I thought the starter was acting up on my 68 Malibu when it would occasionally just 'click' when I turned the key. I replaced the starter/solenoid and it cranked fine for a day then started acting up again - sometimes just the solenoid making a click and sometimes the starter cranking slow enough to get the car started. When jumping the battery to the purple solenoid post the starter cranks good and fast. The manual says this is a wiring situation.
All underhood wiring looks fine and the starter wires are in good shape where visible outside the looms. I've tried jiggling the ignition switch and shifter handle while starting the car. No improvement in starter performance. Is it safe to assume I have either an ignition switch or neutral safety switch failure?

Or perhaps a bad solenoid.

Whats the likelihood the new solenoid behaves like the one I replaced? Could it be some electrical inadequacy that damages my solenoid?

Does this only occur when the engine is hot? This is not that uncommon...you may need a starter heat shield. Also, there is a vast difference in the quality of starters and solenoids out there. If you can find a GM dealer willing to give you a wholesale price, the GM stuff is almost always better. Aftermarket re-man solenoids are junk in my opinion.

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Mike Newby

69 Chevelle 355/TH200-4R
97 Grand Prix GTP
64 Chevy C10 Pickup
79 Suzuki GS550

Naw, it happens anytime, about half of the time I try turning the key. Cold or hot. When it does crank, it's real slow. But place a jumper wire on the 10 ga. purple solenoid terminal and the positive battery cable, and it cranks real fast like it should. There must be something that has deteriorated in the wiring somewhere.

Worn starter motor brushes will cause the problem you're describing. Pull the starter and check the condition of the brushes. Replace them if they're not at least 7/16" long.

In that it cranks over when you jumper the solenoid is understandable, and could be the ignition switch or neutral safety, as you stated. But the part about the starter cranking faster when you jumper the solenoid doesn't make any sense; mechanically it's the same connection regardless of whether you energize the solenoid with the key(if and when is does energize) or with the jumper.

There are alot of reasons that the solenoid wont energize with the key, but you will need a voltmeter to figure out where the problem is. You can replace the neutral safty switch with a jumper to rule it out, and jumper the ignition switch as well, although the jumper for the ignition switch would be a momentary kind of jumper. Anything else pretty much requires a voltmeter.

Or you can just replace to solenoid with a GM (Delco Remy?) solenoid and see if it takes care of your problem.

Worst case, you can install an external ford solenoid.

Gene, the reason it probably cranks at regular speed when I jump directly off the battery to the purple solenoid terminal is
because I'm by-passing all the wiring in the car. Sometimes when I turn the key there is only a "solenoid" type of click, other times it will crank, but at a much slower speed than normal, similar to a low battery.
In the past, on a car I had with an ignition switch that went bad, the "start" position could no longer be accessed by the key, due to a faulty tumbler. Here it appears the ignition switch has it's full range of motion, but a limited amount of juice is making it through to the solenoid, causing slow cranking.
Guess I better flip the switch on my dwell meter to the voltmeter setting and learn how to use it.
When I first encountered this problem after a long road trip in 95 degree heat, I immediately rushed out and picked up a replacement starter/solenoid because it was still under warranty, after installation it worked fine for a couple of times then behaved like the one I replaced. Only then did I consult a manual, and it stated the solenoid was not at fault if you could jump it directly from the battery, and that it points to a wiring/switching problem.
I don't know which is worst, electrical problems or mysterious vacuum leaks! I guess this is expected when you use 30-year-old cars for daily transportation, things just slowly degrade.

The purple wire doesn't supply any voltage to turn the starter though. The way the solenoid works is that as the plunger reaches the end of its travel, it pushes a copper disc into the battery cable terminal and starter terminal (and "r" terminal as well), shorting the battery to the starter. Whether this is accomplised by turning the key or shorting the s terminal to the battery cable, it's still the same "switch", and shouldn't change depending on how the solenoid was energized.


[This message has been edited by Gene McGill (edited 07-17-2002).]

I see where you're coming from. Yes I know the main current that cranks the entire engine is supplied from the positive battery cable. But the fact that the purple wire (S?) is a heavy gauge wire means it handles a lot of juice, otherwise it would melt. If this circuit was experiencing a low voltage situation, then perhaps this "disc" would make only partial or fluttering contact with the battery terminal. (excuse my jargon as my lack of auto electrical experience shows)
Right now I have a 2nd 10 ga. wire screwed onto the solenoid stud. I routed it up near the battery. When I try to start the car and the solenoid only "clicks", I can simply place the key in the "on" position, then I open the hood, touch the jumper wire to the positive battery post, and the starter cranks real fine and the car starts. This allows me to move the car around. If this was the only car I had to drive, then I would probably just take it to a shop, or worst, maybe I would install a pushbutton switch under the dash to keep me moving along!
I wonder how long it will be till I simply drive it to an automotive electrical place.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dannoman:
Right now I have a 2nd 10 ga. wire screwed onto the solenoid stud. I routed it up near the battery. When I try to start the car and the solenoid only "clicks", I can simply place the key in the "on" position, then I open the hood, touch the jumper wire to the positive battery post, and the starter cranks real fine and the car starts. This allows me to move the car around. If this was the only car I had to drive, then I would probably just take it to a shop, or worst, maybe I would install a pushbutton switch under the dash to keep me moving along!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just stick a ford solenoid between your new wire and the battery and move the purple wire to the ford solenoid s terminal and you'll be set: http://personal.riverusers.com/~mcphelps/solenoid.html

One thing I haven't seen yet is a test of your continuity to GROUND. You can have all the "juice" in the world, good cables, hot battery, etc. - but if "eddie electron" can't get back to the battery, you're chasing ghosts. In my experience, about 80% of electrical gremlins are from the easily forgotten return path of electricity. Make sure the starter is getting metal to metal contact to the block (no paint), and check your block to firewall / frame connections.

If your convinced it's a wiring problem why don't you by an "engine harness" from one of the suppliers? They run about $100.00 and plug in pretty easy. Hopefully that will fix it but you still could have an wiring problem from the fuse box to the ignition switch and those dash harnesses aren't cheap.

What size cables do you have running from your battery to your starter? (Also from negative post to ground). If they're not huge, replace them with some bigger ones. That's cheap and you'll be amazed at how much better the starter will crank (providing you don't have other issues).

You'll get more voltage (under load) to the solenoid and the starter.

Also, check the main junction block for a good, tight, clean connection. Check all your grounds as well. Don't just look at them, physically remove them, clean the terminal, the screw, and the grounding surface, and put them back on nice and tight.

Doing all the above might keep you from needing to buy more expensive things.

I use a Ford solenoid and heat shield, and I've used 'em for years. Good heavy gauge cables work better with or without these items.

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My Web Page (http://www.landry-family.com) (updated 06-21-02)

"Long Live Freedom!"

Chad Landry
TC Member #643
ACES Member #4556
'68 El Camino, 357, L31 Vortec heads, 700R4,
8.2 10-bolt, 3.55 gears, Auburn Pro Posi.

The first chance I get I will check this grounding idea. Right now I have 2 engine to firewall groundstraps, but this is an easy thing to try.

I followed your guy's advice and have been checking out wiring throughout the car. I cleaned ground connections and added a new ground wire from the negative battery cable connection on the ac bracket back to the firewall.
I bypassed the neutral safety switch, no improvement.
I took the following voltmeter readings:
&gt; Battery posts: 14.5v
&gt; Battery while cranking: 12v
&gt; 12 ga purple wire at "S" terminal of solenoid: 8v when engine will crank; 6v when only the clicking sound is heard - this slowly raises to 8v if you continue to hold the key in the "start" position.
&gt; At the 12 ga wires on the neutral safety switch: 8v when engine will crank.
So the the snafu is before the neutral safety switch - unless I can find a bad connection elsewhere, is the ignition switch the last thing left to check?
When attempting to remove the ignition switch from the dash, I unscrewed the retaining collar from the dash but was unable to pull the switch out from behind - it was real loose but apparently the tumbler was holding it in place. Anyone removed one of these lately? The face of the tumbler has a hole in it, I assume for popping it loose, and there is a springy feel when you insert a pin through the hole in the accessory position. Does this sound correct?

Iginition lock removal instructions (http://www.chevelles.com/archive/files/68ignrem.htm)

Before you do ANYTHING else. Where do you have the negative (ground) battery cable connected? If it isn't connected directly to the block, DO IT! Do this first and then post the outcome. This is an easy problem to fix. As long as the solenoid pulls in, the starter gets ALL of it's voltage from the LARGE POSITVE AND NEGATIVE CABLES!

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MalibuJerry350
TC Member #1279
Original owner '70 Chevelle.
580,000+ miles on car.
Hey, if it's got wheels, DRIVE IT!
My Chevelle: http://hometown.aol.com/erie614/myhomepage/index.html

Another easy voltage drop to check is between the (+)post on your battery and the juction point on your horn relay.

Thanks for all the advice everyone! Gene, I'll check that relay as soon as I can open the hood.
Some of you have been steering me towards a grounding problem. I'd like to try attaching the negative bat cable direct to the block, but it's not long enough. The ac bracketry it's currently attached to has 6-7 bolts going into the engine, although some are painted. Right now I have 3 engine to firewall, 2 battery to sheetmetal, and 1 battery to engine ground wires.
This I don't get - if my starter cranks great when I jump my positive cable directly to the 's' solenoid terminal, then what is different about the way the car is grounded when using the ignition key instead?
You can also get full starter performance by crossing a screwdriver on the 's' terminal and big bat terminal on the solenoid. Anyone ever have to do this to get a car home?
8 volts coming down the wire to the solenoid has got to be off of specs! I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for some ignition switch inadequacy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dannoman:
This I don't get - if my starter cranks great when I jump my positive cable directly to the 's' solenoid terminal, then what is different about the way the car is grounded when using the ignition key instead?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I think if it were a ground problem, jumping the solenoid wouldn't do any good.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gene McGill:
I agree. I think if it were a ground problem, jumping the solenoid wouldn't do any good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, actually it would...up to a point. If your primary wiring from the battery, through the ignition switch and to the solenoid is introducing ANY resistance AT ALL in the circuit, a little resistance in your ground return will aggravate the situation. By jumping the solenoid terminals, you can actually compensate for a bad ground. WHY you ask? Simple. By jumping the solenoid directly, you are elminating a fair amount of wiring from the equation, and the resulting resistance, alowing more voltage to reach the solenoid. A long time ago I drove myself nuts with the same problem with my Chevelle. I even ran a new wire from the battery to the horn relay terminal. Checked my voltage all along the way, through the bulkhead connector, the neutral safety switch, back out through the connector and right to the starter solenoid "S" terminal. When the problem occurred, I measured around 8 volts down at the starter. Well, I moved the ground cable from the alternator bracket to am exhaust manifold bolt and the voltage returned and normal operation was restored! This was around 1977 or so. Why can this happen? Take a GOOD look at the alternator bracket. It's held on by three bolts. Two are at the water pump, which has a gasket between IT and the block. The water pump bolts are subjected to water and corrosion. The top of the bracket bolts to the thermostat housing bolt. Housing is, again, insulated from the block by a gasket and the bolts are exposed to water in the manifold...more corrosion. A little resistance at ANY of these places CAN and WILL cause trouble. I used to actually carry a long screwdriver with the shank covered with electrical tape so I could slip it between the exhaust manifold to jump the solenoid terminals!! I eventually cleaned up the bolts and the holes they thread into and have reinstalled the ground cable to the alternator bracket. However, whenever I change the thermostat, I remove all the bolts and wire brush everything for maximum contact.


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MalibuJerry350
TC Member #1279
Original owner '70 Chevelle.
580,000+ miles on car.
Hey, if it's got wheels, DRIVE IT!
My Chevelle: http://hometown.aol.com/erie614/myhomepage/index.html

"By jumping the solenoid directly, you are elminating a fair amount of wiring from the equation, and the resulting resistance, alowing more voltage to reach the solenoid."

This is correct, but does not have anything to do with the grounds.
Every single voltage drop that you are eliminating by jumpering the solenoid terminals is in the positive lead between the battery (+) and the s terminal. If jumpering the solenoid just gave you 9 volts, which is enough to engage the solenoid,and may imply a 4 volt drop in the ground lines, having that much of a drop in the ground would surely cause cranking problems. Just the fact that the starter turns over just fine when the solenoid does engage would imply that the ground is OK, since if it is able to supply a return path for all of those cranking amps, the current required to engage the solenoid would be considered diddley( a new electrical term http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif). If it can't handle the 35 amps for the solenoid, it won't stand a chance against the hundreds of cranking amps. If it drops even 2 volts with the solenoid current, that would mean it had a resitance of .057 ohms. Try to draw even a 100 amps of cranking current through that cable and your going to drop close to 6 volts across it, meaning your starter will only see the other 6 volts. The cable will also be dissipating 600 watts, which in a two foot cable means "HOT!".

While there will be some voltage drop in the ground lines, it can't be anywere near the drop that is being seen here, and still have the starter able to crank.

I'd like to just add that some aftermarket solenoids are junk. The aftermarket one on my car drew 30A. The GM one I installed draws 12A. Big difference when you're dealing with a bunch of wiring. I have had it not work once but the car was very hot, probably 220 to 230 degrees.

You are on the right track measuring the voltage at the different points along the wiring. Basically, the purple wire to the ignition switch then the big red wire from switch to fuse box then fuse box to horn relay then horn relay to battery. If you find one point at 8V and the next at 12V then the problem is between those points.

I too don't get why jumping the solenoid is any better than using the key. Once it engages, you always have the same electrical connections powering the starter motor. You may be right about the switch in the solenoid not contacting correctly at the lower voltage.

Peter

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gene McGill:
"By jumping the solenoid directly, you are elminating a fair amount of wiring from the equation, and the resulting resistance, alowing more voltage to reach the solenoid."

This is correct, but does not have anything to do with the grounds.
Every single voltage drop that you are eliminating by jumpering the solenoid terminals is in the positive lead between the battery (+) and the s terminal. If jumpering the solenoid just gave you 9 volts, which is enough to engage the solenoid,and may imply a 4 volt drop in the ground lines, having that much of a drop in the ground would surely cause cranking problems. Just the fact that the starter turns over just fine when the solenoid does engage would imply that the ground is OK, since if it is able to supply a return path for all of those cranking amps, the current required to engage the solenoid would be considered diddley( a new electrical term http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif). If it can't handle the 35 amps for the solenoid, it won't stand a chance against the hundreds of cranking amps. If it drops even 2 volts with the solenoid current, that would mean it had a resitance of .057 ohms. Try to draw even a 100 amps of cranking current through that cable and your going to drop close to 6 volts across it, meaning your starter will only see the other 6 volts. The cable will also be dissipating 600 watts, which in a two foot cable means "HOT!".

While there will be some voltage drop in the ground lines, it can't be anywere near the drop that is being seen here, and still have the starter able to crank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gene,
When this problem occurred around 25 years ago, I was able to do EXACTLY the same thing by jumping the solenoid. While jumping it from above, one day, I actually saw an arc between the alternator bracket AND the thermostat housing stud onto which it attaches. After the arc ocurred, the starter cranked. After 40 years of electronic troubleshooting I've learned one thing: Don't EVER overlook the obvious. Everything sounds great, in theory, but actual practice can be quite the opposite. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif



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MalibuJerry350
TC Member #1279
Original owner '70 Chevelle.
580,000+ miles on car.
Hey, if it's got wheels, DRIVE IT!
My Chevelle: http://hometown.aol.com/erie614/myhomepage/index.html

I pulled my ignition switch last night. Thanks for the link, Gene. I wouldn't have been able to figure that part about rotating the lock past accessory position on my own.
I immediately jumped the 'bat' connection to the 'sol' connection on the plug several times............. same intermittent starter performance.
Unfortunately I did not take a volt reading while under there. I did however check the the horn relay - over 12 volts going in and coming out. I think the wire coming out is next routed through a high-speed fan relay on the air conditioner, this probably should be checked also.
About the wiring on this car - it all looks excellent. The tape around the looms is mostly intact, the firewall connections feel tight and have sealant covering them, and there is no sign a mouse ever got into this '68. This was a small town old lady 4 door - you know the type - preserved fairly well except for numerous parking lot scrapes and an oil burning engine, from all those 3-block trips to the post office and church.
This problem with this starter - it happened overnight with no previous slow starting symptoms, that's why a grounding problem sounds unlikely. But who can argue with a guy who kept a car running for 580,000 miles!
I will take your advice Jerry and buy a longer negative battery cable. This is sure an easy thing to try.

Whatever the problem turns out to be, keep us posted. There's always the one odd-ball thing that no one thought of, that could be the "gremlin"! But, always remember, that even when a part is "new", it doesn't mean that it's "good". Troubleshooting by "long distance" is a trap shoot, for sure.+ Hopefully you'll have your problem solved soon.

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MalibuJerry350
TC Member #1279
Original owner '70 Chevelle.
580,000+ miles on car.
Hey, if it's got wheels, DRIVE IT!
My Chevelle: http://hometown.aol.com/erie614/myhomepage/index.html

Thursday night I installed my new negative battery cable. I attached it to an exhaust manifold /ac bracket stud. Everything was sanded bright and new a new star washer was used. There was no change in starter operation. Out of the 30 automobiles I have owned thus far, this one has the most battery cable and ground connection attention put into it as of yet. This simple test should eliminate grounding as the source of my problems.
Saturday I took the car on a little trip to a friend's farm. He has an extensive electrical background and possesses a calibrated multi-tester. We ran my '68 through a multitude of tests.
First off, if you ever test a wire like the "S" solenoid one on my starter, DO NOT only try it with the wire attached to anything on the car. Hooked up to the solenoid, it read 8 volts. Unhooked, it read the correct 12 volts. So my wiring is probably fine. Just for grins, we tested the ignition switch and the ignition switch plug. Everything was 3 ohms or less except for the green ground wire which was a little over 10.
We pulled the starter, sat it on the bench, attached jumper cables to it, and except for a little sloppy noise in the drive, it worked every time it was tested. However, my friend was able to test this motor in such a way as to determine the voltage it was running on - and that ended up being only 6 volts.
So, apparently the fresh out of the box rebuilt starter was defective and behaved exactly like the 1 1/2-year-old starter it was replacing. The only unknown is why I was able to jump start my car with a 10 ga. wire 100% of the time, with faster starter rpms, than when using the key.
I will now gladly accept the advice from everyone who stated these parts store rebuilds are junk, and walk into GM today and purchase a new manufacture starter. Thanks everyone for all your advice, especially Jerry and Gene for your extra attention. See you out on the roads.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dannoman:
Unhooked, it read the correct 12 volts. So my wiring is probably fine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason you see full voltage when disconnected is because you aren't drawing any current through it and not current means no voltage drops.

Hopefully a new GM starter/solenoid will take care of your problem. I would aslo install a heat sheild at the same time (couldn't hurt). If it doesn't fix your problem, I would just install a Ford solenoid and be done with it.