As the title says I have an appointment on Friday at the dealership where I bought my crate engine. I am looking for a little helpful advice on what to say and do from anyone who has ever had to do the same. I know I could have gotten more for my money but that ship has sailed. I love the way the engine runs, it has good manners and good power but it smokes pretty bad and burns a quart of oil about every 200 miles. My car is very nice (1970 Elcamino SS396), there is nothing rigged it appears as stock except for there is no TCS and I have a MSD pro billet distributor. I am running the stock 569 low rise intake so I can run cowl induction and the stock chrome covers. I bought the flywheel from GM and the oil pan kit and everything else is perfect. I am looking to hear any tips or tricks to make sure I have as little trouble as possible getting it replaced. The guy at the parts counter I have known for years and he is pretty cool but I know he is not the final authority. Thanks

Dave

You should print out every thread on here where someone has had a problem with these motors burning oil. Most know that its the ring seal thats the problem and the fix is a TQ plate hone or re bore of the block.

A Qt every 200 miles? Nuff said...

You should print out every thread on here where someone has had a problem with these motors burning oil. Most know that its the ring seal thats the problem and the fix is a TQ plate hone or re bore of the block.

x2

Or some twit put the rings in upside down.

Plate hone, new rings, some head work for the valve seals the guy put on mine.

Geeze---lucky you---my engine was outta warrantee before I even started it.

That's about what I was burning with mine. The real issue with those motors (in addition to the rings seal) is how flimsy the block is. Be nice if you could upgrade to a 502, better block = better ring seal. Too bad they need an electric fuel pmp though.

I agree...they are sweet running motors.

This is why it's not that hard to find used .005 over pistons on sleazebay, a lot of folks buy the crate engines and immediately have 'em torque plate honed and rings replaced. I have 2 that were irrigation engines and developed other problems. Both torque plate honed perfectly at .005 over, even after a year's run time.

I bought the engine that I did because of the mechanical fuel pump provision. I told my buddy the parts guy that if I had to I would upgrade to the ZZ454 or the 502 and pay the difference. I hate to go in there on the offensive but it's not like I'm asking for something for nothing, just what I paid for. Thanks for the replies!

Dave

Isn't the ZZ454 the same short block?
T.C.

I believe the ZZ454 is indeed the same short block. I was just concerned about whether they would have engines available being that GM performance is defunct for now. I would really want to stick with the mechanical fuel pump.

My Carter Electric Fuel pump I can barely hear. Its the one in the GM Performance Parts Catalogue. It keeps up quite well. I have installed 3 ZZ502's and all three have worked flawless. If they will let you upgrade go for it.


Dave

Don't lose your temper or get excited. Remain calm and professional, and expect/demand the same from the dealer. On tactic I use when the other side is getting a little heated is to say "are you arguing with a customer?" Even when they are, no one wants to admit to this and they usually settle down.

Come at your problem from this angle: Warranties are intended to provide that materials and workmanship meet the intended performance and life of the product in it's intended applications, and to provide an assurance that that the customer's expectations will be met.. If it's true that these engine have a history of using oil, then that is not what the manufacturer intended nor does it meet your expectations.

Hold firm on what you want. Don't back down too soon.

I am definitely going to be very nice and very tactful when I go in. I told the parts guy (my friend) that I am not asking for a handout, just what I paid for. I am willing to work with them a little, but I'm not going to waste too much time hanging parts when the rings are a known issue.

Dave

print this picture out and hand it to them, its my 1000-2000mile old 454HO motor...look at the bore distortion by each headbolt. The rings were never even touching the cyl wall by each bolt, as its shiny and the rings still have the like-new cond. Huge leak path.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/glazed.jpg?t=1239103127

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/jugsoil.jpg?t=1239103068

Vince, it's amazing how the lower tension rings generate so much less pressure against the cylinder wall, crosshatch marks look like there's never been rings against 'em. I'm sure stepping up to standards on mine, though. The one I tore down a couple of days ago looks a lot like yours, probably has about as much run time. Your pics are a perfect illustration why no performance engine should be assembled with a torque plate hone!

Gary, in my experience, its not so much the rings as it is the distortion. I had mine plate-hone, and went back with a new set of rings, same type, and reduced oil consumption by ~80%, to like a qt maybe every 800-1000 miles. Still some oil on the threads of the plugs, and back of intake valves are crudy. My machinist only took about .0005 out for the plate hone, really needed alot more, like ~.004, but he didnt want to open it up that far for obvious reasons.

Only choice I see with these motors is do what I did with a minimal hone/re-ring, or bore oversize and plate hone. But that creates 2 problems, basically you are noy paying to rebuild a "new" motor, and your making a flimsy casting even thinner. If they offer a .005 piston, that maybe a good option, just plate hone the piston to fit if possible.

AFAIK, no other rings available for the HO pistons, they use a shallow oil ring:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/oil.jpg?t=1239104201

At the risk of offending some, the 454HO motor is a disaster...thin cyl walls, VERY thin decks that start stripping head bolts after several on/off cycle.

At the risk of offending some, the 454HO motor is a disaster...thin cyl walls, VERY thin decks that start stripping head bolts after several on/off cycle.

No offense, I just wish I had known this before I bought one 6 years ago. That is how long mine has been sitting in the garage waiting for a vehicle to go into. I did mount it into a pickup frame and fire it up for about 10 minutes total run time a couple years ago. Then it went back on the engine stand because the truck got scrapped. And now I have a different truck I was going to put it in, but I'm scared to because of all the oil burning stories here.

So what should someone do with a practically zero run-time 454HO that is 6 years old and out of warrantee? I doubt I could sell it for even half of what I paid for it. And to bore and hone with new pistons and rings would mean spending more money on a questionable foundation. I hate these catch-22's. :sad:

Greg, if you have the motor already, you may consider taking it apart and have the plate-hone done with new rings, or just go oversize and get some compression while your at it. Only pistons I found on Summit that were .005 over were JE's at 800.00 - I'll pass on that.

The bad thing is that all of this seems very grim. I would be very satisfied if they could just get it to stop burning the oil. It stinks because here we are getting ready to hit the car show season. I plan on doing 2 legs of the power tour so I have to get this squared away. Do the 502's have this problem?

Dave

The 502 HO's a few of the older ones had that problem too, the ZZ502's I have had no issues with.

Dave

From what the engine guy told me ( I did not personally get to see as I was attending my Dad's funeral), my engine looked pretty much like Vince's. But after he went thru it, it has not used a drop since. He did the engine in July 07 when it had 2600 miles on it.
I now have 5200 on the engine---not a drop is missing.
Plate hone
New rings
new valve seals

Bryan...you were able to have it honed without changing pistons? Do you know did they use teflon seals and another set of stock rings? Thanks

Dave

Doug (the builder) claimed the block was just about perfect.
He did hone it. I believe he used Speed Pro rings
Cannot be absolutely positive with all he did, as I was fighting with GMPP warrantee people, driving to Vegas for my dad's funeral, and dropped my fairly new Ford Ranger at a Lincoln Dealer to fix my damn brakes for the 3rd time in 90 days. Told the Lincoln Service guy to fix it or shove it:mad::mad:.

Anyway-----Kudos to Signiture Lincoln Mercury in Las Vegas----my lil red Ranger has not given me an issue at all since.

****UPDATE****


It looks like my engine is going to get warrantied. I could not have been happier about how I was treated. The techs were very nice and also impressed with the Elcamino. I got a call from the guy working on it and said one cylinder had 20% leakdown and another had 14% while one had 5%(one cyl was good) and the rest had around 10%. Keep in mind the engine only has 3200 miles on it. I still have to pull the engine out and I am out all of my fluids and such but what are you gonna do?

I met an interesting old guy at the dealership, he is probably in his late 70's and was there is a 85 Monte SS that he bought new for around $13k in 1985. It had the steel wheels (like S-10's) on it. The odometer had 50K and the car looked like it is in showroom condition. He says people follow him around trying to buy it so he has to keep it in the garage. He had some pretty cool stories and recounted how he saw it for sale in the window of Courtesy Chevrolet in 1985 and stopped in and bought it.

Dave

So are they replacing the 454 or are you getting a 502?
T.C.

So far I am just getting another 454. The 502 would be nice and I will angle for that depending on their supply of 454's.

They ordered my new 454 today. It is kind of bittersweet though. I know that I am getting my engine replaced but it is not "free". I have to do all of the labor and pay for my lost fluids and gaskets. I will be down a minimum of $100 but them's the breaks. If I had paid to have it installed at a authorized GM dealer then they would cover it all (whopee) but it would have probably cost me $1500 to have it put in. Oh well, I'll keep you all updated and cross your fingers for me that this one is good.

Dave

Dave, please keep us updated on the new motor. I'm very curious to see if anything was done to prevent oil consumption on the new motors.

They ordered my new 454 today. It is kind of bittersweet though. I know that I am getting my engine replaced but it is not "free". I have to do all of the labor and pay for my lost fluids and gaskets. I will be down a minimum of $100 but them's the breaks. If I had paid to have it installed at a authorized GM dealer then they would cover it all (whopee) but it would have probably cost me $1500 to have it put in. Oh well, I'll keep you all updated and cross your fingers for me that this one is good.

Dave

Dave. Glad to see they are honoring the warranty.. For argument sake. I think I'd have them do a leak down test before I drove away with the "new" engine..

Good luck..

Working at a dealership keeping a cool head and being prepared is the best approched give them all the documents you were given here, I would ask them to inspect the cyinders with a borescope most dealers have them and it could give you a good idea what the inside of the cylinders look like so tear down might not be needed just remember the dealer has to play be the rules of the manufacture, From experance if you start getting nasty / demanding etc you will get shut down. Good luck !

fwiw, my 454HO showed 4% leakdown, but still burned an excessive amount of oil.

fwiw, my 454HO showed 4% leakdown, but still burned an excessive amount of oil.

I had that discussion with the mechanic. He said if it were up to him he would warranty it without the leak down test since it would not actually prove whether the oil rings were bad or not. I really have my finger crossed because I will be on my 3rd engine since Chevelleabration last year and I definitely don't want to go for number 4.

I did finally get the new engine yesterday afternoon. According to the data plate on the side of the engine is was built 03/2009. The old engine was built in 2007. The block is a totally different casting number than the old one. It does give me hope that this one won't smoke. As bad as it sounds at this point I would be tickled to death if this one will just run without smoking or using a ton of oil. I will keep you all posted...

Will running it on an an engine stand first help? Let it run for a while to see if it smokes.

Engine is in the car, I hate having to drop in a engine by myself. II especially hate the part where you have it about 5 feet in the air above the core support. I have the engine in, the bolts through the mounts, the headers on, and the bell housing and transmission in. I need to do the rest tomorrow morning. I hope to drive it tomorrow.

I'm curious after reading through all the replies....what would GM do if you just wanted your money back to build(or have built), your own engine or buy one that's already done?

Personally I think money would be better spent on an engine built by someone other than GM, especially after looking at the prices.

I hope all goes well for you, good luck.

After driving it 150 miles I am down almost a quart of oil. I have serious doubt that this engine is any different than the one I took out. I am gonna give it a chance but I have built several engines myself and none of them ever used more than a quart between oil changes. Also there is still noticeable smoke from the tailpipes. I really hope this engine gets a little better as it breaks in but I am not holding my breath. FYI a older friend of mine who worked at a Chevrolet dealership back in the 70's said he once diluted some Comet scrub powder in some water and poured it down the carburetor. It stopped a engine with glazed cylinders from smoking. Wow I don't think I could bring myself to do that. He did tell me not to try it, I won't. Does sound kind of crazy but if the engine is screwed up anyway who cares?
If I have to take this engine out again I am going to try and get a refund. I just refuse to trust one of those engines for a third time if this one does not break in. The only other thing I would be slightly interested in is if they paid to fix it and paid me for my labor/fluids(I doubt that though). I guess a 502 would be nice but I really hate to lose the mechanical fuel pump. I have my fingers crossed for now.

Dave

After driving it 150 miles I am down almost a quart of oil. I have serious doubt that this engine is any different than the one I took out. I am gonna give it a chance but I have built several engines myself and none of them ever used more than a quart between oil changes. Also there is still noticeable smoke from the tailpipes. I really hope this engine gets a little better as it breaks in but I am not holding my breath. FYI a older friend of mine who worked at a Chevrolet dealership back in the 70's said he once diluted some Comet scrub powder in some water and poured it down the carburetor. It stopped a engine with glazed cylinders from smoking. Wow I don't think I could bring myself to do that. He did tell me not to try it, I won't. Does sound kind of crazy but if the engine is screwed up anyway who cares?
If I have to take this engine out again I am going to try and get a refund. I just refuse to trust one of those engines for a third time if this one does not break in. The only other thing I would be slightly interested in is if they paid to fix it and paid me for my labor/fluids(I doubt that though). I guess a 502 would be nice but I really hate to lose the mechanical fuel pump. I have my fingers crossed for now.

Dave

Bon Ami cleaning powder. Comet is TOO abrasive...

DAVE,1st i want to say i am very sorry to hear that your new motor is sucking oil right from the get go,its not looking good,thats for sure.

Does it have a lot of blowby when you remove the pcv valve when at idle with motor hot?

What wt /grade oil are you runnng?

Since you have 150 miles on it go out and run it hard a few times to see if loading the motor will get the rings to seat.

Also,send me your email address in a PM so i can send send you some "very interesting" info i researeched/compiled with requards to the validity of BoNami helping to seat rings or not .

I compiled this info approx 6 month ago from fellow t/chevelle members that posted on it here in this site along with a few other people from other automotive oriented sites (a few from a Pontiac perf site )that also had 1st hand experience with this supposed BoNami ring seal trick.

This info includes what thier 1st hand experiences/feed back was on the BoNami ring sealing subject/myth thats been arround for over 50-60 yrs that i can see from digging into this .

I think this BoNami myth thats been arround for alomost 60yrs would be a good subject/show for the MYTHBUSTERS to do a piece/show on since they are always asking their viewers for more things/subject matter to use for upcomming shows. Lord knows in the past have seen the Mythbusters do much stupider/wastefull things then this so i may send this idea to them for a show. In the past they seemd to be very interested in automotive type subjects/myths when i had seen them do a few automotive related shows so you never know,they may just bite on it.

Scott

Try some very aggressive acceleration and deceleration bursts after full warm up hopefully the cylinders have not burnished and this will help. Otherwise it is the same old story...

I just re ringed my 502HO with standard tension rings. I have about 150 miles on it since and I can see a slight drop on the dipstick. Maybe a 1/5 of a qt. I do notice a lot less oil vapor in the engine when I removed a valve cover to readjust a valve. Before the re ring there was a lot of vapor from blowby.

My pipes were extremely greasy form the oil consumption but so far the visible smoke is 95% improved and I am hoping it will improve further. Still, they use very shallow oil rings which limits the tension even on what they call a standard tension ring.

I HATE.....repeat HATE having to use an electric pump.

Why do any of us continue to buy these garbage motors? DOes Mopar or Ford have these issues with theirs? This has been going on for so long. My 502 is from around 1995. Still they can't resolve it?

Good luck with your situation.

DAVE,1st i want to say i am very sorry to hear that your new motor is sucking oil right from the get go,its not looking good,thats for sure.

Does it have a lot of blowby when you remove the pcv valve when at idle with motor hot?

What wt /grade oil are you runnng?

Since you have 150 miles on it go out and run it hard a few times to see if loading the motor will get the rings to seat.

Also,send me your email address in a PM so i can send send you some "very interesting" info i researeched/compiled with requards to the validity of BoNami helping to seat rings or not .

I compiled this info approx 6 month ago from fellow t/chevelle members that posted on it here in this site along with a few other people from other automotive oriented sites (a few from a Pontiac perf site )that also had 1st hand experience with this supposed BoNami ring seal trick.

This info includes what thier 1st hand experiences/feed back was on the BoNami ring sealing subject/myth thats been arround for over 50-60 yrs that i can see from digging into this .

I think this BoNami myth thats been arround for alomost 60yrs would be a good subject/show for the MYTHBUSTERS to do a piece/show on since they are always asking their viewers for more things/subject matter to use for upcomming shows. Lord knows in the past have seen the Mythbusters do much stupider/wastefull things then this so i may send this idea to them for a show. In the past they seemd to be very interested in automotive type subjects/myths when i had seen them do a few automotive related shows so you never know,they may just bite on it.

Scott



I am running 10W40 oil. I could not bring myself to run the suggested 5w30 which would probably run out the tailpipes. I actually laughed at my friend when he told me about the comet but what did he have to lose when he did it? He actually saved himself some work. It would seem like you would have to run quite a bit through there. I have made a few hard acceleration runs but since I switched to a vacuum secondary carb I do not have the secondaries dialed in exactly (850vac sec from a zz502). It is either that or something else I have not figured out as it pulls like a freight train when the secondaries open. Anyhow I will not put another crate engine in there. If it were to get warrantied again it would be for sale immediately. Oh well live and learn.

Dave

Sorry to hear Dave. The problem is, folks like me dont complain enough or at all. GM just takes care of the people they need to, and not change the build program of the 454HO. Most folks like me dont even know they have a problem till it too late.

I'd call the dealer again, or GM, and tell them you need a different motor or your money back. This is also costing you money in gaskets, oil, antifreeze, you labor, etc.

DAVE,1st i want to say i am very sorry to hear that your new motor is sucking oil right from the get go,its not looking good,thats for sure.

Does it have a lot of blowby when you remove the pcv valve when at idle with motor hot?

What wt /grade oil are you runnng?

Since you have 150 miles on it go out and run it hard a few times to see if loading the motor will get the rings to seat.

Also,send me your email address in a PM so i can send send you some "very interesting" info i researeched/compiled with requards to the validity of BoNami helping to seat rings or not .

I compiled this info approx 6 month ago from fellow t/chevelle members that posted on it here in this site along with a few other people from other automotive oriented sites (a few from a Pontiac perf site )that also had 1st hand experience with this supposed BoNami ring seal trick.

This info includes what thier 1st hand experiences/feed back was on the BoNami ring sealing subject/myth thats been arround for over 50-60 yrs that i can see from digging into this .

I think this BoNami myth thats been arround for alomost 60yrs would be a good subject/show for the MYTHBUSTERS to do a piece/show on since they are always asking their viewers for more things/subject matter to use for upcomming shows. Lord knows in the past have seen the Mythbusters do much stupider/wastefull things then this so i may send this idea to them for a show. In the past they seemd to be very interested in automotive type subjects/myths when i had seen them do a few automotive related shows so you never know,they may just bite on it.

Scott

''Ajax'' (the foaming cleanser) ???...just kidding...

Might give this a shot----
I noticed that on my 454ho, the valley pan had a couple of tabs that prevented the intake from seating correctly.
Not saying that this will help---but might not hurt----I cut the center two retaining tabs from the shield, and the intake seated much better.

But---still needed a hone and new rings (factory installed upside down)----the engine guy also machined the heads for different seals.

Since this guy worked on the engine----dipstick has shown absolutely no sign of oil loss in 2500+miles and 2 years.

I noticed the comment about sooty tailpipes from someone,
my tailpipes were actually dripping oil-----while the engine was out (for a couple of months) the mufflers leaked oil as well.
This was on a 59 Chevy-----looooong and curvy exhaust system

Bryan, I don't have the valley pan in my engine. I am running the stock 569 low rise intake so all of my cowl induction stuff hooks up properly. I am gonna run it for a while and see what happens. I am a little curious about the bonami trick if the oil use does not slow down. The thing is I wanted a easy drop in and go engine but now all of this crap. If it does not improve I see a 496 in my future.

Dave,you have nothing to loose trying the Bonami trick but beware of this .

Dont try the Bonami trick untill you get all done with any dealings with GM when it comes to getting some money back etc.

I suggest that because GM may pull an oil sample and if they find any trace Bonami clenser/polish in the oil they will very likely deny your claim for any reason they can find.

But again you have nothing to loose trying it after GM is done dealing with your motor.

So if you decide to try it let me/all of us know what the result is so i can add you rexperience to all the info i have on file with respect to the 50+ yrs of the BoNami story i have compiled. That info has people that have had 1st hand experience with it over all those yrs that worked for GM,other car mfg's,heavy equipment mfg's & repiar-service people,engine machienst-builder,etc that state they used the Bonami trick to correct/actually fix-seat rings as some put it in " A PROBLEM CHILD" or " PROBLEM CHILDREN" at times when rings would not seat in new or rblt gas, diesel ,Harley's,motors mfg in Engalnd(think it was Land Rover many yrs back),and even old classic radial aircraft motors.

Gee,with all those docemented 1st hand success stories with the Bonami over the yrs there has to be some validity to it.

But when i have actually contacted some of the people with the BoNami success stories the one question noene of them could answer with 100% certanty is which of the 2 BoNami cleaning /polishing products curerently on the market did they use and they arent sure.

But one good thing is with all the research i did on that subject here in tam chevelle & on the net too is not one person that had evere tried the BoNami trick said it damaged the motor in any way . There were also others that said the motors had a long service life post BoNami tratment better seating the rings for better oil control/reduced oil consumption which was a good thing.

But if you have a situation like Vince had with what looked to be a motor that want honed with a trq plate and the rings didnt seem to be touching the cyl's all the way arround i dont think the BoNami with fix that situation. But again it cant hurt to try it for $3 the BoNami costs esp since nobody has stated it damaged a motor but of course if you put half a container of Bonamin in a motor it would likely hurt it. On avg they 1.5-2 tespoons of BoNami down the intake/carb either dry or a few did it mixed with some water to also clean carbon from combustion chambers at the same time and thats it.

Scott

take it out and beat on it a little. run it from 2500 to 5500 at 3/4 throttle, letting it coast down in between. do this like 20 times. see if it gets any better.

meanwhile, back to the dealer and establish a written case with a trackable ticket number.

The saga continues...I have to drop my car off on Monday for the dealer to look over it again and run the tests etc. I know the parts guy and we are friendly and I have maintained a good attitude and have never gotten angry or rude. They are very apologetic about the whole situation and are happy to check it out again. I told the parts guy that I will not install another 454HO into my car. I offered the options of #1 A full refund #2 I remove the engine and it is repaired at a machine shop at GM's expense which I guess you could consider a partial refund #3 I would accept a ZZ502 as compensation for all of my time and trouble (good luck on this one) .
I guess what happens when I drop the car off is that they call the GM Performance rep and he tells the dealership what tests to run. I guess maybe they will do a compression test and a leak down test. The only test they really need to run is the start the car and watch it smoke test. It smokes at idle, when you rev it, and when you drive it. The only time it does not smoke is when the thing is shut off.
I will keep you all updated on what happens. And Scott I really wanted to try the Bonami trick but since I still have a warranty and I am out some serious coin so I did not wanna risk anything. I have to get this thing checked out and back by Tuesday night so I can get it ready for CB09. Above all I wish that someone at GM would look at the return rate of these engines and do something. I think I can build a nice 496 for $6000 and I think that is exactly what is going to happen if I get my money back.

Dave

Also another thought is that the first time they decided to warranty the engine I had to wait a month to get the next one. Tick, tick, tick time off of my warranty and it expires July 15th so time is definitely of the essence.

Good luck Dave...at least they are looking into it. You could also go with a 502HO since its the same shortblock as the ZZ502. You should print that picture out that I posted with the distorted cylinder bores of my 454HO, and give it to the dealer/warranty rep., would probably do more to help the cause of the 454HO than anything else. Wait, GM is going bankrupt...454HO's are probably the last thing on GM's mind.

Vince I will pass the link on to the rep if nothing else. No one ever came in person from GM performance to check my engine the dealership did all of the transactions over the telephone. I am going on 2 legs of the power tour which is sponsored by GM performance. I will rattle their cages a little bit.

Dave,you have nothing to loose trying the Bonami trick...

But when i have actually contacted some of the people with the BoNami success stories the one question noene of them could answer with 100% certanty is which of the 2 BoNami cleaning /polishing products curerently on the market did they use and they arent sure....



Scott

I did a little experiment with Bon Ami. I got a couple of squares of cheap ceramic tiles black color. I used each of the Bon Amis--the yellow container "cleaning powder" and the gold container "cleanser". Used with a damp sponge and mild scrubbing pressure, neither left any scratches on the tile finish. Ceramic tile is probably harder than most machined cast iron surfaces, and maybe harder than chrome rings faces. The Bon Ami containers say don't use on glass, mirrors, and windshields, but I've used it (carefully) that way many times.

This could be an interesting experiment for someone who has the facilities--like one of our performance engine builders--to prepare some test specimens and gather some data. I'd be surprised if this hasn't been done at one time or another already, maybe 50-60 years ago. who knows?

My $0.02

Is there anyone out there that hasn't had an oil consumption problem with there 454HO or are they all screwed? I'm in the same boat as Greg as I have a 0 mile, brand new engine that is 7 years old. I was going to finally drop it in my 67SS next week but saw this thread and have to wonder if I don't just have it honed and re-ringed now or just sell it and invest in a new engine.

Tough call Randy. I'm sure there's something about taking apart a brand-new motor that doesnt sit well with you. Depending on how easy it is to take the motor back out, you can always give it a shot as is. My trans is a stick, and between that and the oversize oil pan, TKO trans, its a total PIA to pull the motor out. I've seen automatic guys have there motor out in an hr or 2.
You could start a thread asking "sucessful 454HO motors"...granted, most 454HO posts are b/c of a negative experience. Maybe alot of good HO motors out....I doubt it though :D

Randy,
To get my engine out of my freshly restored 59 was a pain in the hiney.
(also a TKO car)

But---gotta say, after the honing, new rings and getting the heads machined for better seals----I have not used a drop of oil in 3000mi.

My block was actually in pretty good shape-----factory installed upside-down rings was probably the biggest portion of my problem.

Also---if yours is an unmolested 454HO, might want to pull the intake and trim the valley tabs from the center positions-----those tabs in the center would not allow my intake to seat and created one hell of a vacuum leak. Could be part of the oil consumption issue as well.

When I took my engine in, and he took it apart, he told me that my cylinders were full of oil as well.

Jj/65,send me your email in a pm because i have something very interesting for you to read on the BoNami since you seem interested in it.

Bet you you would ejnoy reading it,takes maybe 5-10 mins to read & there's alot more to the BoNami story when it comes to this ring sealing myth then people think there is which i compiled from mult sources into 1 BoNami file.

Scott

You're right Vince. I'm not crazy about opening it up unless I absolutely have too. I think your idea of starting a new thread is a good one so I'll try that today. I have a TH400 auto in mine with original exhaust and yes it is easier to yank so I might just go ahead and install. Before I do I'll take off the intake as you suggested Bryan to trim the valley tabs if necessary.
If I can't find one install in Team Chevelle this week that worked as it should then I may change my mind and just bite the bullet and send it into the shop for rebuild! Thanks for your help guys.

There is a couple of guys somewhat local to me that have 454HO's, and they say they have no issues. But, these cars see maybe a couple of hundre miles a yr, so even if they had an issue, I don't think they would know. I put 2-3k a yr on mine, so I could see the oil consumption pretty quick.

And really, why would you even pull a dipstick to check your oil level....you have no reason to for the most part. I knew I had a problem when sitting at a traffic light and a cloud of smoke blew me. After that, dipstick city for me.

Randy,have you ever thought or fiding someone that could test fire it for you on an engine test stand or loacal dyno for a small fee to load the motor & breakin it in to see if it smoked?

I suggest that because it seems the guys here in t/chevelle that had brand new oil sucking 454 ho crate motors had bad oil smoking from exhaust right from the start. They would only get approx 100-150 miles perf qt oil which i would think would be very noticeable smoke wise from exhaust even on a fairly short test run if that was the case.

And if it were on a dyno they could load the motor fairly hard and let it run at like 3k rpm for 1-1.5 hrs straight with light 5w-30 or even 10w-30 oil to see if it would eat some oil.

That would be worth a few hundred bucks to me if it showed the motor smoked out of the box to avoid going thru all the hastle of installing & hooking all things up just to find its an oil hog like the majority of the other 454 ho's out there . Then having to unhook and pull it back out again for trq plate hone & re-ring along with doing mods to guides for better v-seals too.

Right now all you would have to do is attach it to an engine stand and load into a truck to have it test fired someplace that could do it for you. Thats what i would be looking into if i were in your shoes kmowing up front many of the crate motors like you have have had oil eating issues unless your really tight on $ and just cant go that route .

Scott

Here's another question that I will throw out there: If I were to have the block re-honed would I need new pistons? I would think the answer is yes since the bore diameter would have to be near out of service specs. If the engine needed new pistons I would bump it up to 10 to 1 compression and I would have the valve spring pockets machined as well as having the heads drilled and tapped for 7/16 screw in studs and adjustable valve train. With those mods the engine would perform much better. I don't think I am gonna go down that road unless I am forced to though.

I have installed 3 ZZ502's, all 3 have worked mint. Insist thats all you want even if you have to put out a few $'s. All 3 of them have went mid to high 11's in Chevelles. They all have been running for over 5-6 years without a freshen up even. 2 of them are stock out of the box, the other was a long block and he upgraded it with a Performer RPM and a 850 HO double pumper.

Dave

That is exactly what I was thinking Dave. When I dropped off the car this afternoon the service writer told me "They ought to give you a 502 for your trouble" I could not agree more. I have a total lack of confidence in the 454HO engine as of now. I am waiting to hear something tomorrow for the dealership. The positive thing about this is that the guys at the dealership could not be nicer about all of this. I hope they are nice when it comes to replacing/upgrading it.

Scott - I spoke to a local highperformance shop here in Calgary today about having them test fire it as you suggested. For a mere $700.00 he said he would be happy too but not for at least a couple of months! :noway: Don't seem to have as many options here in Canada as you might have in NY and the summer is short so I've decided that I'll just take my chances and drop her in as is. If she smokes, I'll put her on the "PATCH" next winter and have her redone.:D

Car is going back this morning. I hope they get their tests done sine I have to be in Dayton for the Power Tour on Wednesday.

Jeez Dave. I'd pull it and dump in their lobby. This is taking way too long. You are far too patient.

I am being nice, however, if I am my normal self what will that get me? LOL. I am hoping that a calm head and a lot of patience will prevail.

Working at a dealership keeping a cool head and being prepared is the best approched give them all the documents you were given here, I would ask them to inspect the cyinders with a borescope most dealers have them and it could give you a good idea what the inside of the cylinders look like so tear down might not be needed just remember the dealer has to play be the rules of the manufacture, From experance if you start getting nasty / demanding etc you will get shut down. Good luck !

Ive had the other when getting things warantied,,, Ive gone in with a level head and been nice and gotten no were,, Only after a blew my top and the large vain started poping out of my arm did the service manager come take care of the problem...MAKE sure you take in a pile of paperwork and let the one with a lawyers name stick out a bit,,, and a copy of yer states complaint form for auto repair facilities ,, and a copy of the beter buisness complaint form....maybee a copy of that cities chamber of comerce coplaint form too........ Just set em on the counter, before you start yer conversation...

Here's another question that I will throw out there: If I were to have the block re-honed would I need new pistons? I would think the answer is yes since the bore diameter would have to be near out of service specs. If the engine needed new pistons I would bump it up to 10 to 1 compression and I would have the valve spring pockets machined as well as having the heads drilled and tapped for 7/16 screw in studs and adjustable valve train. With those mods the engine would perform much better. I don't think I am gonna go down that road unless I am forced to though.

I think I mentioned earlier-----I got away with just rings, light hone, and some head machining for better seals. (I believe it was plate honed as well) The builder guy mentioned that the block was near perfect so not a lot was necessary. But upside down rings-----monkees at GMPP on the assy line. Not just one or two cylinders----but all eight!!!!:mad:

Dave, I appreciate your persistence...its idiots like me that arent vocal enough, which is part of the reason this is even happening still.

After driving it 150 miles I am down almost a quart of oil. I have serious doubt that this engine is any different than the one I took out. I am gonna give it a chance but I have built several engines myself and none of them ever used more than a quart between oil changes. Also there is still noticeable smoke from the tailpipes. I really hope this engine gets a little better as it breaks in but I am not holding my breath. FYI a older friend of mine who worked at a Chevrolet dealership back in the 70's said he once diluted some Comet scrub powder in some water and poured it down the carburetor. It stopped a engine with glazed cylinders from smoking. Wow I don't think I could bring myself to do that. He did tell me not to try it, I won't. Does sound kind of crazy but if the engine is screwed up anyway who cares?
If I have to take this engine out again I am going to try and get a refund. I just refuse to trust one of those engines for a third time if this one does not break in. The only other thing I would be slightly interested in is if they paid to fix it and paid me for my labor/fluids(I doubt that though). I guess a 502 would be nice but I really hate to lose the mechanical fuel pump. I have my fingers crossed for now.

Dave

I am here to tell you that Comet works. I did it years ago...I used Bonami (Sp?) but the process is the same. I should add I did not dilute it. I stuck some cleanser in one of those Mustard / Katsup squeeze bottles you see in the restaurants. I removed the plugs and blew in a GOOD couple of puffs in. Each cylinder got a GOOD dose cause I was PISSED big time about the new engine burning oil.

I was driving the car to "Kollage" on the interstate mostly...30 miles each way every day. The first time I started it after the dosing it had a tough time spinning over but it did start. I dunno how long the stuff stayed in the cyls and I was in a mood that if it croaked then so be it. It just ran and it seated the rings. It is too far in the past to say for sure what the time was before the rings shaped up and what the consumption was thereafter but I will say the results were what I wanted. The engine ran perfectly for years after that "ifx"

Just to clarify the engine was a 327 L-79 motor that came in a crate. I took it to the local engine shop...he honed it and chucked in new rings with the old pistons that had possibly 10 K miles at the time. FWIW and based on some of what I saw as far as pictures in this post my cyl walls looked like they had a good solid consistent hone job. There just were issues with the rings.

Oman,thanks alot for that story on the Bonami,i added your experience with it to a file i am keeping on the Bonami myth which is looking more to be fact then myth.

I have approx 10-15 people that have all had exp lke you with the Bonami working to fix iffy ring seal with newly rblt and motors, rblt motors with some miles on them ,brand new cars in 50's-60's-80's too using lke a qt oil every 200-300miles .

Nonbody ever said the Bonami damaged a motor anywhere too which isa good thing.

The stories i have compiled start in the 50's and go right up thru to today.

But like you said the cyls must be in decent cond to begin with and not like the pics on the 454HO GM crate motor that had approx 1/4 qt oil in each hole,that was nasty for sure and no amount of BoNami was going to fix that mess.

Scott

This may sound stupid, but the comet/bonami sounds like a relatively fine abrasive scrubbing the cylinder walls and consequently helping seat the rings...

I bet Arm and Hammer would do something similar.

I may go into the garage and do some experiments on my El GasLab "oil-eater"....Scott...send me that PM ;-)

Oman,thanks alot for that story on the Bonami,i added your experience with it to a file i am keeping on the Bonami myth which is looking more to be fact then myth.

I have approx 10-15 people that have all had exp lke you with the Bonami working to fix iffy ring seal with newly rblt and motors, rblt motors with some miles on them ,brand new cars in 50's-60's-80's too using lke a qt oil every 200-300miles .

Nonbody ever said the Bonami damaged a motor anywhere too which isa good thing.

The stories i have compiled start in the 50's and go right up thru to today.

But like you said the cyls must be in decent cond to begin with and not like the pics on the 454HO GM crate motor that had approx 1/4 qt oil in each hole,that was nasty for sure and no amount of BoNami was going to fix that mess.

Scott

Scott

Everyday I see things here on the board that make me wonder what some of these guys are thinking.

The Bon-Ami is (as mentioned in one post) simply acting as an agent to accelerate the process of the rings sealing against the walls. It adds more friction, changes the friction coefficient if you will, between the rings and the walls. More fricton equals more wear equals a faster way to polish off any irregularities in the surfaces between the rings and the walls. Said another way with the Bon AMi you are adding the friction equivalent of MORE MILES to the engine faster than running the engine thru those miles on the road. Remember when you had to actually drive a car sevral thousand miles to break things in?

Just for the record I can't recall what kind of rings were in that motor. I dunno if they were chrome or moly or a set that had mixed chrome and moly. It was just too long ago. All this happened in 1969. I am not even sure if moly rings existed in 1969.

All that this BonAmi trick is doing is seating two mating surfaces together thru a mild abrasive compounding. People used to use some sort of gritty stuff to "lap" (SP?) valves in. This process is the same. Micro polishing via Bon AMI if you prefer to call it that, is all that is going oin here. Everyone is so sucked up into the high tech, high ZOOT solutions to and causes for these problems that they get lost in their own dust. Now they immediately think they need high dollar plate honing, laser scanning of hone patterns, 3d graphics images of the ring surface contour...some parts of this hobby have run away with themselves!!!!!

This issue with the 454's and apparently some of the 502s is pretty simple stuff to me. GM is sloppy and cheap with these motors. I have an LS6 crate motor (Gen 4) that came to me in the box in the late 1990's with a rod bearing cap pounded on BACKWARDS. I have a 350 4 bolt SB that had large chunks of core sand in the water jackets. Nobody has to convince me that GM is building junk.

In the case of the new 454's and the 502 engines GM is not prepping the cylinder walls correctly, installing rings upside down, or using low tension rings in order to make sexier numbers for power output. It is one or the other or possibly in the some cases some motors get all three strikes against them right from the get go. It is entirely plausable to me that these blocks have been skinnied down to a point where they don't have enough cyl wall stiffness or enough deck thickness and they are generally INFERIOR. I don't remember the need for plate honing these engines way back when. Sure it was done on some bucks down race motors way back when. Now it seems to me plate honing is required because the blocks are so cheezy. Guys have tried to put so much sex into these street driven motors that low tension rings are just another "must have" ! Then they end up burning oil! Wonder why?

GM is (and has been) building less than stellar stuff for TOO LONG and that is why they are where they are today. I am not sorry for GM or the GM workers. Management may be directing them to cast "thin deck" BBC engines and the workers are sloppy enough to install the rings upside down. These errors / omissions belong at the feet of Management AND Labor in the respective cases.

Guys are putting in Melling BLAH BALH model pumps thinkin they are somehow better. They MIGHT be better than the jumk GM is installing / building now but I cannot recall a GM motor failing an oil pump back when GM was doing things right. BB and SB oiling systems, designs and parts, were top notch back in the day. I read post after post "My oil pressure is falling off at high RPM...I run a Melling BLAH BALH Super Boy Racer oil pump with a Milodon Super Sump Kickout or Morosso Whiz Bang Street Killer oil pan. Is my engine pumping the pan dry? I look at that stuff and I wanna laugh.

I am almost totally sure that the reasons these things are happening are MISMATCHED PARTS. You get a pump from Supplier A, throw in a pan from Supplier B and sometimes a pickup from Supplier C with a windage tray from Supplier D and then people wonder why things are not woking right?????? Back when GM was doing things right you just used what GM supplied and it WORKED. I knew guys with 375 396 motors with all GM parts that burned no oil, reved to crazy levels and never lost pressure at high RPM. THey ran 4 QUART PANS, no kickouts no nothin 4 Quarts PERIOD. I also know guys who had 375 FI Vettes with the big oil pan (trap door) stock oil pump and factory windage tray. The engines were raced weekends and driven every day. They just ran! Done end of story. Not now. What ya have now is eather the GM junk or mismatched parts that don't play together.

THE RESOLUTION!!

The dealer called me today and gave me three options. I can get another engine, I can remove my engine and take it to their machine shop and have it fixed, or I can get a full refund. I am going to get the refund and put the money towards a LS1 and 6speed for my Chevelle. I am going to re-install the 454 I took out of it. I thought it had a serious problem but it turned out to just be a loose oil pump pickup. We installed a new Moroso oil pump with welded pickup and my buddy ran it in his 70 for 6 months. It actually does run better than the crate engine anyway.

Dave

And BTW the engine I built does not use any oil and I had tack welded the oil pump pickup but the weld did not penetrate (silly 110 welder). Oh well live and learn.

Wish I could have had even half of those options.
Summit told me to call Pace Chevrolet (where they got the engine).
Pace said (essentially) "tough f****n' bunnies"
GMPP also told me the same thing----AND----had the balls to tell me that no one else was having the issue. (I still have that clown's phone number)

but I"m better now---what's done is done, and I cannot change it.

Bryan

Man Bryan that stinks. I hope those engines cost GM a fortune. I am sure they will be paying bean counters to figure out why the engines failed when it was pointed out earlier that parts manufactured around the world assembled by unskilled non-union drones do not make a performance engine.

It's a shame that the dealer couldn't throw you a 502 for all your time, trouble & expenses. ESPECIALLY after having to replace 2 bad engines! It's good that they are giving you a refund but I think it would have been in their best intrest to make you, the customer happy by giving you a better motor. Then, at least they would stiil have your loyalty, support & get to keep you $$.

It's a shame that the dealer couldn't throw you a 502 for all your time, trouble & expenses. ESPECIALLY after having to replace 2 bad engines! It's good that they are giving you a refund but I think it would have been in their best intrest to make you, the customer happy by giving you a better motor. Then, at least they would stiil have your loyalty, support & get to keep you $$.

How many more crate engines his he likely to buy from the dealer. The dealer doesn't make much on those engines if their price is competitive with the other dealers and places like Summit. GMPP should be taking care of this, the dealer shouldn't have to eat it because GMPP built crap.

Old smokey is out of my Elcamino and my old/new engine is back between the fenders. It runs much better than the 454HO did. It is a .030 over 454 with 10.25 to 1 pistons and 1970 LS6 291 cylinder heads. It has a L88 hydraulic copy cam 560/580. I originally thought I had a big problem but it turned out to be a bad weld on my oil pump pickup. I fixed it soon after I pulled it last year and my buddy ran it in his Chevelle for a while. I am so glad to be rid of the crate engine. Unless GM were to totally overhaul the way they do crate engines I would not recommend anyone to buy one.

Dave

most excellent outcome, IMO. I would have bet you wouldn't get any actual money out of them. I realize you're still out lot's of time and trouble but at least you got some money back.

I dropped my engine off at the dealership on Tuesday afternoon. I am waiting on a check (even though I paid cash). I was told the dealer is trying to figure out if their warranty department is gonna pay me or GM performance. All I know is I paid for it at the dealership and it should be simple enough to pay me. I am getting to the point where I am gonna lose my cool. I am driving my car there tomorrow morning with it's non smoky engine and I am not gonna leave without my check. Man what a load.

That is a load of **** you paid them they should figure out who paying them not who pays you.. they sold it to you its thier problem not yours...they would work alot faster if they were trying to get their money back then yours.. I gotta give you credit I would have lost my cool a long time again .............good luck

I did read the whole thread.

He, He!!

Comet, Ajax and Bonami cleansers down the throat, shades of my youth and the earlier flathead motor guys that ran chrome rings that wouldn't seat in egg shaped dingle berry honed cylinders!

You'd get the same results closely following your Buddy down a dry dirt/gravel road at speed in the summer for an afternoon w/o a breather on your carb.

If I had this problem, I would think real hard about "knurling" the pistons .005" over and then plate hone, install GOOD rings and go.

And I really hope everything works out for everybody here w/ this crap of a PROBLEM!!

Happy 4th everybody!

pdq67

I went to the dealership at 8:30am this morning and the guy I have been dealing with was off. I talked to another guy and he took my paperwork then I left my number. He called back 30minutes later and I went and got my check. It is in the bank and I am done. Thank goodness and I did not even have to get rude.

Paul I would have done the knurl and hone if my warranty had been expired. I am gonna invest in a LS1 and 6 speed for my Chevelle.

SOB's at GM need to wake the F** up and do these engines RIGHT the 1st time, imo!

And when they finally turn into an import vehicle retail selling operation, I ain't buying ANYTHING OFF THEM..... F** 'em............

pdq67