When I hook up my linkage the pedal is way too close to the floor. Just wondering if this is the right Z Bar?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01704.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01705.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01706.jpg

When I hook up my linkage the pedal is way too close to the floor. Just wondering if this is the right Z Bar?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01704.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01705.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/keltieanne/DSC01706.jpg

Yep, that's what they look like, got one in a 67 with a bigger problems.

To bad the knock off stuff they make is so much junk. One of my customers just went through this and had to make mods to his to get it to work.

Ok, then any suggestions on how to fix this problem. What kind of mods? Do I make a rod that is longer to make the pedal closer to bumper?

Anyone?

That it not even a small block Chevelle bell crank. The Big Block crank is different. It has one straight arm and one lower arm that is radically curved to clear the temperature sender on the block. A search on eBay will show you the reproduction, it is acurate in shape but not exactly like an original.

Wrong part = headache!

I think I see what you mean on Ebay repops. I quess I'm going to be cutting and welding this weekend. Thanks

I think I see what you mean on Ebay repops. I quess I'm going to be cutting and welding this weekend. Thanks

You need to find a original small block Z-bar then modify it to work. Herb found out the frame side of the knock offs are machined wrong and allow the Z-bar to move around a 1/4 inch. So you need to start with something that is made right then modify the bottom bar to work on a rat.

I thought they were made to clear the oil line??? Mr Bill has discovered there are two different Z-bars listed for the BB in a 67, that's from original GM parts books.

I thought they were made to clear the oil line???

That's correct. The temp sending unit was typically in the intake manifold. It later moved to the cylinder head. The oil pressure line is the only thing down there by the z-bar.

And actually, I think the big block z-bar had the curved arm near the block to clear the exhaust system, not the oil line.

Rich, you could be right. But on my engine a small block bellcrank won't clear the oil sending unit on my BB. I tried it. Anyway, yes, as Wally said, I found out the repro units made in China have the nylon seat shoulder milled too deep on the frame side allowing the bar to shift sideways. The only thing that keeps that bellcrank positioned so that all the movement is transfered to the clutch rod is the wire retaining clip inside the frame end and the inner nylon seat on the other side of the ball. The other problem i found was the lower arm, though shaped properly, is was welded too close to the end of the tube.

I cut the lower arm off the BB chinese junk unit and replaced the lower arm on a GM SB unit with it. The geometry is identical between the two, only shape of the lower arm is different. We welded the lower arm in the correct location but further towards the frame by about 3/8 inch .The lower clutch rod geometry is much improved. Acutally pushes pretty straight back to the fork now. Adjustment is identical to stock.

Herb,
Can you or do you have a picture I could go by?

Dude I tried to take some pics but my digital camera wouldnt fit in my engine compartment (sorry)
the z bar next to the block is curved and I bought mine from hinshaws give them a call
Michael

I have my z-bar out of the car and I can take some photos, but it's a '66 big block unit (original GM). If that would be the same as a '67 unit I can take and post some photos.

I have my z-bar out of the car and I can take some photos, but it's a '66 big block unit (original GM). If that would be the same as a '67 unit I can take and post some photos.

As far as I know they are the same.

Don't bother calling anyone who has a new Z-bar, it's all the same junk made by the same people and all you will do is waste tour money.

Herb,
Can you or do you have a picture I could go by?

Dude, the pics you posted are for a SMALL BLOCK engine car. Notice the straight lower arm. A BB bellcrank lower arm has about a 45* angle "dog leg" in it to clear the oil pressure line/sending unit. It's shaped like this < not like this \ (as yours is). If I can find my pics I'll post em or maybe Rich has some of his unit.

You should also be aware there are different length adjusting rods. You may need a longer one. I did. That's determined by the bellhousing, fork, pivot ball, T.O. bearing and possibly the clutch you are using; NOT THE BELLCRANK. The linkage connecting points on a 66-67 BB and SB bellcrank are in EXACTLY the same place and distances relative to the pedal and clutch fork. I'm using a Lakewood scatter shield and fork, plus a block protector plate between the bellhousing and block. All that affects the clutch linkage geometry. So I needed a rod with a little more length than the pevious owner had installed. If you have the clutch pedal return spring connected (the one that hooks from the bellcrank to the little tab under the floor) the clutch pedal should be fully UP. NEVER leave that disconnected with the engine running. You will eat your throw out bearing in short order. (dont ask me how I know this :rolleyes:) There should be 1 to 1.5 inch free play before the T.O. bearing engages the clutch fingers and you feel resistance in the pedal. If you don't have that, STOP, something is wrong.

There are a couple of other things to note in your pics:

The upper arm is offset. You may have a late 67 or 68 bellcrank. The 67 BB bellcrank upper arms are straight. This isn't the best for the pedal rod geometry. It also causes side-loading on the bellcrank when the pedal is depressed. I think GM found the offset upper arm corrects that side-loading problem by allowing the pedal rod to move straight forward when the pedal is depressed thereby not putting side pressure on the bellcrank assy.

Bellcranks do go bad. Two weeks ago we replaced the original bellcrank on my friends 67 GTO because the frame end of the bellcrank tube (that the ball goes into) wore down into the retaining ring groove by rubbing against the frame bracket for 42 years. The inner nylon seat wore out due to lack of grease and let the tube shift sideways. Those seats cost less than $5 bucks. Always use new ones.

Another thing to note in your pics is the distance from the ENGINE end of the tube that the lower arm is welded to the tube. On the repro unit I got from NPD, the lower arm was welded AT the end of the tube causing it to rub on the block casting right above the oil filter.

The aftermarket unit I bought was machined poorly. It had the inner ball seat shoulder machined too deep in the tube, and allowed the unit to move sideways when the pedal was depressed and released. So I cut the lower BB arm off the repro unit and welded it on the identical GM SB bellcrank you have shown, in place of the SB lower arm. I also welded it a 1/2" or so from the engine-end just as the one in your pics is. this allowed for better geometry of the rod to the clutch fork. It now pushes back straighter, vs on a radical angle. The lower "BB arm" has to welded onto the tube in a little differently position than the SB arm due to it's shape to allow it to clear the oil line. But the hole for the clutch adjusting/push rod ends up in the EXACT same place as the SB arm hole was. Before I started that process, I positioned both the SB and BB bellcranks side by side on a rod and precisely aligned up upper arms, (and holes) with each other. I could slide a small rod thru the lower arm clutch rod holes of both units. Their geometry relative to the clutch fork and the pedal linkage is identical between both units. In fact, you could use a BB bellcrank on a SB car/engine but not the other way around (due to the oil pressure line/unit position on the BB engine). I took multiple measurements and placed numerous registration marks on both units before I cut anything off. The end product was a BB bellcrank that is positioned properly left-to-right, linkage geometry that works freely and correctly, and a factory spec clutch adjustment.

BTW - I also had to back the clutch fork pivot ball out another 1/8" or so to achieve the correct throwout bearing clearance. Several people on this site (do a search) will tell you that Lakewoods and Centerforces "4.75 inch distance from the block face" recommendation is crap. It cost me a T.O bearing and a bunch of work. So if you are using an aftermarket bellhousing, a scattershield, or 3rd party fork, you need to insure you have the correct pivot ball height for your paticular set up based on how your linkage and clutch acts and adjusts. You need 1/8 to 1/4 clearance between the TO bearing and the clutch fingers. That should yield 1 to 1.5 inches of pedal free-play. If the clutch releases fine when engaged, and you have those clearances at rest, you're good to go. If not, you have an issue. It could be your pivot ball height.

I'll try to get a photo of mine tonight.

Thanks Rich,
I can make it if I know what to look for and compare to a known Z bar to work.

This is a 66-67 BB Z-Bar:
20896
Year One used to have the best reproduction one I've seen FWIW!

I went through hell last year trying to locate an original `67 BB Z-bar for my Chevelle, but came up empty-handed. I did learn that there were two different designs for the `67 Z bar; an early style which is identical to the `66 BB Z bar, and a later `67-only unit. My car needed the latter `67-only style unit.

The main difference between the SB and BB Z-bars is the short arm where the clutch fork adjustment rod attaches--the SB arm is straight while the BB arm is dog-legged to clear the oil pressure sending unit, as seen in the pic Dave posted above.

As I was unable to locate an original component, I went the aftermarket route.

Big mistake.

To make a long story short, the clutch pushrod was incorrect, the Z bar was incorrect, the frame bracket is about 1/2 as thick as an original (mine had been cut off by a previous owner), basically the only things that did fit were the fasteners.

I wound up having to cut the Z-bar in the middle of the tube to be able to rotate the ends into the correct position, then had the tube welded back together and dressed down the weld.

Once that was done, I had to heat and bend the arms to get them to line up correctly with both the clutch pedal pushrod and the clutch fork adjustment rod.

Then I had to drill a new hole in the upper arm to attach the clutch pedal pushrod as the original hole was now roughly 3" too high.

Starting to get the picture here?

Looking back, if I had to do this all over again, I would simply start with a small block Z-bar and cut off the clutch fork adjuster arm and fabricate a new one to clear the sending unit and weld it in place. Doing so would've saved me about $250.00 for the cost of "repop" parts that didn't fit, and would've saved me about 2 days worth of fab work, not to mention a substantial amount of aggrivation.

My $.02, fwiw.

Eric

Sorry! While I was at my shop I reinstalled my z-bar before I remembered to take a picture. The photo above should help and Ground Up has a photo too: http://www.ss396.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=chevellecamino&Product_Code=FZ-3520

The angle of the photo is a little odd, but if you look at it carefully you'll get the idea.

Here's another pic of a lower arm of a 67 BB belcrank. Here we are cutting this arm off the repro junk unit to weld it on the GM SB unit.

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/data/500/G1.JPG

Here's what you can do if you are handy, make an arm in the shape of the ones in these pics. The only critical measurment is the location of the hole for the adjusting rod. It needs to end up in the exactly the same location as the one in your existing SB arm. That will determine where you weld the arm on the shaft. You can even locate it horizontally, towards the middle of the shaft, right NEXT to the existing arm to insure the hole is positioned correctly. Just tack it in place then mount it on the car just to check the alignment and rotation is good. Then weld it up. Before welding on the shaft, remove the nylon seat from inside the engine end of the shaft. If you need new nylon seats NPD sells them.

BTW - I also had to back the clutch fork pivot ball out another 1/8" or so to achieve the correct throwout bearing clearance. Several people on this site (do a search) will tell you that Lakewoods and Centerforces "4.75 inch distance from the block face" recommendation is crap. It cost me a T.O bearing and a bunch of work. So if you are using an aftermarket bellhousing, a scattershield, or 3rd party fork, you need to insure you have the correct pivot ball height for your paticular set up based on how your linkage and clutch acts and adjusts. You need 1/8 to 1/4 clearance between the TO bearing and the clutch fingers. That should yield 1 to 1.5 inches of pedal free-play. If the clutch releases fine when engaged, and you have those clearances at rest, you're good to go. If not, you have an issue. It could be your pivot ball height.

Today I was checking the clutch fork on this 67 car and found it was a Lakewood deal. One of the spring clips that hold it to the ball is broken and the ball is one of those adustable deals and it was loose. And while we are talking about these adjutable balls I can't stop wondering why it's needed? I used the standard screw in non adjutable ball on blow shields and never had any clutch problems. I'm leaning toward the same solution for this thing.

I can't figure how we got here, all this trick stuff when the dirt simple GM stuff worked just fine.

Now to keep from taking the shield off I'm going to cut the junk fork in half and take it out in two pieces, Then I can put the stock fork in with the shield in place.

I did discover that this 62 year old body is not ready to bench press that new M22W back in there:noway::noway::noway:

I did discover that this 62 year old body is not ready to bench press that new M22W back in there:noway::noway::noway:

Welcome to the club Walley!! :D I used a friends tranny jack to put mine back in. Man I wish I would have had one of those in the 60's and 70's. Talk about an easy install. I was sure something was wrong it went in so easy.

I hear you about the original stuff working just fine. I agree. If I had had it, I would have used it. But I didn't and I did have the scatter shield and fork. I have already decided that if I have anymore clutch issues I will buy a stock type bellhousing and fork for the next clutch job I have to on this thing. In reality, the problem I had was caused by poor adjustments by me, not the parts. I had enough information to set it up correctly. I just didn't pay enough attention to it by insuring the fork to TO bearing geometry was correct.

That pivot ball shouldn't have come loose if the lock nut was tight. There are a lot of those in use and you almost never hear of them coming loose. I can't help but think that whole thing you are dealing with wasn't installed or set up right from the beginning.

Here are some side by side pics of a stock SB Z-bar and the chessie after market Z-bar. There are also some pics of the push rod from the pedal to the Z-bar, the one on the car has been bent and ground on. It also is rubbing the sterring, really nice. I test fitted the SB unit and it will work, there is no oil sending unit in the way on the Mitchell motor.

http://www.muncie4speed.com/images/P0000523.JPG

http://www.muncie4speed.com/images/P0000524.JPG


http://www.muncie4speed.com/images/P0000525.JPG


http://www.muncie4speed.com/images/P0000526.JPG

You may find the pedal rod to bell crank geometry is not correct. Once the rod is connected to the pedal, the other end of the pedal rod should stay in the hole in the bellcrank even without the cotter pin installed. I ended up using a bellcrank with an offset upper arm like the one in the pics at the start of this string. It allowed the rod from the pedal to move straight forward and eliminated side loading on the bellcrank.

You may also need to raise the frame end of the bellcrank in the slot of the frame bracket. And don't expect the bellcrank to be at a true right angle to the engine or frame. It may run slightly diagonal with the frame end being slightly more towards the rear of the car. That seems to be normal. I actually welded my frame bracket almost 3/8 inch farther forward from the factory spec. to correct that angle. The non-square angle also translates into side loading on the bellcrank and a poor clutch rod angle.

Bottom line is that the bellcrank can be at an angle to the block and frame; the pedal rod can be at an angle, and the clutch rod can be at an angle and the clutch should still function properly if it's installed and setup and adjusted properly.

You may find the pedal rod to bell crank geometry is not correct. Once the rod is connected to the pedal, the other end of the pedal rod should stay in the hole in the bellcrank even without the cotter pin installed. I ended up using a bellcrank with an offset upper arm like the one in the pics at the start of this string. It allowed the rod from the pedal to move straight forward and eliminated side loading on the bellcrank.

You may also need to raise the frame end of the bellcrank in the slot of the frame bracket. And don't expect the bellcrank to be at a true right angle to the engine or frame. It may run slightly diagonal with the frame end being slightly more towards the rear of the car. That seems to be normal. I actually welded my frame bracket almost 3/8 inch farther forward from the factory spec. to correct that angle. The non-square angle also translates into side loading on the bellcrank and a poor clutch rod angle.

Bottom line is that the bellcrank can be at an angle to the block and frame; the pedal rod can be at an angle, and the clutch rod can be at an angle and the clutch should still function properly if it's installed and setup and adjusted properly.

Well I thought I had the real deal for my car, but it appears to be a knock off piece of junk. The frame side is machined to deep just like the BB junker. The owner sent me his SB Z-bar that came with the car and it is real but in bad shape, bubba been in there with a welder, looks like a big bird crapped all over the thing and somebody bent the block side arm.

To make matters worst the clutch ball adapter plate for the Mitchell 543 is setting out to far. The thing mounts to one of the two holes on the Lakewood shield, normally for a early vette or 55-57 chevy. Well, there is a small problem, the block plate as well as the shield need to be ground to set the adaper back a little, not done on this puppy and you can't get the Z-bar in without some serious prying.

I just love this, parts made wrong and following bubba just makes my day.

I have been super busy ay work no time start. I order a BB Z-bar. Ground up. I tried to install and adjust. I have ran out of adjustment on the fork rod. I thought that clutch bumper needed to be thick and started this thread:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278834

Then I was corrected and directed back to my original post by Herb. How by the way told me what I needed to do in this post. I'm going to use my SB Z-bar and cut off the block arm of the BB Z-bar I need, reweld the arm to the SB Z-bar to be able to adjust the fork rod to the adjustment out lined in this post I.E. 1/8 to1/4 clearance between throw out bearing and pressure plate fingers. The pedal should be held against the bumper on the pedal bracket by the return spring with the clearance at the TO Bearing. All with new nylon ball inserts "LUBED"

Ok , Well I have cut off the arm off the SB Z bar. I have also cut the fork arm off the bb Z bar. While doing this last week ,my cut off wheel came apart at about 20,000 rpm. A piece flew off and cut my arm open. My garage looks like a crime scene and I have to go to the emergency room at the local hospital. 4 inernal and 8 stitches on the outside my arm is ready to start again. My first " Chevelle battle wound" out side of minor cut.

Ok , Well I have cut off the arm off the SB Z bar. I have also cut the fork arm off the bb Z bar. While doing this last week ,my cut off wheel came apart at about 20,000 rpm. A piece flew off and cut my arm open. My garage looks like a crime scene and I have to go to the emergency room at the local hospital. 4 inernal and 8 stitches on the outside my arm is ready to start again. My first " Chevelle battle wound" out side of minor cut.

Round one to the chevelle:(:(

I was not going the wiz wheel route so I found a shop with a plasma cutter, did the JOB with no heat distortion and no flying parts.

I solved the problem on the 67 I was working on by using a SB Z-bar, no oil line problems on a Mitchell motor, and making a new clutch push rod from the pedal to the Chinese Z-bar. The dolt that worked on the car put the weld on Z-bar mount on the frame in a diffewrent loacation and the rod from the pedal to the Z-bar was to short.

Ok, I has been too hot to work in the garage down here in Florida this summer. But today I finally got my clutch linkage and pedal worked out. With all the advice from Herb and everyone else. I have about 1/8 to 1/4 before the TO bearing touches the PP fingers and plenty of adjustment. Thanks to all.