One of the people that helped dig up the sunken steamboat, Arabia was killed by a teenage street racer.
Two kids left fatherless. :sad: :mad:
http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/976170.html

dang. I knew Greg, great guy. My condolences to the family :(

No kidding, you knew him hu.
Are you in the same business?

Pretty sad :sad:

Prayers and condolences too the family on their loss of what sounds like a great historian, son, father and citizen! :(

As for the teen, I'm sure "Biff" has had everything he never could want for. Racing in his BMW, life was HIS and how dare anyone get in HIS way on HIS road. Hmmmm wonder where he'd get such self centered ideas about life? :rolleyes: I hope daddy isn't highly connected to get him off or just slapped on the wrist. I wish they'd make an example out of kids like this punk. Throw a vehicular manslaughter charge and try him as an adult. Let him be a bunkmuffin for "T-bone" in General Population for 10-15 years. Then when he gets out he'll whistle while standing in a stiff wind. Preperation H will be his daily medication of choice.

:sad: story,
RA

Yet another reason to keep it at the track.

Condolences to the family but this needs to be said.

The report says he was ejected as his PU rolled over. Sounds like he did NOT have his seat belt on. Cause if he did he would have stayed inside of his truck, got banged up, but possibly survived.

how is it KNOWN that it was street racing..
kids speed all the time..
i've been with friends, in my younger days.. that two or three cars were in the group, all speeding,, but not racing each other..

sad the guy in the p/u died..
r.i.p.
who's fault is it that he died..
the kid in the bmw..
or
the guy, for not having his seatbelt on..

just play'n devils av..

No kidding, you knew him hu.
Are you in the same business?

Pretty sad :sad:

I met him through the museum a few years back. A lot of the so called "old guard" in maritime archaeology criticised them for undertaking this recovery with no experience. "It should be left to the professionals" blah blah blah. They made some mistakes, but the end result is quite fantastic and lightyears better than more than one professionally run project I've seen.

If you've never been to the Arabia museum, it's worth the drive, jsut for that.

sad the guy in the p/u died..
r.i.p.
who's fault is it that he died..
the kid in the bmw..
or
the guy, for not having his seatbelt on..

just play'n devils av..

Yea, it's his fault for not wearing his seat belt..... :confused:

sad the guy in the p/u died..
r.i.p.
who's fault is it that he died..
the kid in the bmw..
or
the guy, for not having his seatbelt on..

just play'n devils av..

So----one should die for not wearing a seatbelt?????
The fault lies solely with the kid in the Beamer and the individual he was racing.

Law or no law, not everyone wears belts, same as not everyone will talk on a cell phone while driving.

I am guilty of not wearing belts all of the time----so am I to be blamed for my death if some clown knocks me off the road with enough force to start rolling the truck???

sad the guy in the p/u died..
r.i.p.
who's fault is it that he died..
the kid in the bmw..
or
the guy, for not having his seatbelt on..

just play'n devils av..


:sad:

I would truly be embarrassed to have had said something so stupid..............

Jeff

I am guilty of not wearing belts all of the time----so am I to be blamed for my death if some clown knocks me off the road with enough force to start rolling the truck???


Partially - yes. Sucks dont it. Maybe not in court, maybe not in a civil suit but when your "up there" or "down there" depending on how you live you might be sitting there looking back at your family, kids, etc mumbling "damn, if I had only worn my seatbelt"

Course, if you got trapped in a truck that was on fire and died because you had the belt on might be "damn, if I had only NOT worn the belt"

Variables....everyone like to leave out the thousands of variables in these type of things.

Kid driving reckless and too fast, wrecked and caused whatever else happened after that. Law wont take into account that the guy didnt have his belt on and issue his family a 30 dollar ticket, just that he died and it was the kids actions that caused the chain reaction. But bet your butt that if he wasnt wearing a belt that his family and him are now wondering why not...when its so simple and easy to do.

Sad news any way you look at it because it was preventable and we'll never know what could of been had both parties (IF the fatally injured party was in fact not wearing a belt) been more cautious or, in the case of the speeder, less reckless.

Wow, intersection of I-70 and Lee's Summit rd., that is fairly close to where I used to live. I was just off of Lee's Summit rd. and chapel woods dr. area on Newport Dr.. I had a condo on the chapel ridge golf course.

Jeff

how is it KNOWN that it was street racing..


Well DU hmm, lets see now, when two cars are sided by side speeding is probably how it is KNOWN.
BUT I guess YOU could call it two kids doing whatever :clonk:

Yeah right IF he wasn't wearing his seat belt then it's his fault that some punk hit him. :clonk: :noway:

Partially - yes. Sucks dont it. Maybe not in court, maybe not in a civil suit but when your "up there" or "down there" depending on how you live you might be sitting there looking back at your family, kids, etc mumbling "damn, if I had only worn my seatbelt"

Course, if you got trapped in a truck that was on fire and died because you had the belt on might be "damn, if I had only NOT worn the belt"

Variables....everyone like to leave out the thousands of variables in these type of things.

Kid driving reckless and too fast, wrecked and caused whatever else happened after that. Law wont take into account that the guy didnt have his belt on and issue his family a 30 dollar ticket, just that he died and it was the kids actions that caused the chain reaction. But bet your butt that if he wasnt wearing a belt that his family and him are now wondering why not...when its so simple and easy to do.

Sad news any way you look at it because it was preventable and we'll never know what could of been had both parties (IF the fatally injured party was in fact not wearing a belt) been more cautious or, in the case of the speeder, less reckless.

I agree with Beaux...

I wonder how bad the pickup was damaged? Would he have likely survived if he was wearing a belt?

Thats not to say that the teen wasn't ultimately responsible... But he was doing (if NOT wearing his belt) something that he knew was risky. IF I was on the jury, I'd need to see that he likely would have been killed anyway (or seriously injured) even with his belt, before I'd agree with "manslaughter"... Need to see ALL the facts...



Well DU hmm, lets see now, when two cars are sided by side speeding is probably how it is KNOWN.
BUT I guess YOU could call it two kids doing whatever

Maybe you know some other info??? But I read the article, and NOTHING was mentioned about 2 cars being side-by-side, or even speeding...

Authorities said a teenage driver in a red BMW was racing another eastbound vehicle near Lee’s Summit Road. The BMW’s driver apparently lost control and the BMW struck Hawley’s silver Ford pickup, causing the truck to leave the highway and overturn.


Just "allegedly" "street racing"... I can't how many times I have been speeding, and some else is too... I just drove back from LA for Christmas... Traffic on I-5 travells well about 75 MPH, and I was doing 80+ much of the way, along with a group of other cars and trucks... While we were speeding, we were definitely NOT racing... Even had many cars try to pass on the right, squeezing in between other cars, cutting people off... Everone was speeding, no one was racing, yet some were driving wreckless...

So I agree with the "street racing" comments...

I think the media should have used a term such as "wreckless driving", rather than street racing...

By saying it was street racing, there will enevitably be a crack down on any cars that "look" like street racers, when there really should be an effort to educate ALL teens and young adults, (and some older people as well)... Doesn't matter if its a BMW or a "stock" Honda Accord...

I know MANY people (including myself) that were law abiding (at the time), yet pulled over and harrassed because our cars looked like "street racers" (or hot rods, etc), especially soon after a major incident such as this...

The Media label hurts the classic car hobby, without really curtailling the problem (even IF the offending car was a BMW)...


Someone else made the comment (prejudiced?) that it was probably some rich kid, solely because of the "BMW" (I am assuming, because I saw no other info that would determine otherwise)... Don't get me wrong, I hate when familys use "connections" to bypass proper punishment, but we just don't know what the case was here... Kids are often stupid, maybe it was a stolen BMW, maybe the guy worked for a dealer, maybe it was a 15-year old BMW, etc...

But he was doing (if NOT wearing his belt) something that he knew was risky.

Tony, I don`t usually disagree with you but I have to with this comment. We all do things that we know are risky on a daily basis but it doesn`t mean we are at fault or to blame. It`s risky to get in your car every morning and drive to work but when someone falls asleep, isn`t paying attention or is drunk and hits you when your obeying the traffic laws does that make it partialy your fault? I guess you could look at it like if you weren`t drinving then you wouldn`t get hit but that really can`t apply here because how are you going to get to work or the store or pick your kids up from school or anything else in life that requires us to leave the house?

I think we can all agree that street racing is stupid and I`m guilty of doing it myself when I was younger like alot of us here but I think any time a street racer causes a injury or death there is no way you can blame the injured party for not wearing a seatbelt. Yeah maybe it would have saved him but maybe if the kids weren`t racing it wouldn`t matter if he was wearing a seat belt or not.

:sad:

I would truly be embarrassed to have had said something so stupid..............

Jeff

x2

We can argue about seat belts and what we did when we were young and the badness of BMW's and the type of people who drive them.
The real issue is that young people (especially of the male variety) are prone to fits of testosterone and adrenalin. If we gave then outlets to get these "urges" out of their systems we would give them an alternative and we wouldn't have a lot of these problems.
No one seems to want any sort of motor sports facility around their communities however. Many are being closed down or being moved further out making it harder for those of an adventurous spirit to indulge their whims.

Having said all that:
Wear seat belts, play at the track!

Ron

Ron

Problem with kids of today is they do not understand or respect the danger of cars they are driving at high speeds. Most of the younger generations only know front wheel drive and all wheel drive. These cars practically drive themselves compared to old school rear wheel drive. They feel invinsible and when the car get loose they don't know what to do with it. Common sense has become a thing of the past I'm afraid. I work with a young guy that just lost his best friend in a street racing accident, 17 years old! It's a real sad story because his mother had not been there for him at all and now she is trying to get millions from the other drivers insurance.

We can argue about seat belts and what we did when we were young and the badness of BMW's and the type of people who drive them.
The real issue is that young people (especially of the male variety) are prone to fits of testosterone and adrenalin. If we gave then outlets to get these "urges" out of their systems we would give them an alternative and we wouldn't have a lot of these problems.
No one seems to want any sort of motor sports facility around their communities however. Many are being closed down or being moved further out making it harder for those of an adventurous spirit to indulge their whims.

Having said all that:
Wear seat belts, play at the track!

Ron


Ironiclly enough, where this accident happened, if my memory is correct and Dean would know better than I would, I think they were very, very close to Kansas City International Raceway dragstrip. When I lived there, I was only a few miles from the reported intersection this happened at, and I seem to recall the dragstrip being right up that same way.

Dean, isn't KCIR on Noland rd? And Noland rd. is really close to Lee's Summit rd if memory serves me right. It was 1994 when i lived there.

Jeff

Maybe you know some other info??? But I read the article, and NOTHING was mentioned about 2 cars being side-by-side, or even speeding...

I was replying to TAZ when he shouted KNOWN above about how the witnesses knew they were racing but maybe so since it's where I live and it's been on all the local TV news cast several times reporting "two cars racing".
It probably wouldn't have been on your local TV news in CA.
But you're right I didn't see it in the article.
I also didn't see anything about anyone not wearing a seat belt in the article OR hear that on TV either.

I did see "Authorities said a teenage driver in a red BMW was racing another eastbound vehicle"


Just "allegedly" "street racing"... I can't how many times I have been speeding, and some else is too... I just drove back from LA for Christmas... Traffic on I-5 travells well about 75 MPH, and I was doing 80+ much of the way, along with a group of other cars and trucks... While we were speeding, we were definitely NOT racing... Even had many cars try to pass on the right, squeezing in between other cars, cutting people off... Everone was speeding, no one was racing, yet some were driving wreckless...

So I agree with the "street racing" comments...

I think the media should have used a term such as "wreckless driving", rather than street racing...
Why hide the fact that they were seen street racing? :confused:

By saying it was street racing, there will enevitably be a crack down on any cars that "look" like street racers, when there really should be an effort to educate ALL teens and young adults, (and some older people as well)... Doesn't matter if its a BMW or a "stock" Honda Accord...

I know MANY people (including myself) that were law abiding (at the time), yet pulled over and harrassed because our cars looked like "street racers" (or hot rods, etc), especially soon after a major incident such as this...

The Media label hurts the classic car hobby, without really curtailling the problem (even IF the offending car was a BMW)...


Someone else made the comment (prejudiced?) that it was probably some rich kid, solely because of the "BMW" (I am assuming, because I saw no other info that would determine otherwise)... Don't get me wrong, I hate when familys use "connections" to bypass proper punishment, but we just don't know what the case was here... Kids are often stupid, maybe it was a stolen BMW, maybe the guy worked for a dealer, maybe it was a 15-year old BMW, etc...

Yes it is fairly close to the KCIR drag strip, but not like within a block or two.

I'm wondering why almost every thread winds up with arguments lately. :confused:

Yes it is fairly close to the KCIR drag strip, but not like within a block or two.

I'm wondering why almost every thread winds up with arguments lately. :confused:

But close enough that the argument of "kids don't have a place to race legally" really doesn't fly in this case.

It's winter. And up this way, it has already been a darn long one. Couple that with the majority of the population on edge about their jobs and arguments are going to happen.

Jeff

Yes it is fairly close to the KCIR drag strip, but not like within a block or two.

I'm wondering why almost every thread winds up with arguments lately. :confused:

you might have to lock your own post :clonk:

I'm wondering why almost every thread winds up with arguments lately. :confused:

no they don't! you have no idea what you're talking about!!!!!!



:)

So----one should die for not wearing a seatbelt?????
The fault lies solely with the kid in the Beamer and the individual he was racing.

Law or no law, not everyone wears belts, same as not everyone will talk on a cell phone while driving.

I am guilty of not wearing belts all of the time----so am I to be blamed for my death if some clown knocks me off the road with enough force to start rolling the truck???

my point, was if he was belted in, would he be dead?????????????
thats all..
if the seatbelt was on.. the kid in the bmw, would still be at fault.. but not facing murder charges..
so, play'n devils av..
who's fault..

:sad:

I would truly be embarrassed to have had said something so stupid..............

Jeff


why
the kid in the bmw still hit the truck..
and would be at fault..
but the guy in truck might still be with us, and the kid not facing murder charges..
all 50 states(i think) seat belts are law..
all I was say'n, (and not so stupid)
is, the crash, wouldn't have cause death, if seatbelt was used..
HOW IS THAT STUPID..
the kid is at fault for causin' the crash..
but the guys death was cause by no seatbelt..
and I'm not embarrassed to have brought it up..
fact is , if he had seatbelt on.. kid would be sighted for , all types of things..
but not invol. manslaughter or worse..

this kids going away for a long time because the driver of the p/u made a CHOICE not to use a seatbelt. and to break the law..

Well DU hmm, lets see now, when two cars are sided by side speeding is probably how it is KNOWN.
BUT I guess YOU could call it two kids doing whatever :clonk:

Yeah right IF he wasn't wearing his seat belt then it's his fault that some punk hit him. :clonk: :noway:


and if he had been FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THE ROAD.
and had his seatbelt on. 90% he'd still be here..

dean where you there to see it first hand..??
no??
media makes more car crashes out as street racing that are not..
I wasn't there, was play'n devils av.

the guy got tossed out of the truck , and that is what more than likely killed him..

the kid was wrong. yes he was..
will he end up paying for the guy death yes he will
if the same crash happened and a seatbelt was used, would the guys family be morr'n his death... maybe not..

the kids at fault for the crash..
but, I'm sorry..
the guy died and all..
he made a choice not to buckle in.. and his family is paying for it..
am I sticking up for the kid,, no..
all I'm say'n, is the guy wouldn't have died(more than likely) if he used a mandated safty belt.

why
the kid in the bmw still hit the truck..
and would be at fault..
but the guy in truck might still be with us, and the kid not facing murder charges..
all 50 states(i think) seat belts are law..
all I was say'n, (and not so stupid)
is, the crash, wouldn't have cause death, if seatbelt was used..
HOW IS THAT STUPID..
the kid is at fault for causin' the crash..
but the guys death was cause by no seatbelt..
and I'm not embarrassed to have brought it up..
fact is , if he had seatbelt on.. kid would be sighted for , all types of things..
but not invol. manslaughter or worse..

this kids going away for a long time because the driver of the p/u made a CHOICE not to use a seatbelt. and to break the law..


You seem to be awefully sure of yourself on that. Perhaps you need to talk to a EMT or first responder or even a police officer and ask them how many bodies they unbuckle. The guy may have not have been tossed, but that certainly does not mean he might not have died.

The fact is this, if the kid had not been driving 100% irresponsibly, the guy would be alive as he wouldn't have been hit. You can blame the victim all you like, the fact is he would have been home to his wife that night had it not been for those kids.

Jeff

Dean: I heard about this a few hours ago. Condolences to the family :(

no they don't! you have no idea what you're talking about!!!!!!



:)
l:)l:)l:)l:)l:)

Actually TAZ starts an argument in every thread that he posts in.

you might have to lock your own post :clonk:
Too funny!l:)

You seem to be awefully sure of yourself on that.
I've said it before, Taz knows a lot of things about a lot of things. Thankfully for the rest of us ignorant folk, he's more than willing to share.
Actually TAZ starts an argument in every thread that he posts in.
Glad I'm not the only one that thought so.

On a brighter note, I just figured out how to add someone to my "ignore" list.

You seem to be awefully sure of yourself on that. Perhaps you need to talk to a EMT or first responder or even a police officer and ask them how many bodies they unbuckle. The guy may have not have been tossed, but that certainly does not mean he might not have died.

The fact is this, if the kid had not been driving 100% irresponsibly, the guy would be alive as he wouldn't have been hit. You can blame the victim all you like, the fact is he would have been home to his wife that night had it not been for those kids.

Jeff

MAYBE IF I SCREAM IT,, YOU'LL ALL GET IT..

I'M N O T S T I C K ' N UP FOR THE KID..
NEVER SAID I WAS..

I WAS JUST BRING UP THE FACT THAT , A FAMILY MIGHT NOT BE WITH OUT A FATHER, HUSBAND.. IF HE'S SEATBELT WAS USED..
MAYBE HE'D STILL BE DEAD..
I don't know..
I do know that, a kid, that made a stupid move..(kids do things stupid, you do remember being a kid,??)
is going to be paying for a death.. that may have not been the outcome.. of this crash..

the guy, might have walked away..
again, may not have..
wonder if it. was you or your kid.. would you feel that ,maybe the death, that your kid will have to life with for life.. could've been avoided,,

I know .. I'm stupid...

l:)l:)l:)l:)l:)

Actually TAZ starts an argument in every thread that he posts in.

dean. how is this an argument
dean
how,,
I was just throw'n it out there..

sorry you feel this way..

my take.. their both to blame for the death.. the kid for cause'n the crash in the first place..
and the guy that choise to break the law..and didn't use his seatbelt..
if nothing else.. maybe all ,here that choose to call me stupid..
might think about their families. and use a seatbelt...
and If me being stupid and starting an ARGUMENT (as you say dean)
stops one death..
then call me stupid all you dam want

wonder if it. was you or your kid.. would you feel that ,maybe the death, that your kid will have to life with for life.. could've been avoided,,

I know .. I'm stupid...

Yes if it was me or my kid I would know it could have been avoided by not being 100% irresponsible.

Jeff

my point, was if he was belted in, would he be dead?????????????
thats all..
if the seatbelt was on.. the kid in the bmw, would still be at fault.. but not facing murder charges..
so, play'n devils av..
who's fault..

Nobody here is qualified to answer that. how do you know he would be alive if he was wearing a seatbelt? How many people are killed everyday and they are wearing their seat belt and a air bag most likley went off too.

I`ll do you one better here. If the guy in the truck had been driving on a different road or even not at all he`d probably still be alive. It`s rediculous to blame the lack of the seat belt as being partially at fault because nobody can prove otherwise. Another point is, had the kids been dring the speed limit do you think there would have been a accidednt? so whats more important, the lack of a seat belt or excesive speed?

? so whats more important, the lack of a seat belt or excesive speed?


BOTH.. doing either is breakin g the law..


again sad he died..
may he rest in peace..

............

Again sad he died..
May he rest in peace..

Amen

Dunno how old you are Taz, but you do realize that the seatbelt law has not really been around all that long.
Got into Cal. around '93-(yep got busted on that one)
Also this guy 'could' have been tooling along in a 67 F-150----no seat belts in there.
Old habits die hard---some people just do not wear them-----and the only thing that make me put them on is the annoying buzzer and lights--in the daily drivers.
My 59 does not even have them----Tho the 66 will get them.

Hell, we have known that smoking is hazardous since the mid 60s---we still smoke.
People as a general rule are just not too bright.

People drink----and as many think that that smoking kills too many people----drinking affects many more than smoking ever thought of.

Not fair to criticize someone for not wearing a belt, when so many are talking on the phone, drinking, smoking, or doing anything else that may ultimately end in their demise.

Despite all of the stupid laws we have on the books---and yes I think mandatory belts or helmets for people over 18 is wrong---somebody is always going to ignore them.

Keep in mind----when many of us started driving----no seatbelts in the cars we drove.

I find it interesting that there is such a united front to put the kid under the jail from this forum while you can go do a search and find any number of burnout pics and videos of "spirited" driving all over this board. With all the high power machines on this board, no one has "opened her up a bit" on a public highway or road. From what I'm reading, no matter whether anyone was around or not, whether anyone was put in danger by your driving, it is illegal and therefore you should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Everyone here is a "reformed" street racer. "I only did that when I was young and dumb" is the popular sentiment that I'm hearing. The fact of the matter is .... we all have been that kid at some point in our lives, whether we were racing or just exceeding the speed limit by "letting her breathe a bit". Fortune has smiled upon us and allowed us to be here today, passing judgement. The incontrovertible facts are these : 1 the driver was not exercising his best judgment and put peoples lives at risk by his actions. The fact that he was driving a BMW is a moot point, it could have been a chevelle, a yugo, a pinto or a prius, the results would have been the same. 2 the results of this young man's actions were that another gentleman died as a direct result. It is tragic that the man was not wearing his seatbelt as it MAY have saved his life but the one thing that set these deplorable series of events in motion was the lapse in judgement by the young man in the BMW. The lack of a seatbelt compounded the effects.

My sympathies go out to the family and friends of the victim. I also send them to the young man driving the BMW. Besides the legal ramifications, he has to live with the fact that his carelessness cost another human being his life. I'm sure it is a lesson not soon forgotten.

I would offer up my opinion and condolences but it has been made apparent to me lately that I am too young to have any feasible opinions:yes:

I would offer up my opinion and condolences but it has been made apparent to me lately that I am too young to have any feasible opinions:yes:

not true..
I was pointing out that at 19. I thought the same way..


your thoughts are more of an issue, because of beening on the wrong coast..
all that smog ,rots yer brain

;)

and in case you missed it..
IT"S A JOKE>>

Well his brother was talking about him not wearing his seat belt on the news this AM so I guess it's now official that he wasn't.

Thinking about it last night, I can see what I think TAZ meant about the kid having a more serious charge against him (maybe) because there might not have been a death otherwise.

Yes it is fairly close to the KCIR drag strip, but not like within a block or two.

I'm wondering why almost every thread winds up with arguments lately. :confused:

It's called cabin fever.

Well his brother was talking about him not wearing his seat belt on the news this AM so I guess it's now official that he wasn't.

Thinking about it last night, I can see what I think TAZ meant about the kid having a more serious charge against him (maybe) because there might not have been a death otherwise.

First let me say I am sorry to hear of this. He sounded like a reat guy to have known! My condolences to his family.

While that is true Dean it does not diminish the fact that if not for the kids wreckless and sensless act this man would still be alive. Period!
Here the seatbelt issue would most likely result in the charges being 1st or 2nd degree vehicular manslaughter rather than reckless homicide.
The only place that him not being seatbelted would come into play would be on assessing a settlement in a civil case. Then a pecentage of fault would be determined.

.
The only place that him not being seatbelted would come into play would be on assessing a settlement in a civil case. Then a pecentage of fault would be determined.


or him maybe being alive..
I guess "that place" don't count..

sadly to many here missed the point..

I don't care if you've been driving for 60 years..

buckle up .. .
think of your family..
habbits die hard..
but, see'n loved one faces, again should mean enough to break it..

You libtards beat all I've ever seen. Folks like you are why our legal system is a mess to begin with and why pissant personal injury lawyers/ambulance chasers have become such highly paid parasites on our economy.

The fact that the deceased gentleman wasn't wearing his seatbelt has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this matter. The wreck was caused by Biff Beamer's wrecklessness. THAT is the problem and caused the resultant accident, the fact that the gentleman wasn't wearing his seatbelt means NOTHING.

If he had not been in an accident and made it home too his family it would not have mattered one iota whether or not he had his seatbelt on.

By your twisted logic you could shoot someone and if they survived then you have done no harm! I guess attempted murder charges are bogus and secondary in your world as well???

I hope Biff Beamer ROTS in jail on a multitude of charges beginning with Vehicular Homicide. Stupid kid or not, if you are "responsible" enough to get behind the wheel on a public road then you should be held accountable for ALL results of your actions...

If my kid does something so irresponsible I WANT him to suffer dire consequences. Todays society has watered down accepting ones responsibilities and NO ONE is held to any decent standards anymore. THAT is what's wrong with our world today... :sad:
RA

If my kid does something so irresponsible I WANT him to suffer dire consequences. Todays society has watered down accepting ones responsibilities and NO ONE is held to any decent standards anymore. THAT is what's wrong with our world today... :sad:
RA

no one said, the kid wasn't at fault..
point was. the guys family might be talking to him today, if he buckled up..

and if he was buckled up.. might not be dead..

no matter..

and as far as acceptings one responsibilities..
that goes both ways..
following the laws of the roads.. is a responibility. that BOTH failed to do..
one's dead..
one might as well be..
sadly.. the kids going to have to live with this..
and, a little "click" might have saved a family a lot of tears..
the kids still a fool.. and is at fault..
but, if a jury ,is asked, "would he still be here ,if he was buckled in?"
like it or not..
thats a very vallid question..
that no one here can answer..

Stupid kid or not, if you are "responsible" enough to get behind the wheel on a public road then you should be held accountable for ALL results of your actions...

That right... And if the pickup driver was 'responsible" enough to NOT wear his seat belt, then he might be partially accountable for the results... DESPITE the wreckless actions of the teen, the pickup driver might have gone home to his family if HE had been responsible enough to buckle up...

He owed that responsibility to his family...

This case happened to be a wreckless driver, but what if it was truly an accident???



If my kid does something so irresponsible I WANT him to suffer dire consequences. Todays society has watered down accepting ones responsibilities and NO ONE is held to any decent standards anymore. THAT is what's wrong with our world today... :sad:
RA

I am no liberal (quite the opposite actually), but I do look at the fact that whether the kid was wreckless, or whether it was just an accident, the results could have been far different IF the pickup driver had been doing the "responsible" thing, wearing his seat belt...

Thats not to say the kid shouldn't be punished, he should. But if the pickup drivers lack of a seatbelt was a contributng factor to his demise, then that should be accounted for...


Nobody here is qualified to answer that. how do you know he would be alive if he was wearing a seatbelt? How many people are killed everyday and they are wearing their seat belt and a air bag most likley went off too.
But how many people are killed (with or without a seatbelt), due to an true accident (no wreckless driving involved)? Happens all the time...

Actually, NOBODY hear is "qualified" to blame the kid... Its all hearsay, based on a media accounts... Nothing said "excessive speed", just one mention of "street racing" which hasn't actually been determined yet... Maybe the kid WAS doing the speed limit and hit some "black ice", and maybe some slow-driving little old lady witness told the police that she saw them "racing"... There might NOT have even been another "racer" involved... We don't know...

True-story; I T-boned a lady once, totally her fault, but there were several witnesses that said I was speeding... I was driving a '68 Corvette with a 427 and 4.11 gears, so the car did leave the line quickly, and sounded like it was moving... Anyway, Police and insurance company forensics (based on skid marks and damage) PROVED that I was NOT speeding (actually, I think the conclusion was that I was going UNDER the posted speed limit/safe for conditions; clear/dry day)...

So just because you hear it on the news, doesn't mean we know everything that went on... Dean has heard several accounts from the media, but the differnet outlets often get the info from the same source... I hope Dean reposts someday when the investigation is completed, and THEN we can discuss some more...

I`ll do you one better here. If the guy in the truck had been driving on a different road or even not at all he`d probably still be alive. It`s rediculous to blame the lack of the seat belt as being partially at fault because nobody can prove otherwise. Another point is, had the kids been dring the speed limit do you think there would have been a accidednt?

The point is, aside from the emergency hospital costs, the "seat belt laws" are there to protect people in case of an accident or un-avoidable occurance... Air bags help save lives and reduce injuries... Seat belts do the same AND keep you in your seat where you are More likely to be able to retain control of your vehicle...


"Maybe" the kid "barely" hit the pickup (no significant damage), but because the driver wasn't buckled in, he lost control. We Don't know...

And thats NOT as far fetched as it sounds...


I have actually experienced something similar, an actual accident , where IF the driver was buckled, the car most likely would NOT have crashed...

Back in 1984, my buddy and I (stupid kids) were driving along the freeway, when he unbuckled his seatbelt for like 20 seconds (honestly, that quickly) ... At that EXACT moment, the truck had a blow out and started to fish tail. He tried to correct the steering, but since he wasn't buckled, he was sliding in his seat too much, and the truck ended up going out of control, rolling and ejecting both the driver and myself... Definitely a case where being buckled likely would have avoided any wreck...

Totalled the truck, and we were both VERY lucky to be alive (how many people do you know that are ejected at 55+ MPH and survive :waving:). Someone was looking out for us...

We were actually lucky we were ejected, as the truck was pretty badly damaged (Toyota 4X4), and probably would have killed us...

Despite being lucky to have NOT had my seat belt on at the time, I now always wear my seatbelt... Maybe its an inconvenience, but I see the value in minimizing the risks... Same with helmets...They're not to save you from YOUR "responsible" driving (usually), but to protect you from lifes unexpected events and accidents...


and as far as acceptings one responsibilities..
that goes both ways..
following the laws of the roads.. is a responibility. that BOTH failed to do..
one's dead..
one might as well be..
sadly.. the kids going to have to live with this..
and, a little "click" might have saved a family a lot of tears..
the kids still a fool.. and is at fault..
but, if a jury ,is asked, "would he still be here ,if he was buckled in?"
like it or not..
thats a very vallid question..
that no one here can answer..


I agree... whether the kid was at fault for causing the wreck isn't the big issue, I think we all assume that to be the case... The big discussion is that is that, IMO, the deceased had a responsibility to his family to try and protect himself... And was the kids driving wholely responsible for the life...


Yeah, not really an "argument", just a lively discussion...

IF IF IF...

IF grandma had balls we'da called her grandpa!!!

DAMN some folks just can't lay blame where it belongs, :sad:
RA

The point is, aside from the emergency hospital costs, the "seat belt laws are there to protect people in case of an accident or un-avoidable occurance...

WRONG!!!!
Altho this is a side benefit, this law is in place solely for the insurance companies.
Granted, this will reduce the chances of serious injuries, it also reduces the outlay of cash to the medical fields after an acciedent.

Yes---seat belts can and do save lives----but the law is not for our benefit, it is for the benefit of the law enforcement agencies (source of income) and the insurance companies (cost avoidance).

Insurance co. would rather see someone pass than to pay a hospital for years of theapy or convelesing (sp??)

...this law is in place solely for the insurance companies.
Granted, this will reduce the chances of serious injuries, it also reduces the outlay of cash to the medical fields after an acciedent.

Yes---seat belts can and do save lives----but the law is not for our benefit, it is for the benefit of the law enforcement agencies (source of income) and the insurance companies (cost avoidance).

Insurance co. would rather see someone pass than to pay a hospital for years of theapy or convelesing (sp??)

I'd say wrong... Sure, a nice side-benefit for the insurance companys, enough to make them support bills and laws...

The "source of income for law enforcement agencies"... total BS... How many "seat belt" tickets do you think the typical officer writes in a day? And how much do the fines actually cost? First, there's no way the fines and fees cover the expenses... Plus, ask any officer. I am sure they will tell you theres alot more stuff the could write tickets for... Alot more money making violations and a better use of their time... Then take into account the court clerks, etc...

How many officers go into that line of work to "make money"? Most (everyone that I know) originally went into Law Enforcement because they wanted to help people (whether it be crime deterent, curbing gang violence, stopping speeders)... Sure, many might get jaded after years on the force, but the draw is there desire to help keep the public safe...

Just like someone mention previously about asking EMTs, first-responders, etc about the bodies still buckled... Ask them (EMTs, hospitals, Police/Fire) about the difference between the typical "buckled" people versus the un-buckled after a crash...

Despite how much the insurance companies might love the laws for reducing costs, that is NOT the reason the laws were created initially...

No Tony, it was the insurance companies that insisted that there be seatbelt laws passed. They are the ones that lobbied for them! They are the same ones that push helmet laws too!

As far as the accident, seat belt or not, HAD THE LITTLE IDIOT IN THE BMW BEEN DRIVING IN A SAFE AND SENSIBLE MANNER, THE MAN WOULD HAVE ARRIVED HOME SAFELY!!! Nothing else matters! Now let him pay!:yes:

FACT guy was thrown from truck
fact ,truck rolled
fact 99.9% of the time..
if you roll a car/truck and are belted in..
YOU LIVE TO SEE ANOTHER DAY

FACT .HE IS DEAD
HOPEFULLY IT WAS QUICK.
And he's in a better place..
r.i.p.

You libtards ..............

Now now Jim, don't you know that name calling reflects back on the "call-er" not the "call-ie" :D

Him wearing his seatbelt or not is irrelivant. He might have died anyways. I'm sure there were bigger contributing factors than that.

FACT guy was thrown from truck
fact ,truck rolled
fact 99.9% of the time..
if you roll a car/truck and are belted in..
YOU LIVE TO SEE ANOTHER DAY

FACT .HE IS DEAD
HOPEFULLY IT WAS QUICK.
And he's in a better place..
r.i.p.

Goooooooood gravy anyway! The kid caused the wreck. Therefore the kid killed the man.. That simple. Get over it..