Hey guys, question. My 1970 chevelle is having a hard time cranking over, so investigating the issue. Before i go about replacing things, how much timing is too much and will make the engine hard to crank over? Looking at it now, it looks like i was trying to start it with about 20-22* initial timing. Would that be enough to make it difficult? If this isn't the solution, then looking into a new starter/flywheel because my starter is ancient and the flywheel is the smaller type, and possibly the battery. Just want to make the right purchase for the right fix, money is a little tight :) Thanks guys!

-Daniel

There are a lot of factors besides timing that can cause hard cranking but, yes, 20º initial can make it worse in some cases. A weak starter, weak battery, poor connections, poor ground, etc. can make it worse. A lot of guys run a bunch more initial without problem by using a high torque starter.

Yes ,a little too much.
Try 16/18 initial with a total of 36/38 all in by 3000 rpms.

I have 14 initial. Check www.setyourtiming.com

my starter is ancient

Key words there. Your timing is fine. My 496 runs 26*, and my 350 runs 30 initial. I would think that your "ancient" starter is a standard one? Heat soak, and older design make for a bad situation. If your connections are good, and your battery checks out, I would look at purchasing a high torque mini starter. Many here have good things to say about DB Electrical starters.

HERE (http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/Item.aspx?SKU=sdr0031%20/%206449-chevy%20c%20series&caSKU=sdr0031%20/%206449-chevy%20c%20series&caTitle=CHEVY%20TRUCK%20C%20K%20STARTER%2091%2092% 2093%2094%2095%2096%2097%2098%2099%2000%2001%20%20 6449%20SDR0031) is the link, and only $57 plus shipping.
http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/13000024/thumbs/13/tn4_891882.jpg

back that down to 16 or less a lot easier to turn the distributor before buying parts:thumbsup:

Yeah, i am going to tune it down and see where it goes from there, i typically run a lower number than that, i just noticed that was about where it was today, and figured that is probably a bit too much. I didn't know though at what point it started to make things more difficult. I will do some tuning, and go from there.

Next will be a new starter, the one listed above is exactly the type I was told to get, a starter for a mid 90's K series pickup. Thanks guys!

-Daniel

I run 24 degrees initial, and fires right up. I highly endorse the use of a DB starter. Even with my trunk mounted K-Mart battery, starting is no problemo.

You mention that normally you run less initial and just happen to notice it is up higher than normal? Might want to spot check the timing to make sure there isn't a distributor issue like weak weight springs or grooves worn in the pins that hold the weights etc. Could cause your timing to bounce around and cause hard starts or diesling.

I run 25* base/38* total and my stock size hi torque starter spins my 10 to 1 454 no problem..and thats with the repro spring ring battery cables too.

I had to add a msd start retard to mine. I use to repace the starter once a year. Now it cranks over even when it's hot. I do use a db electric pmgr starter also. But the retard box helped a bunch.

Yeah, i am going to tune it down and see where it goes from there

While turning it down, do you have the capability to put more mechanical back in to maintain your total timing? If not, you will not like how it runs.....

Yeah, i have the plate/spring kit to tune the mechanical advance. I will adjust it appropriately when i get things going.

-Daniel

I have a high torque mini starter. With repeated starts it would get weak in situations like a drive through window after driving a while. I wrapped my headers trying to test under hood temps. The wrap did not make any difference on engine temp and kept burning a sparkplug boot. But, after the wrap.....no more starter issues. How close your exhaust is to the starter can make a difference. Even at more than 3inches away, a heat shield or heat wrap can help.

Im running my locked out now with 37* with a stock starter and no problems.

There is no way to compare what some of you are running for initial timing to what someone else might be able to. Different DCR's will have those numbers all over the map.
Mike

I run 20 deg base/initial timing with approx 10.0 comp 396 with very mild cam (fairly hi cyl pressure-high cranking comp),stock type small diameter spring ring battery cables,stock hi trq gm stater with heat shield,along with a kinda weak R59 repop Delco Battery with only 550CCA and it allwayws starts fine even when hot.

Theres no way anyone can reliably answer this question of how much initial timing is too much.

That's totaly dependent on motor/compression/cam setup along with most importantly the cond of the entire starting & charging systems.

If your running a stock gm starter ensure it's a true hi trq unit that's fresh-not mult yrs old and or of unknown age etc, the alt is working -charging properly to rated amp/volt output,do you have a fresh preferably hi CCA battery,are all connections-grounds-etc clean of rust-corrosion & tight,are all required grounds present,so on & so forth.

Get all that right and you should be ok.

But just like the cooling system (esp radiator)the starting-charging system is also fairly often over looked on these 40 yrs old cars when people are doing partial & or full restos on them overlooking rebuilding the starter & alt while they are at it . At times also using a low CCA battery and or a battery thats been sitting arround 2-3 yrs while restoring the car just charging it up and thinking the battery will be ok when it may not be ok esp if re-using a tired starter with no heat shield and or a tired alt too collectivey reducing the starting system power/performance.

Scott

There is no way to compare what some of you are running for initial timing to what someone else might be able to. Different DCR's will have those numbers all over the map.
Mike

Well Im running 10.97:1 compression with a DCR of 10.02:1 Cranking pressure of 212.21psi

Its probably a combination of parts really. An old battery, and an old starter. The battery was sitting around for a few years, but put it on a charger. Then i took the newer battery out of my wifes ford escape, and still had the same issue. So with that, i'm thinking of finding a battery that i can borrow from someone, then if that doesn't fix the issues, i will go and replace the starter. Before that i'm making the sure all the grounds and everything else is hooked up. I already did the alternator with a nice new rebuilt napa unit.

-Daniel

Well Im running 10.97:1 compression with a DCR of 10.02:1 Cranking pressure of 212.21psi

Kevin,that is impressive,but you have to admit you're probably located in one of the better parts of the country as far as temperature is concerned.
Mike