Maybe some of you have also had this problem and can help me out....

I took my 70 elky SS 396 out on the road yesterday and it started perfectly fine at my house. plenty of cranking power and all. It started right up no problem. I went about 5 mins away after letting the car warm up by driving it around town and got some gas, shut it down, and then went to start it back up and the starter would barely turn. It seemed to crank slowly and then almost sounded like it bound up. I let it sit for about a minute or two and then the thing fired right up.

Could the starter have gotten too hot from the exhaust manifold being right above it causing it to have a starting problem when it is hot?

There is no heat shield above the starter and does not appear to have been one originally since I can not find any holes in the engine block where the heat shield would have bolted up to.

The battery in the car is new and is charging fine so there is no problem about lack of charge. The starter is the one that came with the car and unknown if it has been replaced or not as the car when I bought it is all original with only 43 K on the odometer. This car was garaged kept its whole life so I am imagining that it is the original starter on the car also.

Anyone with any insight on this please let me know.

Thanks,


_________________
Brian Kapral
Boonton, NJ

1970 El Camino SS 396 factory bucket seats
1971 Buick GS Convertible
1969 Dodge Charger 383 HP, 4 spd console

Sure! Could be an old starter (worn/corroded brushes), heat soaked solenoid, corroded wiring/terminations, etc.

What to do? Well it's hard to wrap manifolds. If you replace the starter, it will be in the same place. So maybe you can put a heat shield on the starter.

If you want to get fancy, you might try a remote solenoid and stuff like that, but I would first try to replace the starter and see what happens...

-Bob Cunningham

It sounds like you've got either a bad starter or there is a poor connection in the wiring. Check the connections of the cables at both ends, ground and power. Also, check the crimps if they're old wires since they can corrode where the terminals are attached to the wire.

It's also possible you have too much initial advance. Try backing the timing off by about 5 degrees.

If you look for a new starter stay with GM parts, especially the solenoid. Or, rebuild the starter with new bushings and brushes and stick a new GM solenoid on it.

The solenoid engaged so it's not a problem a Ford solenoid will fix.

Peter

Save your money for a mini-starter..It will put and end to your hot-soak problem for good. Without a heat shield or header wrap most likely you will continue to have problems even with new components and good wiring. Been there done that..

Also maybe timing too far advanced?

-Bob Cunningham

I am more leaning towards the lack of a heat shield or a bad starter since there is plenty of voltage at the battery when the engine is warm. The battery is a brand new battery and has plenty of charge on it. Battery cables are new and the connections are nice and clean.

If it was the timing advanced too far, I should have a problem starting it even after the car is warm. If I let the car sit for about 5 mins or so and then try to start it again, it starts fine.

Heat shield has been ordered so I guess we shall see what happens with that.

The solenoid engaged so it's not a problem a Ford solenoid will fix.
No comment Peter F. tongue.gif :rolleyes:
Brian

Originally posted by CHELKAMINO:
No comment Peter F. tongue.gif :rolleyes:
Brian So what exactly do you call this then? :confused:

OH YEAH, you DO KNOW how a remote solenoid helps so you just know I'm right!

Peter

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-006.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-024.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-022.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-029.gif

One other thought. To me, 5 minutes is not enough time for the starter motor to cool down if it is suffering from a heat problem. Usually, the heat soak description is associated with the solenoid not engaging when you turn the key. ie, when you turn the key you get nothing at all from the starter. From your description, the solenoid engages but the starter doesn't have enough power. This makes me think it's a voltage problem and once the starter motor can get it past a compression stroke or 2 it can keep it turning. That is why I suggested checking main power connections. If it isn't a wiring problem then the starter motor is likely bad and not producing the torque it should.

The binding-up as you first described it does sound like timing. When you have too much advance, the engine will crank a 1/4 turn and then stop or grunt for a second before cranking another 1/4 turn. Maybe the mechanical advance in the distributor is sticking and holding timing in at idle and when stopped.

Any history on the car? ie, has it worked for you for a while or did you just get it?

The suggestion to buy a mini-starter is a good one. A good factory starter should be able to crank a 396 though.

Real nice Brian, I guess that proves you've got nothing important to say. graemlins/sad.gif

Peter

the history of the car is we got it about 3-4 months ago but we really havent been able to drive it due to not having it registered. The good ol state of NJ decided to take over 4 mos to get us the plates for the car. so whenever we started the car it was to start move and then let it sit so we can work on something else. The wiring to the starter is good and tight, no loose connections or broken wires. Starter seems to have plenty of power to it. I still have to check the timing when it is warmed up. Like I said, I ordered the heat shield so we will see what goes from that.

Ok, give it a try and let us know what happens.

Peter

Real nice Brian, I guess that proves you've got nothing important to say.
I've got plenty to say Pete.....just don't feel like wasting my time anymore.
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/grinser/grinning-smiley-043.gif
Brian

Originally posted by CHELKAMINO:
I've got plenty to say Pete.....just don't feel like wasting my time anymore. Well, I'm still waiting to hear your explanation of how the Ford solenoid helps when the stock solenoid is already engaging. If you want to make comments and feel you know something then post a technical explanation.

Peter

Resq302,

I think Peter F. is on the right track. One other item I would check is the starter it self. GM made at least two types of starters. A regular starter and a hi-torque starter. Your car should have a hi-torque starter. A regular starter will act exactly as your car is acting. To identify the starter look at the back of the solenoid. There will be a copper tab sticking out of the starter motor that connects to the solenoid. Hi-torque starters have a 5/8” spacer between the copper tab and the solenoid. The regular starter has no spacer. The copper tab bolts directly to the solenoid.


Good luck,
Bubba

See my post here http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=015343

Hi all,

Ok, today I pulled out the starter to check out the guts of the starter. When I went to take the wires off the solenoid, the smaller yellow, darker smaller wire, and the battery cable were not tight tight but snug enough that when the area heated up the wires probably expanded and loosened up causing the problem. So far it works fine but I guess time will tell.

thanks to everyone who gave their input since it did help in diagnosing the problem. I will keep everyone posted as to if the problem keeps up or if it is fixed.

I would suggest getting aluminum heat shields for both the starter & solenoid. In addition, change out your positive battery cable to at least a number 4 cable, preferably a number 2. This will allow more voltage to get to the starter motor. I had a lot of problems with the starter on my 71 Malibu & even with the bigger cable & heat shields, I had to install an external solenoid. I have had no problems since I made these changes. Good luck.