Hello, I would like to find out if there is a demand/need for POP reproductions. I have had a supply of NOS POP plates (unstamped) and have the old addressogragh machine that did the debossing. I dont have the vinyl GM tape, but might be able to still get that.
I can supply more info on request. Right now I am just seeing if a need for them is there. Thanks.

Oh buy, I can't wait to see how this one goes. To me the only reason anyone would repo a POP is to try and pass off a fake car as legit. But we will see what the masses think.

Well before this goes that direction I would only want to produce one for someone that has a build sheet and can verify the info. Tring to be as legit as posibile.

graemlins/clonk.gif Umm..No Thanks.

Agree with Matt...and as far as your own reasoning...again, WHY?? If you have a build sheet and Proof, then WHY? Why do you, why would you, want a FAKE POP??? :rolleyes:

Mike

One line thinking on something like this is, if you have a missing part on a car and are tring to bring it back to original the first choice is to buy NOS then whatever you might find.
For example if you bought a Chevelle and it was missing the SS hood, if you buy a NOS hood later you would not consider it a fake. You would say you are restoring it.
Same idea here. I would not want to "fake" a POP plate.
I understand this can be a touchy subject, any other input would be great. Thanks.

Not even close to same line of thinking :rolleyes: Sorry.

There is NO REASON to make or sell POP other than Fooling someone into believing it is Original to the car, which will make the car more valuable and this is a BIG PROBLEM right now in the hobby.. Fakes cars, Fake SS's Fake peidgrees.... This is beyond a touchy subject, it's Taboo! Right up there with Repro window stickers and Fake Build Sheets that are being made.. for what purpose? Do you go to a Show and display it? Tell the folks looking at the window sticker or the POP.."Oh, it's not real..it's not original, I just wanted it because it's cool!" Give me a break...Only one reason for this stuff..to Make money and that's on the part of the seller and the buyer...So you only sell to someone that has proof.. and how do you know they aren't Prooving it with a Fake docs from someone else.. the guy who makes the Fake Build sheets or the guy who Re-stamps the Blocks?? No way.. a true Chevelle Enthusiasts doesn't buy or sell Fake Documents to represent his car.. You either were lucky enough to get the originals or you were not.. end of story.

graemlins/sad.gif

Not sure what I can add to Mr.Crown's thoughts,except I agree 100%. There can only be one reason to fake docs like a pop, trim tag, or a build sheet, and thats to deceive a potential buyer. These docs aren't used for car show purposes. A repro window sticker is less of a scam than the others as long as it's only used to show people what options are in the car at a show. This hobby has enough scam artists stamping blocks, carbs, distributors, alts, transmissions etc, without someone advertising fake pop's on this site.

I can't imagine any honest Chevelle owner, thinking this is a good thing and buying one. I think you know who that leaves. The same guys selling fake COPO's, LS-6's and any other high dollar cars...

Now I'm gonna get back to the Boston/Yankee game and I don't want to here any more stupid ideas like this one.. graemlins/sad.gif graemlins/sad.gif

This is a public forum subject to public opinion and I am going to voice mine.

Reproductions of a POP in my opinion would be no different than trying to FAKE a VIN!! The only reason for this in the long run will come down to someone trying to misrepresent something thats not. This rates with restamping to make something it's not.

I belive Mike stated you were lucky enough to get the originals or not. So many people have whored this hobby to the point that it's not about Chevelles anymore, it's about trying to screw whoever you can, out of however much money you can.

I feel this should rate up there with VIN forgery, and should be turned into the states DMV and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law! You either have your cars documentation or not,

A fake is a fake and turns into a scam somewhere down the line. I hear every month about someone who got screwed/scamed because people who make fake VIN, window stickers, build sheets POP tags. These people prey on the uneducated and unknowing.


Rocky

Originally posted by 540ss:
Right now I am just seeing if a need for them is there. Thanks. If the need for them is there, it can already be met. In Hemmings Motor News, every month for as many years as I can remember, there is a guy in Florida who advertises them for sale, complete with original GM logo tape. So unless you're trying to offer them for a better price than he does ($275), you're not offering anything new or different graemlins/waving.gif

I guess Im not seeing the logic in your answer. From what you are saying if you do anything to your Chevelle after you buy it, it then becomes fake from that point on.
Again I am not in the Hobby to make POP's that are fake. I have owned Chevelles since 1980 and if I hade the chance to truly document my car with NOS doc's I would. You are right it does add value to the car, but so does putting an original "whatever" back on the car maybe trim or wheels or headlights they are just parts, a peice that the car rolled of the line with, but has been lost along the way.

Hey I need one .............NOT

Man you sure came to the wrong place to try to sell anything to make a fake Chevelle !

and besides ads are not allowed in the forums

Quote-

"if I hade the chance to truly document my car with NOS doc's I would. You are right it does add value to the car, but"............

I guess you want to truly document your car with Fake paper! The only reason to do this is to wring more money it's not worthy of bringing from that uneducated/unsuspecting/unknowing person who thinks he's getting something special with all this fake documentation.


Rocky

Great now I can document my 66ss LS6!

Have to agree that there's a very strong potential to fake a Super Sport or some other (perceived or not) high value or highly desirable car. There's enough superfical faking going on now to the point that a cloned SS is acceptable. A replacement *might* be acceptable if you had the original and it was bent or somehow was broken in two. Same with repro trim tags being sold commercially - if it's to replace one that's rusty, broken, or been sanded down a few times...maybe to make the car look nice.

I'm not sure you wouldn't get in hot water with GM since their BowTie logo is on each POP and you're selling a reproduction of that logo without a license to do so.

I dont know how to get the point across, but I will try. I am not saying to fake a POP I am talking about a reproduction of what your Chevelle should have.
What if you lost your title and had to reapply for a new one. The new one is not then a fake.
If Gm offered this service Im sure everyone one would be OK with it.
I do understand the potential to fake a non SS into something that can pass for the real thing. That is not what I want to do. I want to be able to reproduce the plate your car should have,
Thats it.
If I did not care about the hobby I would not be asking for opinions here. Thanks

I think the consciences is, whether your intentions are honorable or not, the potential for fraud in high. The pop in many cases is the only docs that a Chevelle owner has to prove the car is real.

Example: I am looking at an L-78 ElCamino which is advertised as No. matching car (which can be a re-stamp) and he has the pop as well as a few original reg. docs (which prove nothing). So I have to assume the pop documents the car as a real 375 h.p. 396. If I thought someone was able to fake the pop, how would I know the car is real? For $275 a scam artist can increase the value by plenty.

I agree have with the rest.

Are you a legitimate business licensed and insured to operate in all States? Do you have the know-how to spot a fake document supplier to you to perpetuate a fake? Its possible someone could come after you and name you in the fraud.
If Gm offered this service Im sure everyone one would be OK with it. But GM (Chevrolet) is the source of the vehicle and if they said it was so, then the hobby would recognize it. Trouble is they are never going to do that, so that point is not worth making.

Some years back I heard there was someone in Texas or some other state nearby that had faked some build sheets and fooled a lot of people. Had something to do with 1970 Chevelle L78's etc. So if someone was able to do that, they could snooker you and so I don't see how you could make this legit. Now if you had the old GM records like Pontiac Historical Services, then you would have something. But I note that they won't even venture into making P-O-P's. They provide copies of legitimate GM documents etc.

540ss (name)

I/we are not saying you would create a fake intentionally but you sure would be sooner or later unintentionally (probably sooner).

You can't compare it to adding an SS hood or any other SS option because they do not make a Malibu into a real SS but a POP is proof of an original SS so it would.

Also you can't compare it to a replacement title because the title is made from a permanent record on file by the DMV and you would have no such record, only the word of you're buyer or maybe some fake documentation.

I hope you can understand the big difference.

Thanks for all the input.
What do you guys think about this idea then. This is a hypothetical question because I would have to go through and talk to the pepole in charge of Team Chevelle and get the OK.
What if I stamed on a NOS POP something like your name, your TC member #, type of car, year, address ......for use as a key chain tag or a type of dog tag for your Chevelle.

It looks like the consensus is that no one here is interested in having something that did not come with there car when it was purchased. Sure, there are some that will/would take you up on your service, but you are obviously on the wrong website.

I would feel differently about a replacement POP if GM alone issued it. I asked Chevy dealers years ago about getting a replacement card (dealers would do it way back when the card had relevence for waranty work) but the cards were obsolete after about 1973 I think. They had either no means or no desire to stamp out new ones back in the eighties. Why would they (unless for lucrative faudulent purposes?)

Last words...

I would only bend on this idea, as well as window stickers and build sheets being reproduced and sold IF the maker/seller stamped in a clearly visible manner that this item is a REPRODUCTION and NOT ORIGINAL along with the manufacturer's name/company.... similar to the way they repro the orig. sales brochures ( on the inside cover it is stamped reproduction ) Still not sure why anyone would want a repro POP even if stamped as such, maybe only as a novelty.

Mike

Originally posted by 66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE:
Last words...

I would only bend on this idea, as well as window stickers and build sheets being reproduced and sold IF the maker/seller stamped in a clearly visible manner that this item is a REPRODUCTION and NOT ORIGINAL along with the manufacturer's name/company.... similar to the way they repro the orig. sales brochures ( on the inside cover it is stamped reproduction ) Still not sure why anyone would want a repro POP even if stamped as such, maybe only as a novelty.

Mike You took the words out of my mouth. I have been thinking all day how to approch this so that a fake pop could not be used. I think if it was stamped "Repro" and leave the bow tie logo off it , it could not be used to fool someone.
Still open for any more good ideas as I want to atleast recover my costs.

I have a reproduction window sticker that I affix to my side window at shows, but it is clearly marked on the left side that it is made by GM Restoration parts. Also it is laminated so I do not feel that I am trying to fool anyone. I have it on there to show what option were on my car when it left the factory. I would be willing also to buy off on reproduction POP's as long as they were cleary marked that they were a repro. But frankly I am not sure what purpose they would serve. Most casual car show spectators probably do not even know what the POP is, and there is not really any useful information that you can get from it just by glancing.

I had first posted this in the wrong thread, if someone did not look there, here it is;

I found a similar discussion eleswhere and they linked to another at FAKE TAGS

Here is a interesting snipet from the discussion..


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The best-known guy who reproduces trim tags and P-O-P's got a knuckle sandwich right on the Gold Judging field at Bloomington last June from an owner who had bought both from him (he had color-changed the car and needed fake tags to make it look correct); the judges called the trim tag as fake, the owner presented the P-O-P to back up the trim tag, and they called that as a fake too. The car was disqualified from judging (with no refund of the $400 judging fee), the owner demanded his money back he had paid to the tag-faker (who had "guaranteed they'd pass judging"), the tag-maker refused, and a fistfight ensued, right in front of everyone on the judging field. When the dust settled, the tag-maker left in an EMS unit, and the car owner was out about $1,000 between the judging fee and the fake tags. So much for repro trim tags and P-O-P's for judging.
:cry :nopity :nono: :skep: :banghead: :withstupid: :lolg:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning Corvette story above, it sounds like they both kind of got what they deserved!

I kind of like the keychain tag idea mentioned a few posts above. They would kind of look like a POP but would instead have personal information so the keys could be returned if lost and found by someone else.

I would like to do something with them. (The right thing) I know most of you know there are alot of pepole out there that are willing to make fakes.
It is just to easy to clone a SS without factory supporting hisorical info such as VIN #s. Like Pontiac does.
I have had a few emails in support of reproducing a POP but they dont want to post here, afraid of getting hammered.
Originaly I was suggesting a repo of a POP that had a build sheet to back it up. Ontop of that maybe a copy of the title and pictures of the vin that would have to match. If someone is willing to do all that they could easily find someone to make a fake for a car it does not belong on. Also what if the info had to pass a board of experts on this site to authenticate first.
Just looking at ways to legitimize the idea and make something that has "proof" behind it. If we cant do something about it to make an official peice it will only keep on being a problem as conterfit POPs are out there and are going to be made wheather we like it or not. Thanks again.

Fake documentation will always be floating around this hobby, sugar coating intentions as to why it should be ok to do still won't find any supporters of the Idea here! I still feel that producers of fake car documents should be dealt with hashly.


Rocky

540

How about stating your name, so we can have a serious discussion with a Person and not a USERNAME...or are you also afraid of being hammered? Just makes it more legit to address someone by name.

I still haven't seen a serious reason why someone would need this reproduction item other than the Novelty of it, and even then, as was said above.. the casual observer could never decode a POP anyway... so it seems easily remedied.. STAMP it as REPRODUCTION regardless of what proof they may offer as back up., b/c you can never be sure the proof is legit. Those that e-mailed you privately .. no surprise there, they are likely the same people who are busy finding out what the correct FONT is for their Re-stamp they plan to put on their Block. graemlins/clonk.gif

Mike Crown

66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE
Sorry about that, my name is Leroy. I thought my personal info was in my profile.
So far about 8 or 9 people have posted. It might be a consciences of some but that leaves thousands. I know everyone wont post but Im only getting the same 8 or 9 peoples view.
Look the old saying goes " if you cant beat em join em" I am saying "If you cant join em beat em at there own game"
POPs are going to be made. We as Chevelle owners should do somthing to have a "certified" (or whatever you want to call it) POP. If there was a board of experts here on the site that could verifiy documents then provide a certificate saying something like "The documents were determined to be correct and provides support in our opinion the right of the owner to have a POP reproduced." Then and only then should someone reproduce one, again base on expert opinion and only exactly the way your Chevelle rolled off the line, not a fake.
We should set up a board that is the official word and reconized as such. Otherwise the fakes are going to keep on being made (But Not by me). It would make money for this site and make the Chevelles value go up. This site should be the leader of this as it is the most respected Chevelle web site out here.
If we dont someone will.
I also want to stress I have not made even a single pop yet and will not unless something is done to certify them.

I love owning my chevelles
neither one of them have the docs anymore
nor do they have most the original equipment
neither one is for sale and hopefully never will be
they are not built for shows
they are built for me the way I like them to be
it is very cool that some people lose their minds on making them original
but the ones that I think are really neat are the fully documented original cars
not many of them and way more than I can afford
the ones I can not stand are the fakes that people swear are real
I know my ss is real but not original
and I know my convertable is a convertable may have been a high horse 327 or even a 307
original motor is gone and probably a honda now who knows
but I would never tell anyone that my ss was a 375 horse or the conv a high horse 327 because I just don't know and that is the way I think it should be
I do know that they were both original 4spd cars and both are original gauge and tach cars
but thats it and that is all that matters to me

I'd be concerned with liability if I were you. Not if, when - someone gets burned, they won't even consider that your intentions were good. $$$ make nice people do bad things. :( It scares me to think what the legal costs could be.

GM has also come down hard on people using their logos. If they were to accept you, the licensing fees could take a pretty big bite out of your profits. I think that even if you leave the bowtie off, and stamp REPRODUCTION on them you would still sell alot of them anyways. I don't think that anyone could touch you, as it would now be a novelty item. HTH.

Larry

You are correct, a handful of responses does not make it so and that is always my feeling with questions and answers given here, too many get one or two responses and take it as Gospel.. this site, is well attended, but by far, only a fraction of the Chevelle owners that are out there... many never turn a computer on. My advice... have the MOD. ( Rich ) move this post into Bench Racing and get a much better response rate. I am not positive that this is necessarily a TRIM TAG type question as much as a Discussion that needs to take place... but either way, you would likely get more responses there ;)

Mike

Leroy,

It looks like you are on the up and up on this at least from what can be ferreted out of the words and sometimes between the lines, but I have to side with Mike on this. I cannot see any value in a POP that is not original... none at all... unless somebody would want to pull a fast one. As much as you say you want to control it with legitimate documentation that is certified to be correct, I don't see how that could be guaranteed 100% of the time... and one more fraud laden car on the market is one to many. I think this is a hot potato that should be let go.

I have 2 Chevelles. One that is documented with the original POP and one that is not. I love the idea that I have the POP for the 67 but that does not mean I would want the services of the "POP guy" just so I could say that I have a POP for the 70 ...does not add value to my car if it is and says "repop" on it so why would I want it. Once again...I say walk away from this idea as it seems to me fraught(sp?) with danger or better yet "fraught with (potential)fraud"

I had not "spoken" up on this before because there were others that articulated my feelings already (and much better than I could anyway) so I decided why repeat the same thing. But, it appears you are looking for more opinions.

I will add that when it comes to issues related to this or the Chevelle hobby in general you couldn't get a better "opinion" than from Mike Crown... and I have never personally met him other than on this board and a few e-mails. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mike can walk to Canada from Ohio without getting his hat wet... but he is very knowledgeable and will respond with what is best for the hobby.

Good Luck...but let the idea go

Robert

I am very inclined to drop the idea. Mainly because of the bow tie logo issues.

Well if anyone is interested in a POP with your personal info instead of cars info let me know. I could send you 2 plates. 1 with your info and 1 blank for you to destroy and fill good to know that 2 less plates are out there.
Hope that did not turn into an ad.

Looks like someone is out there selling plates right now.

Check out this link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&rd=1&item=7929272920&category=34215

still says 0 bids
hope the a--hole can't sell it

I have read this thread with great interest. Here's my $.02 worth for anyone who cares.

I own two original 69 Chevelles, one SS and one Malibu, and all numbers matching. I don't have protecto-plates for either, but everything is correct on both. I do have a build sheet for the Malibu (high option). I personally will NEVER sell either car but would like to have a repop protecto-plates for both. No one knows how long folks will be out there able to repop these things, with either the materials or knowledge.

I would like to have original POP's to put with the owner's manuals; as it probably was when the cars were new. I'm sure right now, both of my missing POP's are either at the bottom of a land fill or stuffed in a shoe box in someones attic never to be seen again.

It is a matter of preservation for me, not deceit! Preservation in the sense that I am creating something for the record, not for fraudulent purposes. For anyone repopping one to use in a fraudulent representation of a car is shameful.

I know fraud is everywhere in this hobby (seen some COPO's for sale lately?), but, it has always been buyer-beware. If you are going to fork out major bucks for a muscle car, you either need to do all the homework or get someone who knows what to look for. This includes all casting numbers, dates, vin stamps of all applicable components (frame, engine, heater box). Dozens of numbers and information to consider.

This hobby has turned everyday muscle cars from the past into high value investments of today. I grew up watching my brothers of age enjoy muscle cars and beat the crap out of them at the same time, not many survived. I personally think there are more muscle cars today than were built in the late 60's and early 70's. Yep, I mean there are a ton of fakes out there, but that shouldn't mean you can't do a full restoration of an original car and restore the documentation as well.

Sorry about the rambling, but this hobby has gone off the deep end with pricing and the sharks will do whatever it takes to get the money out of your pockets. I still think I should be able to enjoy a little reproduction for my own benefit.

Thanks for this great forum, for what it is worth, I won't spend the $275 to get a reproduction POP, I have chosen instead to put used POP's from junk cars in my owner's manual jackets just for the appearance. I know the cars are real and original, that is all that matters.

Woj

69 SS, 69 Malibu, 69 SS Convertible (non-numbers), 69 Camaro (only one with a POP)