I am sure most have seen the sellers, vin-number-aged and Jim Clemens. on ebay of any GM doc you can want for your Chevy from Tank Sticker and Buld sheets to POP and trim paltes. Conveniently his location is not listed. How the heck does this indivicual get away with this? A disclaimer that it is for fun seems to me not to cut it. These items are counterfeits and they are meant to deceive. It sure ruins the hobby for everyone. I would think that the Postal authorities or other federal people would put a stop to this. I ran into a guy at a show a couple of months ago that had purchased the whole shooting match from this guy for his 65 Corvette. He did not see anything wrong with it! I was hard pressed to see the difference from the real thing. They are that good. Nice Christmas present for th owner that has everything,except real paperwork for his clone car.:noway:

The guy making these papers has to know that some people will eventually use this stuff for the wrong reason. MONEY. Perhaps the bottom of the page should be printed with "SAMPLE ONLY" even if in small letters. As an uncle once said, "Some people are so crooked, they could sleep comfortably on a cork screw."

The guy making these papers has to know that some people will eventually use this stuff for the wrong reason. MONEY. Perhaps the bottom of the page should be printed with "SAMPLE ONLY" even if in small letters. As an uncle once said, "Some people are so crooked, they could sleep comfortably on a cork screw."

They most definitely know what these docs are being used for or they would not charge what they do for a "novelty" This corvette guy told me he paid over $500.00 for a tank sticker,POP and window sticker.:eek:

Every BB Chevelle I have ever owned has/had Canadian docs. to back up it's pedigree.

That said, I would not have a problem purchasing a build-sheet documented BB car, my understanding is the fake TT and build-sheets leave much to be desired and when examined by an experienced eye they are easily recognizable.

This may change in the future as the scammers become more educated, but for know I feel confident that they are still distinguishable to the trained eye, or so it seems.

Every BB Chevelle I have ever owned has/had Canadian docs. to back up it's pedigree.

That said, I would not have a problem purchasing a build-sheet documented BB car, my understanding is the fake TT and build-sheets leave much to be desired and when examined by an experienced eye they are easily recognizable.

This may change in the future as the scammers become more educated, but for know I feel confident that they are still distinguishable to the trained eye, or so it seems.

John

I have had Corvetes for thirty years and Ive got to say that when I compared my real POP and tank sticker with what this guy showed me it was scary how good it was and I knew it was fake.

If anyone had a prayer of prosecuting the maker of these it would be Chevrolet.
I guess it's not a priority at the moment.
Have you corresponded with anyone at the National Corvette Museum about this?
Someone with some connections should make some noise about it.

How would making reproduction stickers be any different then buying radiator hoses with the GM logo on them, or a battery topper that says Delco? Or repro GM scripts or interior panels with logos on them. I hate to think some un-suspecting soul would pay big money for a car with fake paper,,, but,, if you cannot tell it is fake, what difference does it make?
If the quality is so good, no one can tell, who have you hurt, other then somebody who didn't think to get fake paper. I would never pay any kind of premium for any numbers or paper on a car as I say in all sales , buyer beware.

Can anyone post a e-bay link to one of Jim Clemens auctions? I would like to see how good they look.

I would assume (and it may be silly to do so) that reproduction hoses, battery toppers, scripts, emblems, etc. are licensed by GM, a fee paid, and these items are made to look new. I would think anyone would know they are reproductions and not 40+ years old. Same thing for 'original' style Goodyear and Firestone period correct tires; I wonder if they're made under license by Goodyear and Firestone?

I wonder if such items as trim tags, window stickers & build sheets are licensed by GM? These all have GM's name on them which implies they are from GM.

My take is the paperwork should be noted with REPRODUCTION with a background watermark and that should be the responsibility of the printers making the blank forms. I don't think a simple note at the bottom/top/edge would suffice. Trim tags & warranty card should fall into this same category by simply imprinting REPRODUCTION or REPLACEMENT somewhere on the item.

I assume everyone knows it's illegal to reproduce a VIN plate because that's a legal description of the car and you never reproductions advertised. Even eBay pulls auctions for VIN plates even though they still allow trim tags to be sold, used or blank.

Oklahoma passed a law a little over a year ago making it a criminal offense to (in essence) swap, modify, or replace a trim tag on any 1953 to 1977 motor vehicle unless the replacement tag has the wording REPLACEMENT TAG measuring at least 1/8" high.

I don't think I'd have any qualms about any aftermarket paperwork, trim tags, or warranty cars that stated they were replacement or reproduction items regardless of what they sold for. Then, any propective buyer (or show judge) would know the item is NOT original to the car and then they can decide if it's a true representation of what the car was born with or if it represents what the car is now. This brings up the question of why these reproduction documents have their appearance changed to represent age. Simple answer, IMO, it's to pass them off as original to the car thereby implying the car was born with what the paperwork says it was born with and thereby perpetuating a fraud.

That might not be as important on something like a Malibu hardtop that changed the paint or trim color and had a trim tag made to match but when one is talking about a home or shop built 69-72 Chevelle SS that people will pay more for if paperwork is included - I think it becomes a different story.

A good case in point is a red 1966 L78 convertible being advertised as a real, matching numbers car...complete with restamped engine to 'prove' it. Only problem was the original trim tag showed a Powerglide transmission, a definate no-no for a L78 car. After a couple of no-go shots on eBay in the $80k-$90k range it began appearing on other sales sites but, magically, the trim tag had been changed to reflect a manual transmission which the L78 required. All of the other data, the date, body numbers, paint/trim, etc. are identical - except for than pesky transmission code in group 2. I happen to have photos of both trim tags and it's very difficult to tell them apart. Was the code changed to make the tag reflect the car as it is now or to be one more piece of 'proof' the car was a real L78 matching numbers convertible?

Reproduce GM stuff without their ok, and you risk losing everything you have. They definitely like their cut and do protect their copyrights. It would be nice if GM showed some interest here as well. A friend is having Beaumont scripts reproduced with GM blessing. He wasn't taking any chances.

... I assume everyone knows it's illegal to reproduce a VIN plate because that's a legal description of the car and you never reproductions advertised. Even eBay pulls auctions for VIN plates even though they still allow trim tags to be sold, used or blank. ...

EBay does NOT pull ads on on VIN plates. They continue to sell them, as well as titles, dispite their statement that both of these are "prohibited items". They only pull something when it is reported numerous times. Only a few get pulled. I see titles and VIN plates on EBay all the time. Often they are in the same listing. Even when pointed out to EBAY their response is that they reall can't read the photos so they are not sure that they are VIN plates and the seller is paying their fee and anyone that reports these items is just a whiner. EBay doesn't care as long as they get their fees. GM, Ford, and the like do not care either! What puzzles me though is when it is discussed on sites like this that so many people see no harm. On the '40s - '60 cars that little VIN plate is the ONLY ID on the entire car as many have crate motors, aftermarket drivelines, or unidentifiable driveline components from other cars! The thing that really is scarey is how many stolen cars get exported in shipping containers to other countries. How many disappear due to "just for fun" paperwork and "collectible" VIN tags.

EBay does NOT pull ads on on VIN plates. They continue to sell them, as well as titles, dispite their statement that both of these are "prohibited items". They only pull something when it is reported numerous times. Only a few get pulled. I see titles and VIN plates on EBay all the time. Often they are in the same listing. Even when pointed out to EBAY their response is that they reall can't read the photos so they are not sure that they are VIN plates and the seller is paying their fee and anyone that reports these items is just a whiner. With the millions of items listed daily I can certainly understand that eBay can't police everything. I think you contradict yourself when you first sayEBay does NOT pull ads on on VIN plates. but then sayThey only pull something when it is reported numerous times. Only a few get pulled.I've seen ads pulled in as little as an hour after being reported. I, and several others here on TC, have reported VIN sales to eBay and never recall eBay every calling any of us whiners, or even offering us cheese. :D I have even sent notification to NCIB about eBay ads but I've never heard back from them. At least eBay sends an automated response.

Now, how long there were up or how many times they were reported is naturally unknown. I have never seen a VIN plate run its full auction time but don't spend all day there either. The sellers often have contact with bidders or bidders will contact the seller if the auction gets pulled and the item may get sold anyway. Nothing anyone can do about that. Personally i think eBay should ban not only the sellers but every bidder but we know that's not going to happen. And I'm sure eBay isn't the only place it's being done but eBay is the most visible.

Sure, eBay is in business to make money. They make me money through the ads on my sites. But, I guess it's like Microsoft, Walmart, or any other company that has a powerful position in the marketplace, they're the easiest to target for comdemnation about how they do (or do not do) business. I'd wager that if Apple, Linux, Firefox, K-Mart, Target or Cars-On-Line were in the positions of Microsoft, Walmart or eBay, they'd get targeted the same way.

We'll never stop the ads completely but if I can disrupt a sellers 'illegal' auction, I'll do it everytime.

I have also seen this guys work first hand and agree with Rob, its very good. I have a good friend that bought a build sheet and window sticker from him for his 70 Chevelle LS 5. Now before you go off the deep end listen to why he bought it. We found his original build sheet to his car while reupholstering his seats last winter. Trouble is was that it was stuck to the bottom of his seat frame and was not coming off without destroying it. We took pictures of it, so he has proof. I agree with alot of you guys on here about the fake paper work but I think that this in a way has a place in our hobby, just like the rosettire rivets and trim tag rivets. I know this is not everyones reason for buying his product, but it worked out good for him.

One of the points I made. If the item is to represent the original that's damaged, I'd find that acceptable as long as it's noted on the new paperwork (that can't be erased) and the original (or photos) are available. One caveat, if the car is ever sold I would not allow the paperwork to go with it - now the buyer has something to work from if their intent is to flip the car.

EBay does NOT pull ads on on VIN plates. They continue to sell them, as well as titles, dispite their statement that both of these are "prohibited items".
Not true - I've taken the time to report many and they are pulled. In some cases the sellers have been banned, as well.

They only pull something when it is reported numerous times. Only a few get pulled. The more reports the better, but how would YOU know how many reports and how many are pulled?? - you don't

I see titles and VIN plates on EBay all the time. Often they are in the same listing. Even when pointed out to EBAY their response is that they reall can't read the photos so they are not sure that they are VIN plates and the seller is paying their fee and anyone that reports these items is just a whiner.The only response you get from eBay is a form message about your report with a privacy statement saying that they can't share what will happen but that they will look into the matter. If you talk to them on the phone, they take info down and state that they will look into it. -

EBay doesn't care as long as they get their fees. GM, Ford, and the like do not care either! Not true - Who have you talked to? Give us a name
What puzzles me though is when it is discussed on sites like this that so many people see no harm. On the '40s - '60 cars that little VIN plate is the ONLY ID on the entire car as many have crate motors, aftermarket drivelines, or unidentifiable driveline components from other cars!
The thing that really is scarey is how many stolen cars get exported in shipping containers to other countries. How many disappear due to "just for fun" paperwork and "collectible" VIN tags.I've not seen anyone defending the felony act of making VIN tags.
Besides a VIN plate vehicles also have hidden ID numbers - Concealed VIN.
If you are personally aware of cars being loaded into shipping containers with illegal paperwork it is your duty to report the crime.

Dan

Here's one pulled within a few hours

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251006

I have also seen this guys work first hand and agree with Rob, its very good. I have a good friend that bought a build sheet and window sticker from him for his 70 Chevelle LS 5. Now before you go off the deep end listen to why he bought it. We found his original build sheet to his car while reupholstering his seats last winter. Trouble is was that it was stuck to the bottom of his seat frame and was not coming off without destroying it. We took pictures of it, so he has proof. I agree with alot of you guys on here about the fake paper work but I think that this in a way has a place in our hobby, just like the rosettire rivets and trim tag rivets. I know this is not everyones reason for buying his product, but it worked out good for him.
If your friend had the photo of the original build sheet with the critical SS code intact and he decided to leave it in place after photographing it, (great choice) then why spend big money for a fake aged recreation?? - I don't understand the reasoning here.
A simple photo of the sheet would work, or a new form with the info put in place along with the remark that it is a recreation of the original which is still in the seat.

Dan

I'm sorry but how do you know a picture of a build sheet that is stuck to the bottom of a seat spring is a picture from the car you are looking at? Not arguing or anything, just wondering how you would know that picture is from a particular car or that the build sheet in the photo is an original and not a reproduction aged and stuck to the seat spring? This all requires trust for the seller, none of it is guaranteed.

The reason that he did it is because he wanted the build sheet to display when he shows his car. He is not looking to sell the car, and would not try to imply to anyone that it is the real build sheet. I'm sure if it ever came time to sell and prove to some one what his car really is, he could pull the seat cover back off to prove what it is.

I hate fake documentation I am finding it on my car and it just makes me angry that someone would send a later owner down the road of is it real or not, I just want to punch who ever does this kind of junk in the face, they really have it coming

Here is a link to the ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-65-67-CORVETTE-CAMARO-CHEVELLE-PROTECT-O-PLATE_W0QQitemZ140264003016QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m140264003016&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245)for the POP

Here is another link for the window sticker (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/59-82-CORVETTE-WINDOW-STICKER-TO-YOUR-SPECIFICATIONS_W0QQitemZ130274711951QQcmdZViewItem QQptZMotors_Manuals_Literature?hash=item1302747119 51&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C2 40%3A1318)