Can anyone help me chase this problem in my 70 4-spd? The neutral safety switch has been removed and the purple ignition wires under the dash have been jumpered together so it should start with the gearshift in ANY position as long as the clutch is pushed in, correct? My car does have to be in reverse to get the key out as it has a connecting rod running from the linkage to the column that spins the column when I place it in reverse.

Just a pain to have the car in reverse to start it. Would hate to stall it at a stop sign or light with someone behind me as they see the reverse lights come on!!

Any ideas?

Thanks,

I not sure that I understand where you're coming from on this one. But, if the neutral safety switch was removed and the wires were jumped, you shouldn't even have to push the clutch in to start it (but you should), just take it out of gear. It doesn't have to be in reverse to start it.

If you have done what you say you have.....jumpered the correct wire around the neutral safety switch and taken the wire directly to the starter...then there is only one explanation.

The mechanical arm that is attached to the steering column is providing some type of torque/force on the column to inhibit the ignition switch from completing the circuit. The physical switch is on the lower part of the column and IS involved somehow. To test this theory you simply detach the arm and move the column arm around. Something is amiss in this area. I am sure that it is there...like it's loose or something? :confused:

You've actually answered your own question, sort of....

Your car has what is known as a "back drive" system, apparently functional and still in place. As you're aware, there are two rods connecting thru a bellcrank, from the reverse shift arm on your 4-speed, up to the lower collar on your column. For you to either start, or shut down & remove your keys, the shifter needs to be put into reverse, making the column rotate. This rotating column will lock your steering wheel and allow the key cylinder to become free letting you remove your key. It was a safety device GM installed on manual transmissions. Most folks ripped them out right away. Feel free to do the same, although I would suggest re-connecting your clutch safety switch to prevent starts in gear.

Hope this helps!

So will the ignition still lock if I remove this rod? I'm assuming it would not unless I would manually turn the column with my hands. Otherwise, I could probably start the car without the key or am I incorrect in my thinking?

Something must be up with that switch on the column and I will "monkey" with it tomorrow and report back. It used to start in any gear until John Muha helped me chase a ground problem under the dash with my gauge cluster shorting some things out by touching the column as it would spin when I put it in reverse. We fixed that by just grounding the gauge cluster housing to the parking brake. Maybe I bumped something under there while rooting around. I'll check it out.

Thanks a lot.

My guess would be that the Neutral Safety switch isn't truely jumped out of the circuit. Did you hard solder the 2 purples together? If so, there must be another switch on the transmision. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Car shouldn't care where the column is positioned.

On the 70 4 speed car I had the back up lights were were the only thing controlled by the column being in reverse. The starter interlock was with the switch mounted to the clutch linkage and it had the standard purple wires. I could start the car in any gear postion as long as the clutch was depressed. Is this a factory 4 speed or converted automatic?

Philip may be onto something here....if your car was ever converted, the column mounted NSS/Back-up switch may be coming into the equation. If you're not familiar with this, it is screwed onto the base of your steering column, and when the shell of your column rotates, it makes the switch go thru a range of movement too. At the point where the column is in "reverse", the backup light circuit is completed. On A/T cars, the column shell would have to be rotated all the way counterclockwise (as you sit in the seat & look at it) to allow the key to complete the starting circuit.

As for your question about if the igintion will still lock, yes...after you remove the backdrive rod, just take your hand and move the column shell into a fully counterclockwise position. The key will be removable, the steering wheel will unlock as the key is put into the "run" position.

In fact, that is how I would troubleshoot your issue. Un-hook the backdrive rod under the hood where it connects to the column bracket. Then play with the steering column shell and see if the engine will or won't start in different positions. Post results and we'll work it out!

Sorry guys, didn't get to mess with it today except to crawl under the dash and look around. I did not delete the NSS as it was done before I got the car back in 1983 and it looks like they were not soldered but a connector was used. And it is an original 4-spd car and not a conversion from an automatic.

I saw what must have been the base where the NSS plugged into at the base of the column. Was it on the right side of the column(if sitting in the seat) on the top and looks like a plug with two metal prongs on it sticking out of a white plastic base? Then on the left at the base of the column on top is another plug with a green and pink wire coming off of it. What might that be?

I will definately be tinkering with unhooking the rod and rotating the column by hand tomorrow. Sure wish the garage was heated as it's supposed to be like 9 degrees here tomorrow! I'll keep you posted.

Thanks,

Scott

Originally posted by wolfehunter:
Then on the left at the base of the column on top is another plug with a green and pink wire coming off of it. What might that be? Scott-

The light green & pink wires are your backup light circuit. I assume your B/U lights work, you didn't mention any problems with them, but that is how the circuit to illuminate the bulb works. When the column rotates, a sleeve inside the column that you can't see manipulates the switch you just discovered, completing the circuit when in the correct position.

Rotating the column won't help if the NSS wires are not attached to it.

I unhooked the reverse lever that rotates the column this morning and discovered that there must be some kind of switch in the column that allows the car to start depending on its position.
With the lever connected, placing the gershift in reverse rotates the column counter clockwise and just before the column stops I can hear a "click" in there somewhere.
After unhooking the lever, I could start the car with the shifter in any position and with the clutch depressed or not. But if I manually turned the column clockwise far enough past the "click" it would not start at all with the shifter in any position or clutch depressed or not.
Anyone forsee any problems with letting the rod unhooked and just positioning the column in its most counter clockwise position as to activate whatever swithc is in there? Besides the fact that the car will start in gear without the clutch depressed which could be dangerous?

Scott sorry if this is a dumb question but when you say "won't start" do you mean the key won't turn or the key turns and nothing happens? From your last post it sounds like the latter. The click you here may be the locking pin for the wheel.

Phillip,
I read my last post and it is amazing how different it sounds when you reread your own post! It even confuses me!

You're right, the key turns but nothing happens. So you are thinking that I am not hearing a switch being activated but rather some kind of pin that locks the ignition in the column? Sure wish I knew what was going on in there. Was hoping to keep the rod for the column hooked up to the reverse lever and still be able to start the car in any gear.

Scott you should be able to keep the rod hooked up to secure the column and activate the back up lights. The only circuit activated by the column postion on a 4 speed is the back up lights and that switch is not the same as the one used in the auto trans cars. The purple wires should have only been interupted by the clutch safety switch. Since you have tied them together the car should start anytime the ign is turned to the start postion. Trace the wires to see if someone has added anything into the circuit beyond the point where you tied the purple wires together. It is possible there may have been a switch installed by a previous owner causing the problem you are having.

No switches anywhere in the circuit past the jumpered wires so I have no idea why it will only start in reverse after the column is moved(spun) from its farthermost counter clockwise position.
I just removed the rod that runs to the column as suggested so I'll be good to go.

Thanks for the help fellows.
graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I just discovered that by removing the rod from the reverse lever to the column that my back up lights stay on all the time unless I manually spin the column. So that means I'll have to manually turn the column whenever I want my back up lights to come on.

I'm not sure which is worse: Having to start the car in reverse all the time or messing with the column all the time. Sure wish I was an electrician instead of a mental health casemanager!! Of course chasing these problems is enough to send me seeking psychiatric help for myself! :eek: graemlins/clonk.gif

Are the 2 purple wires soldered together? The ones that used to go to the NSS. They may be in a connector that has another cable plugged into it for your 4-speed car.

John,
The two purple wires are not soldered but a jumper wire was used on the black plug at the end
which I'm assuming the NSS was plugged into. This modification was done to the car prior to me buying it.

About 8 to 10 inches up from the plug at the end of the purple wires there is a black connector. The type that you must pry the tab up to get them apart. Why is that put in there as it would seem to serve no purpose since it just connects two purple wires coming from the dash to the two purple wires going to the black plug which is "jumpered"?

Sounds like some sort of a splice or repair. Or maybe someone was trying to short the 2 purples together and didn't work. Ended up going to the mating connector with the jumper to make things work.
Am I guessing right? Rotating your column, with the rod disconnected does not make the car start in any gear? It still just starts in reverse.

John,
That is incorrect. With the rod disconnected the car will start with the gearshift in ANY position as long as I manually spin the column clockwise a few degrees. But if I spin it back counter clockwise it will only start in reverse.

By manually rotating it counter clockwise(which is what the disconnected rod would do), this is what also allows the ignition to lock so I can get the key out. The steering wheel also used to lock if I wiggled it somewhat but I can no longer get it to lock but I didn't think that was related to the problem of only starting in reverse.

I understand now. I also understand about the locking steering wheel. Yes, you are right and that's mechanical. The rod rotates the column and allows the key to be removed. Not related.
So the only 2 wires left on the column are the back-up light wires? I think a pink and green wire. The purples no longer or never went to the column. This may sound a little dumb but try unplugging the back-up connector from the column. That connector should only work the rear back-up lights but it sounds like the only thing remaining on the column. See how the car starts after unplugging that. Dunno, maybe someone did something odd with those wires.

Unplugged the green and pink back up lights plug with no change. Still only starts if the column is spun counter clockwise which is what the reverse lever does to the column when the rod is connected. What else could it possibly be?

John, I think I first noticed this problem after you helped me with that short I had in my gauge housing in the electrical forum a while back. You had me run a ground from the housing to the parking brake because I could see sparks when the column would spin while putting it in reverse. The column would actually touch the metal of the gauge housing at one point and short out some of the gauges for an instant. For kicks should I disconnect that ground and see what happens?

I'm leaving for a doctor's appt. and won't be back until this evening. Going to see my psychiatrist!!!! lol graemlins/clonk.gif

John good thought, I can't imagine why anyone would do that but it is possible. Sure would be a lot of current thru some small wires.

Ok I must type to slow. Yes undo the ground if the problem seemed to start then and let us know what happens.

Scott, You need a Harley Davidson. Riding one is all the therapy any one will ever need. :D I used to have a shirt that said " You never see a motorcycle in parked at a psychiatrist office"

Originally posted by 64elcamino:
Yes undo the ground if the problem seemed to start then and let us know what happens.
Hi Philip. His original problem was that he pinched one of the pink wires between the column and the dash. When the column rotated it hit the pink IGN wire up there and made sparks. (Yeah I remember a couple of things once in a while). The ground wire didn't fix the problem but was only one thing along the way.
Wacha think about this.
1, No rod attached to the column.
2, No neutral start wires to the column. They are shorted.
3, No back-up wires to the column.
In short..diddly attached to the column.
Idea...????
Problem is with the ignition switch. When the column is rotated it's moving the switch rod a little?? Switch is not adjusted right?? Slight bend in the rod?? Key assembly is not pulling the switch far enough but moving the column pulls it more??

John and Phillip,
Unhooking that ground didn't change a thing. So just like John mentioned in prior post.
1. Purple wires disconnected from switch under dash and jumpered together.
2. Back up lights connector under dash disconnected(pink and green wire).
3. Reverse rod to column disconnected.

Almost has to be the ignition switch, right? Or whatever happens when that column is rotated? I did notice that with the parking lights on the temp. gauge jumps whenever I turn the key to start even though it doesn't start. Is that some kind of short and could possibly be related? Didn't notice if it does it without the parking lights on.

Actually looked at a Harley tonight! Dropped a gift off for a coworker's new baby tonight and her husband has one for sale that he bought new last year. And he's asking $13,800 but would take $13,500. It is white and I thought he said 1400 cc motor. I felt the stress draining out of my body just by looking at it Phillip!! Sweet!

John & Scott I don't think the rotation of the column should affect the switch like that. It has a stop that prevents it from going to the lock position but nothing to keep the rod from actuating the switch. This is one of the problems I love diving into, but doing it long distance is difficult. I have an old column buried somewhere in the storage shed,I need to dig it out and play with it to see what could possibly happen.
The purple wire goes from the ign switch thru the clutch or neutral safety switch and down to the starter. Position of the column shouldn't affect the electrical flow on a 4 speed car. Scott you have said you can hear a click when you rotate the column, maybe it is a switch. Are there any additional wires down at the soleniod that may interupt the purple wire and go thru a switch inside the car?

Yeah, sweet is an understatement. $13,500 is a real good price for a big bike. I paid $18k for my '02 Heritage and it is still worth close to that according to the dealer, but we have a much longer riding season and that seems to affect market value.

Phillip,
Are my purple wires supposed to go somewhere since they are jumpered together? What I mean is that from what I can see, the purples come out of a taped up harness under the dash and are just hanging there with a jumper wire at the plug on the end. Guessing that plugged into the NSS at one time?

On a 4-speed car the wires should just go out to the clutch switch. I'm not sure that switch is even in the circuit because of the shorting bar (jumper) across the NSS connector. Guessing it failed awhile back and someone by-passed it.
If rotating the column around affects how the car starts, I'm still blaming the ignition switch, even though that sounds a little far fetched. I'd try moving the switch slightly downward on the column so the rod pulls it a little more into the START position.

Scott one of the purple wires is coming off of the ign harness at the base of the column and the other goes to the starter solenoid. They loop thru the the safety switch. Yours are jumpered at the safety switch connector.

Moving the switch made no difference. Guess I'm stumped? If anybody comes up with any more ideas just send me an email.

thanks for trying :(

Wolfehunter
Let's Talk email me with your phone number and we will see what we can do