware of the variables in current poly bushings. Using 9 year old Energy Suspension pieces, at present. Will need to establish .. how hard these bushings are, ... and compare with what's avaliable today. Always something to learn! Who knows,.. what I'll finally decide! --- HANK, I'm considering SSM or similar lift bars ... How well do they work for you?

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Brian

70' El Camino, 383(soon,450+hp),700r4.3.42's

Originally posted by dennis68:
It's not that poly leads to harsh ride because of it's lack of deflection but that it leads to bind which is perceived to be a harsh ride.

To each his own, some are OK running a system that doesn't work if it covers up one ailment rather than than actually fix what is broken. The harsh ride is due to bind and the bind is due to lack of deflection, agreed. The claim that all poly is the same is like saying all rubber is the same, they're both false statments. Normal durometer for suspension bushings is in the range of 60 to 90, depending on the application. Poly bushings are made with a 60 durometer and up to 90 durometer. So what is your point? If you can buy a poly pushing with the same durometer as a rubber what is the problem?

Originally posted by brimac:
I was not aware of the variables in current poly bushings. Using 9 year old Energy Suspension pieces, at present. Will need to establish .. how hard these bushings are, ... and compare with what's avaliable today. Always something to learn! Who knows,.. what I'll finally decide! --- HANK, I'm considering SSM or similar lift bars ... How well do they work for you?

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Brian

70' El Camino, 383(soon,450+hp),700r4.3.42's They do exactly what they're designed to do. They plant the rear axle. No rearend squat during launch, nice even lift. There are a lot of guys here using them and I haven't heard anyone say they don't work. They may not be the ultimate but they do what they claim to do.

Originally posted by dennis68:
To each his own, some are OK running a system that doesn't work if it covers up one ailment rather than than actually fix what is broken. And not everyone's measurement of success is to build a suspension capable of competing in SCCA events. A solution "works" based on what the user is trying to accomplish. "Best solution" is relative based on a multitide of desired outcomes.

Originally posted by Rich-L79:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dennis68:
To each his own, some are OK running a system that doesn't work if it covers up one ailment rather than than actually fix what is broken. And not everyone's measurement of success is to build a suspension capable of competing in SCCA events. A solution "works" based on what the user is trying to accomplish. "Best solution" is relative based on a multitide of desired outcomes. </font>[/QUOTE]What? There are classic muscle car owners that don't use them to compete on road courses? What would you do with it then? Maybe go for a cruise on a nice summer day, take it to the strip on occassion? Umh? As crazy as it sounds I guess that would work.

Ahhh, here we go with common misconceptions. There are no rubber bushings as still as poly nor are there any poly bushings rated as low as rubber bushings. 90% of the commercially available poly bushings are stiff enough to be considered solid, might as well run Teflon.

I don't nor do I know of anybody who is building strictly a competition car but there is no reason not to fix the factory shortcomings and build a car that "could" compete. Hell, most of the cars on our lot could compete they way they are right off the car hauler.

Auto manufacterers are spending millions on R&D to develop cars that run great on the street but do well at the track too. No reason to half-ass build a car that can be built correctly for the same money and same amount of work.

I found this while googling around....he did a good job of putting together reasonable responses to typical arguments.


"...virtually no deflection..." (cut and pasted from their web page). As mentioned above, the engineers that design these cars employ rubber bushings because deflection is required in most locations.
"But I lubed them well, or I used Polygraphite® bushings": You are asking the poly material to act like metal bushings, and it can't. Lubing will temporarily reduce the squeaking and stiction. The graphite-impregnated versions are just 'pre-lubed', and once the graphite has worked its way out, the bushings will squeak and require regular lubing like the others. Lubing does nothing for the binding problem.
"They get quieter over time": Poly will cold-flow, meaning it will deform under pressure and not return to normal, as it lacks the elasticity of the rubber bushings. Over time, they will loosen and then rattle. Check out the shape of your swaybar's poly end-link bushings after only a few months. This cold-flow issue can also lead to alignment problems on the front control arms, as the bushings deform.
"But everyone sells them". Well, yes, and the manufacturers of Slick 50 and the makers of 'ultra/super white' bulbs could line up a long list of satisfied customers, but what would that mean?
"Testimonials are everywhere!" but they don't convey the facts. Don't' believe everything you read in a glossy brochure or web page. Ever watch those late night infomercials? Like those other automotive miracles, wouldn't the large manufacturers pick up on this stuff if it really lived up to all it's claims?
"But lots of other people use them!" As mentioned above, trailing arm suspension requires deflection in order to work, and when poly bushings are used, the required deflection is still there -- in the bending of the arms, mounting points, and flex of the rear tires. This is why these bushings appear to work fine for street applications.

Originally posted by dennis68:
Ahhh, here we go with common misconceptions. There are no rubber bushings as still as poly nor are there any poly bushings rated as low as rubber bushings. 90% of the commercially available poly bushings are stiff enough to be considered solid, might as well run Teflon.

I don't nor do I know of anybody who is building strictly a competition car but there is no reason not to fix the factory shortcomings and build a car that "could" compete. Hell, most of the cars on our lot could compete they way they are right off the car hauler.

Auto manufacterers are spending millions on R&D to develop cars that run great on the street but do well at the track too. No reason to half-ass build a car that can be built correctly for the same money and same amount of work. I think one misconception here is that "track" means a road course. To many it means a straight line. Others yet don't have any interest in any kind of a track. I think there is also a misconception about cost going on here since a complete set of rear poly bushings can be had for half the price of a pair of good spherical rod ends alone and can still be installed by a guy in his own garage without any special materials or modifications or fabrication. Rubber bushings are always a DIY option but they are far from a permanent option as they seem to fade in usefulness (at least for straight line applications).

My point is, what works for a "cost is no object, go around the corners as well as possible" solution means nothing to someone with an "eliminate wheel hop and not have to touch the stuff again and keep the cost to a minimum" need.

I would like to see some clinical testing of durometer ratings of the readily available rubber and poly bushings. Does any such data exist?

When I had the body off the 67 I bought poly body bushings, thought about it for a while and then put new stock stuff on the car. Having said that the front end, the coil over tube stuff had nothing but poly bushing in it as does the rear.

I have no designs on road racing, just crusing and once in a while a quick sprint on the street or track.

I've done some reading on this and the most interesting article I read was by Greenwood, the corvette guy. He said there was no real difference after a couple of hot laps in the vette with poly in the front and good fresh stock replacement bushing. Now his idea of hot laps are near 200mph in a big block full out racer.

I guess we will see when the 67 hits the street.

Comparing running poly in the front against running poly in the C4L is apples and oranges. Poly works fine for rotational applications, it is when the component needs to both rotate and twist at the same time the problem becomes apparent.

We have been over this time and time again, nothing has changed and it is common knowledge. Poly bushings in the rear control arms are bad....the only people who dispute this are the uninformed who have them and sales people at vendors who distribute them.

Originally posted by dennis68:
Comparing running poly in the front against running poly in the C4L is apples and oranges. Poly works fine for rotational applications, it is when the component needs to both rotate and twist at the same time the problem becomes apparent.

We have been over this time and time again, nothing has changed and it is common knowledge. Poly bushings in the rear control arms are bad....the only people who dispute this are the uninformed who have them and sales people at vendors who distribute them. No, not we but you. You have been over it and over it, time and time again. We get it, you hate poly in the rear suspension. You obviously are the only informed source here so we should all shutup and listen. As to your earlier post. I can find a hundred more posts just like that against poly bushings. I can also find hundred more that recommend poly bushings. So which hundred are right, obviously the ones you find. As far as no rubber bushing being stiffer than a poly? Did you do your own durometer testing to confirm the manufacturers claims false or do you have another source? There have been a lot of advances in the manufacturing of poly pushings over the last 10 years. Like I said before to claim that all poly is the same is to claim that all rubber is the same, just ain't true.
Even the best test in the 'OFFICIAL' what arms are best thread improved a mere 5 lb/inch over stock. I realize zero is the ultimate but 5 lb/inch on a 2 ton vehicle, now throw on the sway bar and the springs and where did that 5 lbs disappear to. How much is that worth to the average owner, not you, not pro-touring guys, not corner-carvers, the average owner? Get over it. There are a least hundred guys here that run poly and are quite satisfied with the way their cars ride and handle. If it's not good enough for you fine, doesn't mean it's totally unacceptable and should never be used by anyone.

Hank, what I am trying to point out is that the only people who claim they are OK are people who have them or sell them. You will not find them on any NASCAR chassis, any pro level drag car of any class, any sprint, any IRC car...see a trend? If there is nothing wrong how come the top chassis builders for all forms of motor sports oppose their use???

You like throw out that 5lbs/inch as if it's nothing, 5lbs/inch is HUGE when you are measuring resistance in a suspension system that ideally should have 0. That’s like saying your crank only had an extra 5lbs/inch of turning torque after checking the mains, or your pinion turning torque is only 5lbs/inch out of spec. It isn't much when turning a bolt but compound it with speed at which those operate and it becomes quite a significant difference.

BTW, I'm not the only one here who has researched this and found the deficiencies with poly bushings, just the most outspoken. Another point I'd like to make is that my research is based on fact and the 100 posts you refer to are "I run them and they seem fine to me"

You fail to realize that I am a tech junkie and what you think is of no relevance to me what-so-ever. If you have conclusive evidence to refute all of the tech I have brought to the table in the last few threads on this subject I’d love to review it, but I could care less what others have to say about how it feels…..unless they are bringing some lap times to back up how it “felt”.

These forums are an endless source of information; they also have quite a bit of misinformation. You seem to take offense that I am pointing out the misrepresented facts here. No need to be offended, I occasionally make mistakes and even put them in print once in a while. I hate it when they quoted before I can fix them…..damn quote feature.

EDIT- Those hundred guys that are satisfied with the polys....give me their cars for a week and ask them again. I can guarantee at least 75% would say they wish they had done it differently years ago.

"You will not find them on any NASCAR chassis, any pro level drag car of any class, any sprint, any IRC car...see a trend? If there is nothing wrong how come the top chassis builders for all forms of motor sports oppose their use???

That is exactly the point Rich and I are trying to make. How many people here have NASCAR, pro level drag cars, sprint cars, IRC cars? I never said the converging link was the best system and I never said poly bushings were the perfect solution. You want the perfect suspension. That's not a common goal of everyone here. At some point dollars, time and your intended use of the car all factor in.

"You fail to realize that I am a tech junkie and what you think is of no relevance to me what-so-ever. If you have conclusive evidence to refute all of the tech I have brought to the table in the last few threads on this subject I’d love to review it, but I could care less what others have to say about how it feels…..unless they are bringing some lap times to back up how it “felt”."

I do realize what I think is of no relevance to you, not that I give a s***. You make it obvious to everyone here that any opinions that conflict with your's should be immediately discarded. Anyones experiences that don't fall within the realm of yours are also meaningless and should be discarded.
I'm not saying you don't know suspensions, you obviously do. I'm certainly not saying I know more about them than you. What I am saying is at least I'm willing to listen to other opinions. I'm willing to learn from other experiences and I'm willing to accept that we don't all want or expect the same things from these cars. Some guy's want little chalk marks on their firewalls and tags on the springs like the day it rolled off the line, others want to take it out and beat the crap out of it. Some guys want a 502 with a little squirt of nitrous on the side, others are happy with a small block. Same goes for suspensions. If Rich-L79 says he's running poly and is pleased with it who are you to dispute that? Apparently what Rich thinks of his own suspension is also of no relevance to you, so be it. It's Rich's car and he is the only one that has to be pleased with it. You can argue until h*** freezes over that it could be better but who cares, Rich is happy with what he has. I can think of 100 things I'd like to do to my car to make it better but you know what? Not one of them is suspension related. I know that means zip to you but it's my car and that's what matters.

Hey, take it easy. I am willing to listen to others opinions, but not to accept them as fact. You could say you are happy with your car the way it is with poly bushings and I would politely reply you may like it better without them. If you say however that there is nothing wrong with poly bushings in this application, well I am going to call you a liar because there is something wrong with poly bushings in this application. Opinions are one thing but to state in error an opinion and present it as fact is not gonna happen in this subject.

My point about professional level cars was not that we should aspire to emulate them but that if the product is good why don’t professional level builders use it? Granted, I would be perfectly happy throwing plates and lights on a Nextel cup car and calling it my daily driver, however reality and the local law says that is not going to happen. There is no reason however, not to make my daily driver handle as well as it possibly can. If I can actually outmaneuver a new import in the process….yiiipeee, but that is not the ultimate goal. Well, maybe it is.

Lets think about this for a minute, you emphasis on straight line performance…OK. How often do you get to check your progress? You can’t legally hole shot the light and run it out the backdoor around town. I can however put her in a 25MPH corner at 45MPH or hit the freeway onramp at 65MPH and push the limits of the Goodyear F1’s. Of course I could also go to the dragstrip and hook just as well as you or anyone else running poly’s.

Points being that you don’t have to run poly bushings to accomplish what you want AND actually handle well at the same time. You can think they work just fine if you want, you can even post that you think they work OK. My hang up was that you were implying that there is nothing wrong with them at all.

well I am going to call you a liar You need a quick refresher on the rules, the part about treating each other with respect. I think calling someone a liar because they don't happen to agree with you is out of line, I suggest we shut this down as it has degraded into a pissing contest.

Wally, it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with an opinion. If you tell me the sky is green, is that not wrong. It may be your opinion, but it is wrong. I am not disputing anyones opinion, just the facts.

Originally posted by dennis68:
Wally, it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with an opinion. If you tell me the sky is green, is that not wrong. It may be your opinion, but it is wrong. I am not disputing anyones opinion, just the facts. Actually the sky isn't always blue... The sky may appear green as what the eye sees is just the refractory color combinations and environmental conditions can impact this also. graemlins/clonk.gif

Can we all just remember that everything in life is subject to each person's perspective and that no matter how technical you get there is always practicality to factor into any equation. now how bout we all graemlins/beers.gif

Here are my last words (http://home.comcast.net/~70chevelless396/Stuff/3SOPENER.mp3) on the subject.

Audio link. Don't worry nothing, mean, nasty or vulgar, etc.