I have a base 350 with a performer RPM cam, intake, and carb.

So i've found out recently that this cam is very radical and requires a higher compression, right now i have stock heads, so my engine isn't realizing its potential, when i bought hte cam edelbrock didn't have the compression "warning" on their website so i kinda got screwed.

Anyway we are looking into buying new heads that will allow us to achieve this engines potential, we'd prefer something that we can just bolt on, like edelbrocks performer rpm heads, but i'd like to know if there is something cheaper or a better bang for hte buck, i dont need the heads to be aluminum and i dont want to bore the engine at all, we want to do the head swap without pulling the engine again which we know is possible.

That's a terrible cam. Just an old generic grind that's been around forever; nothing special. You can get it from dozens of the second-tier grinders (the ones that don't do any R&D) for alot less that paying for the Edelbrock name.

You might do alot better by swapping out the cam; instead of picking heads to "make up for" an inadequate cam.

Incidentally, the RPM "power package" that you have, will make more power with almost any other cam in it.

What heads do you have now? What gears, converter, etc. ... how is the rest of the car set up?

Please, the old RPM cam isn't all that bad, it's just that it needs to be installed in a motor that has high enough compression to utilize it's older style design like it was made for back in the days when we had 11 to 1 CR. stock motors and plenty of high octane leaded Ethyl gasoline to feed them.

You drop that cam in a stock '70-1/2, LT-1, a a '66, 350hp/327 L-79 or a '64 'Vette, 365hp/327 carb'ed motor AND it will run fine if you can get good enough gasoline to feed it!!

It's just that it tends ta be a little lazy at lower rpm's in lower CR. motors is all..

pdq67

Its a base 350, 1 3/4 hooker comp headers, not sure about hte stall convertor though, 3.73 rear no posi.

Im not changing hte cam, the work required to do so isn't a problem, but the project needs to be able to be completed in 3 days because come monday morning i need a car to get to school in.

Browsing jegs i found the heads vary in price but not necessarily in their performance numbers. What heads do i need to get atleast 9.5:1 compression or higher for my engine to get some kick...

I'd put some 64cc heads on. That's about the best you can do without extra work. If the pistons are cast rebuilder flat top pistons and you use a .015" gasket and the deck is not cut, the CR will be around 9.73 with a .060" quench. If the pistons have the correct pin height, the CR is around 10.19:1 with a .040" quench (the better choice). Either of these CR's will help over the 8.18 you might have now (.045 deck, .041" gasket, 76cc heads) or, given the correct pin height, 8.49 CR. In either case, the DCR (7.01 for the 10.19CR) is still pretty low and you could probably run on 87 octane.

i run it on the premium around here anyway, 93 i believe, ive noticed no difference between the 3 choices, (87, 89, 93) but for merely a mental thing i use the 93 lol.

My pistons are whatever comes with the base 350 engine so i have no clue what they are.

Do you guys recommend any brand over another, i kinda narrowed it down to either world or edelbrock but am leaning towards world due to their nicer prices.

argh i think i have these:

Cast pistons (dished)

according to:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=146671&prmenbr=361

which is the crate engine we are assuming the previous owner bought.

how bad is that going to hurt me?


Heres what me and a friend narrowed it down to, can you tell me if this is waht you would go with?

Dart "Iron-Eagle"
64cc Chambers, 180cc Intake Runner, Straight Plug Heads
301-10121111 SB-Chevy Iron-Eagle 64cc Chamber, 180cc Intake Head, 2.02''Int/1.60''Exh, Straight Plugs, Complete | $484.99 (Each)

So, you have a duplicate, part number for part nuber, of a 180 HP 70s 350. It might be "260 HP" on an engine stand (perfect engine world); but it's 180 HP in a chassis (real world), just like about every 350 4-barrel car in the 70s was.

Maybe you do need a set of heads..... but not for the reason of making the engine match the cam. You just have really anti-performance heads in a general way. That motor is not built as a "performance" piece, in any manner way shape or form; it's designed as a replacement engine for large fleet customers, where a failed engine takes a revenue-earning vehicle out of service, and they just want to get it back on the road and making money as quickly as possible. A good mental image to keep in mind, is a phone company van. That's what that's meant for.

It has about 8¼:1 compression as it stands right now. 64cc heads will bump it up to high 8s or very low 9s. Still not really enough CR to use a cam with that much seat timing.

Yes that RPM cam really is that bad. People will tell you all day long about "I had one, it ran great"; what they won't tell you, because they wouldn't be telling you that if they could tell you this other thing instead or in addition to that, is how the motor ran with a better choice of cam in it. They'd be telling you instead how much better the other cam worked. It has too much "advertised" (seat) duration for the .050" duration it gives you, and not enough lift, and really looonnnnnggg slllloooooowwwwww ramps that just sort of gently and lazily mosey the valves up and down, instead of snapping them open and shut quickly, to allow maximum cyl fill. If you're going to change heads, that's the perfect opportunity to get that POS out of there, and put something good in its place.

Look at something about like a Comp XE262H, or a Crane or Lunati of similar specs and design. That would be an intake duration in the 220° range, with about 10° more exhaust duration, and about 30° less seat timing (leak factor) than that thing you've got now. Any of those modern designs will open the valves much more quickly, and hold them farther open for a greater portion of their open time; without the penalty of barely cracking them open and holding them that way for so long that they just create a giant compression leak without adding anything to the flow.

numbers dont lie though, and short of not being bored 30 over after these heads ill have a 350 nearly equivelent to that of edelbrocks example, which means that its going ot make numbers around where i would like to see them. Im not going to swap hte cam, i dont have hte time to pull apart hte front of hte engine again.

ill wait and see what pat says because frankly i think you are hte most negative person in the world and give the worst case scenario of everything, so your "advice" is pointless to me.

show me dyno results of an engine with the "rpm" package than one with teh same package except your cam, and than ill believe you, but the point of hte RPM package is that they all work together, and hte above heads are pretty much exactly what edelbrock offers except non-aluminum which saves me 200 bucks.

It might be negative advice & not what you want to hear but I can tell you it is just about spot on ;)

If that is a crate engine it will have 1.560c/h pistons with about a 10-12cc dish which means they will be in the hole about .025 nominally.

If you put the 64cc heads on with a shim gasket you will get the compression to about 9.5 - 9.7 which will help a bunch but what you were told about the cam is very factual & neither I nor RB need to dyno it to tell you this,, it comes from the experience of changing a number of those cams from about 20 different places including EDE, Summit, Jegs, brand X & a host of others with the same generic cam.

It will work & you will be pleasantly surprised by the head & gasket upgrade but that doesn't mean you shouldn't appreciate advice freely given by someone who has been there & has built a "couple" of engines over the years even if you don't like the wording.

For an iron head, your choice of the Dart 180cc is excellent with FelPro 1094 gaskets.

if he said it like you i would appreciate it. unfortunatly he basically said "you are an idiot, you just spent $1000.00 on engine upgrades and you bought crap, and now your hopeless".

How much of a hp/tq hit am i really taking with this cam instead of the recomended one? Do you think these headers are worth it?

Originally posted by Chirp08:
if he said it like you i would appreciate it. unfortunatly he basically said "you are an idiot, you just spent $1000.00 on engine upgrades and you bought crap, and now your hopeless".

How much of a hp/tq hit am i really taking with this cam instead of the recomended one? Do you think these headers are worth it? LOL,,, I didn't read the idiot part into the response & I highly doubt it was meant that way.

I can't give you numbers but a guess would be a 30-40lb ft gain below 3500-4000 where you want it. The HP number isn't really that important but the cam you have would probably make about the same, might even make a little more at peak if you need braggin rights ;)
As for headers my choice would be 1 5/8" with as small a collector as is available.

yeah i need to get a new set of headers, but this time ceramic, i originally got hooker comp headers and well, the paint pealed and now they look horrible, what a waste of money, mind you that the rest of the engine after 6 months of daily driving still looks brand new, but the headers did their own thing.

any recommendations, the cheapest ive found were ceramic hooker comp headers, the super comp were a bit expensive, any ohter options? i dont want shorties i prefer the long tubes.

I apologize if it came off that way, I certainly didn't intend it to be so.

It's all too common for people who get into this hobby to be unfamiliar with details of things, and to believe glowing claims of superiority from companies with good reputations (GM, Edelbrock). So, they tend to take what the ads say, rather too literally; without realizing what's behind them. If you've ever heard people talk about how they bought this piece, and it says it adds 20 HP; and this other piece, and it adds 15 HP; and this really expensive piece, and it adds 30 HP; and there's 5 HP here, and 3 HP there, and 8 HP somewhere else, in various litle gadgets and gizmos; and then I tuned it up, and that's worth 10 HP. I started out with a 175 HP LM1, so now I've got a 300 HP LS1 killer, even though it barely cracks the 14s...... you will recognize the problem immediately.

You've basically been victimized by the "I can get a motor for cheap" thing, where yes you have a motor, but it's like the absolute bare mimimum possible motor. It has low compression, so that it can run on the lowest possible grade of gas, when equipped with a cam like the one it came with (the 929) that produces low-end torque for moving heavy things; but it has no flow, so it won't make power at high RPMs. You've got one of the best street intakes there is (the RPM). You have a carb I don't like personally, but lots of other people do, and they can get pretty good results out of them; so it's at least something you can work with. Then, you've got a cam that was designed about the same time they designed dirt, when gas was alot cheaper than it is, and you couldn't get valve springs that would control valves on top of cams with really aggressive ramps, so it's just outdated. It "sounds" good, so in that respect it's a little like the Edelbrock "triangle of death" air cleaner; it's great for somebody that wants a motor to "sound like it's got a cam" so that it impresses innocent bystanders (like chrome engine parts often do), but they don't ever race it.

What you've got, is an extreme mismatch. A motor that wasn't intended or built as a "performance" motor, with no compression and no flow; and a cam that only works well in a motor with near 11:1 compression, and even then, can easily be beat. So, what you need, is a little bit of targeted upgrades. Fix what's wrong with the basic motor you've got, without tearing into its guts (which have the advantage of a good warranty), and put a cam that's more appropriate to the remainder of the combo in it, that takes advantage of a little of what we've learned as a species about cams in the last 35 years that I know of since it appeared.

Changing the heads is a good approach to the first part, and putting a better cam in it will .... put a better cam in it.

Again, I apologize if it sounds harsh, but we all start somewhere; sounds like you just got your first rude introduction to ad hype vs reality in this hobby. Places like this are a great way to de-mystify all those claims you see in magazines and catalogs; I wish the Internet had existed when I was starting out, I'd have avoided learning a bunch of lessons the hard way, too.

I have to agree with what was said. I ran a RPM cam for a couple years. Sounds great but in a low comression engine the bottom is extremely soft. Even with a 3000 stall converter and ported Sportsman II heads it never made the power it should (did run in the high 12's and made 105 mph but this was with 4.56 gears). Right after putting the SP IIs on I dynoed the car. 287 hp to the rear wheels. That's about 355 hp at the flywheel. Your situation is worse, you have dished pistons. At least the pin height should be correct as the engine comes from GM.

If you want to keep the same cam, go ahead with the head change. Use a .015" head gasket. You'll get what you get. Don't expect a big jump in power but it will probably be noticable. The heads will be usable if and when you decide to change the cam.

I have Dynomax coated headers on my bracket car and they fit will and seem to work well. But I don't have any others to compare them to. The left collector hangs a bit low. BTW, the Iron Eagle heads you mentioned, specs look about right for what you want. They should work well when you re-cam.

if i were to change the cam, how much hp/tq would i realistically get, is it honestly worth it, and even than, i still have the restrictive heads on there.


We also considered a 650 holley, but since the current carb is vacuum 2ndary, i cant do a double pu mper, correct? which means its not worth the swap?


I didn't buy this engine, my car was an origianl 396 (402) SS, the first owner worked the 396 and drag raced the car, than my neighbor bought it, pulled hte engine, the muncie, and put the 350 crate motor in, the same 350 crate motor you would buy today, i dont think its as crumby as you say, its just basic.

Nothing wrong with the engine, it's just not a performance engine. In it's design application it will probably run for well over 100,000 miles without any problems.

A smaller cam would wake up the lower rpm power a bunch. The heads are fine for that but will restrict the rpm the engine can go to. A cam in the 252-262 adv dur range would make the car more fun to drive than the RPM cam. If you do both the cam change and the 64cc heads, you can have a very strong running engine.

nah dont have time, this is my sr. year in highschool, so have until june, but spring break is out of hte question so the only week i have to do the work is christmas week, which will be for the headwork and before i change the cam id get ceramic headers, im just not convinced that hte cam swap is worth the work at this moment, if you said i could gain 50hp/50tq over what i have now, id do it, but frankly i see no real incentive.

Vortec heads and 1 5/8ths headers.

Originally posted by Rapid Robert:
Vortec heads and 1 5/8ths headers. Vortecs won't work with the RPM cam without being modified for more lift. That cam and those headers are killing your bottom end torque. It's your car and you have to do what you think is best, but there's no difference in the amount of work between a cam swap and swapping heads. If you spend some time studying what is involved in the swap you could do it in an afternoon and have it running the next day after the gasket sealer had time to set up. If you go to the main page on here you will see a link for "combos that work." Maybe that's a good place to start looking at your options before committing your money.

I bet you could to the heads AND cam in just a little over the time it takes to do the heads alone.

If you drive home from school friday, get to work immediately, work all the way through til next sunday night, that gives you almost 9 days that can be used to work on the car.

I did a complete engine swap and break in (1st timer) in the same amount of time.

Hey RB69 i know im kind of late on this, but you dont really want a cam to open and close super fast in a daily driver for the simple fact its very hard on valvetrain parts. When a cam closes too quickly there is a potential for valve bounce...hence why some of the guys buying XE hydraulic cams say they hear a ticking noise and the hydraulic cams almost sound like solids, just a thought.

i don't know about anyone else, but I could change the cam in less time than it would take me to swap heads anyway. to swap heads you have to take the intake off, to swap cams you don't need to take the heads off, you have to drain the cooling system either way, the balancer comes off in 5min, timing cover in a couple more min. ??
the cam is wrong unless he gets higher compression pistons anyway, so what good would the head swap really do? if it's a daily driver the edelbrock performer cam would work immensely better than the rpm cam. i'm not trying to **** you off, but the fella that gave the advice that upset you earlier in this thread, was about 100% right.

If you go to the main page on here you will see a link for "combos that work." Maybe that's a good place to start looking[/QUOTE]

Can someone give more details on where the link is for this. I can't seem to locate it :confused:

Here ya go.
http://www.chevelles.com/racing/index.shtml

I am also wondering about the time difference between swapping heads and doing a cam change. Heck, you still have to pull all the pushrods out, and that means adjusting the valves all over again when you're done.

HOWEVER...I did a cam swap back when I was just out of high school and it was a disaster, to put it mildly. I didn't have the kind of help I needed with it and made some bad mistakes. What was worse, the cam was way too big for my combo and it ran like worthless crap after that.
I fixed it months later. I put in a different cam. My friend said, "I thought you were crazy when you said you were going to do another cam swap in a weekend! The first one took you a month!"
The second one took me a few days. I could do it more quickly now, but we don't know what tools and experience Chirp has. He might not even have a garage or even adequate electricity to work with, or even a decent set of tools. Lots of us own stuff like balancer pullers and installers, or we know of ways to get around those obstacles. This may not be the same situation.

That said, having "been there and done that" exact same thing. I was much happier with my car after swapping to a smaller cam. I had a factory low-compression 350 from 1973.

Just relating my experience.

I have a RPM cam in my 67 right now, so here is some real time advice. Don't Do It!

My compression is higher than yours, I'm running flat tops, .020 overbore, RPM intake and cam, 750 vac secondary carb, with 64 cc GMPP Bowtie Heads.

The combo has about 75K miles on it and I drive it comfortabley and reliably all over the country.

I have a 4:10 posi, with a 3.06 first gear 700 trans with a 2600 stall custom converter.

ITS A PIG, my bottom end sucks. The car is a pig under 3000 RPM. And thats where you spend most of your time, and thats where you have the most fun. The only reason I can spin the tires, is the 4:10, my deep first gear, and the stall convertor. Even with all that I have to rev out past 6k to get a high 13 second time slip.

You are in high school, you should be going through tires as fast as I go through Advil for my aching back.

Put in a smaller cam that has lots of low end, you'll be happy, you'll have lots of fun, you'll run great for a long time, and most of all you could be the guy in the yearbook photo doing a giant smoky burnout.

The reason I still have the RPM cam, is the combo has been reliable, and as a father of 4, who takes his kids long distances in the Chevelle I'm leaving well enough alone...FOR NOW.

Don't get me wrong, when I can afford to, and can justify it to the wife... the RPM cam will come out and a cam of current technology will go in. Besides I gotta have something to drive while I do my current 68 wagon project.

change the cam. gasket set-$28, cam and lifters-$100-$175. You'll be way happy when it's done. I still think a XE268 or slightly smaller would wake this thing up, even better yet would be an XE4X4 grind. When you get some good flowing heads the cam will still work fine and the new heads will extend the cam's operating range. I bet your cranking compression is only about 125psi with the current cam, and should be 150-170 if you want some descent power.

Chad, if you don't agree with Bob's advice above...for now get the CHEAPEST set of SMALLEST chamber Iron heads you can find. Not being a small block user, not real familiar with what's out there, but 64cc, or even some milled down more IF they come with a matched intake.

Anyway, get some small chambers on there AND , at the same time ( since it'll be a snap with the heads off, go to Summit and buy some of their generic small tube headers. They'll come with some sort of weak paint which needs to be stripped and repainted ( or Dynomax ceramics if you have the extra $100).

Giving that cam some compression and getting proper sized pipes on there will help bunches. Then if you decide to really wake this crate up, you can recam it, and give the new cam a much better paltofrm to work on. (9.5:1 through better heads and proper headers.

You probably won't want to change cam timing, even if it's off, but I would, at the same time, check my cam timing using the simple method of measuring #1 valves. Make sure it's in WAY advanced if you anything on the bottom end.

Sure, it's not an ideal cam, but you give it some squeeze, better low rpm exhaust ( and tweak it over to +5 0r 6 advanced), you'll think you have a new motor.

Of course, if you find the cam timing off, and feel compelled to get it right, pulling the timing cover off, you might just as well a modern... oh never mind.......

Hey BTW, you always get the best performance out of the LOWEST octane fuel the motor can take. I.E., right now, I guarantee it'll HP/ET better on 87 than on 93. And you generally get real fresh gas with the low grade. I believe you'll still be able to run plenty of iginition timing. I'd run 40+ with 93 octane, easy. Save your $$$....

Go find some small chambered heads - cheap...call Summit and get some small tube headers -- cheap.. next year if you want some real power, you can slip a modern cam in there and really wake this thing up, if not......

save that $$ money for a rat, like the car had! Be a nice graduation present in a few years!

A cam swap should only take an afternoon if you are familiar with working on this engine, if not have someone who is help. Do an oil and filter change after the cam is broken in. Z-28 valvesprings or similar are available for about $30 and would also compliment the cam change, if you have the edelbrock matching springs for the rpm cam they would be good enough. When you remove your lifters keep them in order so they can be reinstalled on their corrosponding cam lobe. The resale on your rpm cam and lifters on ebay would probably put $75 back in your pocket to help offset your costs.

The best "Bang For Your Buck" is with vortecs.

If I were doing it right now this would be my plan:

Heads: GM Vortecs

Intake: RPM Vortec

Cam:
XE268 if I planned on having the vortec heads 'cleaned up" a bit.

XE 262 with the stock Vortecs

This combo will work great with your stock dished pistons. You can do it in stages as money allows. Your current RPM intake will bring a supriseingly high buck at a swap meet, TC classifides or on e-bay, so don't worry about the added expense of the new intake.

There have been many articles written on this combo, and some here at TC have used it with sucess. TC'er "blue chevelle" will be doing this over the winter to his stock 350crate motor in his 68.

can anyone give me an estimate of horsepower/torque increases over my current setup with:

1. just the news heads.

2. a cam swap

3. both.


And is it possible to have my current heads machined to work with this cam, or must i get a new set. (think about it, the engine cost 1300.00 new and now im going to spend 900.00 on heads, thats not very reasonable...)

We are interested in performance, the best for hte money, but overall i want to keep it under $1000.00 for everything, but thats difficult if i throw headers in there too :/

edit: im not changing my intake, there is nothing wrong with what i have now, and im not going to buy a new set of heads just to spend more money on them to get them to "work".

You could get the vortec heads/ intake and cam for about 1000 bucks, sell your current rpm intake for 75-100 easy.

With the vortec heads stock, and the 262 cam your hp will be about 350-375, with tq at about 400 maybe over.

Don't buy into the hype about the hp/tq numbers, you want it to feel powerful. this combo will do that.

Read about it here: http://www.73-87.com/chp/gm350.htm

This is a nine part article from Chevy High Performance Magazine.

They are doing exactly what you are looking for.

am i going to have to change the springs and timing chain (right now I have an edelbrock timing chain they recommend for hte performer rpm cam) and will the the springs and everything be just fine for the the new heads, will i need to get new rockers too?

I dont want to open a can of worms, if all i need to do is take my current setup and change the cam, intake, and heads, than ill do that, but if i have to get all the little parts too, than forget it.

This is the cam right:

Xtreme Energy XE262H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit
Lift: .462''/.469''
Duration: 262°/270°
RPM Range: 1300-5600
$169.99


Will my current carb (performer rpm 1406) bolt up no problems too?

i would have to agree with the Vortec heads and XE 262 cam. You wouldn't even have to change the valve springs.

I used these guys cam advice and now make 292 RWHP at 5900 and 421 TQ @ 2100rpm. I have Canfields heads ( alum $950 from Comp products) RPM intake 750VS carb and a nitrous 262 cam 218-230 @.050... I only have 3.07 gears and a 2600 stall and the car just runs great, i even have too big 1.75 headers. Point being i took out a 224-234 @.050 cam that got terrible mileage and was difficult to tune.

If your wondering what the current small cam runs ? 12.63 on motor and 11.38 on a 100 shot.


Also not sure where your at, but you might find someone willing to help you...if you need it.

So you guys recommend:

Vortec cast iron heads, complete: $259.99 each
Vortec Intake Manifold: $199.99
Comp Camps XE262H: $169.99

Which comes to $890.00 which is less than what i would pay for the heads i was going to get.

And if i do the above, i should be making 350-275hp and 400 (maybe more) ft/lbs.

And this you are saying is going to feel like night and day compared to what i have now?

And im not going to lose that badass cam sound i have now?

Would it be a good idea to move my high-rpm edelbrock valve springs from the performer rpm package over to the new heads?

i built my first [350] motor a couple years back, not knowing much about car motors. i'm a h.d. mechanic & i've built some 11 second street motors, so i applied the knowledge i have from the motorcycle hi-performance, to my chevy motor. you will find in riding a harley, or driving a street car, torque is king. torque is what moves you at low rpm's. big intake ports, big carbs, big exhaust, big cams are all rpm relative. hi rpm that is. with what you have, i would: 1. install a crane energiser 266h cam $120 [with lifters]. 2. when replacing headers, dyno max cerama-coat headers, $240. 3. 2.5" exhaust system. 4. 600-650 holley cfm vac. seconderies $240. a stock intake with an adaptor [holley to q-jet] will work fine, if you want, an edlbrock performer is good @ $115. your stock heads will support all these components @ about 155cc intake volumn. add these prices up & compare to a set of heads. ???????????? choice is yours

id do whats in my post which is a summary that just needs verification of waht everyone else said before what you said.

This past spring me and my dad installed the cam, intake, carb, valve springs, headers, after pulling hte engine and painting everything.

So now im being told i have to replace 3/4 of the stuff i had just bought, so i want to do it right but i want to keep it around that 800$ mark, i like hte dyno max headers but i dont want shorty headers.

With vortec heads, you'll need self-aligning rockers and centerbolt valve covers.

im guessing i would need these as per what that article says.

http://www.powerandperformancenews.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RP1416-16&Category_Code=&Store_Code=CC

there goes that "under 1000.00" :(

sure ill make up ground when i sell the intake, cam, and maybe ill save some if i can trade the old heads for a discount, but still, thats alot :(

edit: I just read on that site that they used hte performer RPM intake with the heads, thats great news cause that saves me 200 dollars canceling out the rockers :D

Email me about the valve covers if you got the Vortec way.

The vortec heads are nice no doubt and would add a considerable amount of power to his combo but I think the cam swap would make a very measurable amount of drivable power in itself. What are the casting numbers of the heads that are on there now?

The intake you have will NOT work with vortec heads. The bolt pattern and port shapes are different. The vortecs don't even use as many bolts...its a completely different animal. And while the price of the heads looks good up front, believe me, the cost of the conversion, while IMO well worth it, can easily eat up nearly all of $1000. They need guided rockers unless you spend the $'s to machine them for screw in studs and guideplates, and they need centerbolt valve covers, and they need a vortec specific intake. Since you already have an intake, and rockers and springs that will apparently handle the rpm cam, etc, this is not IMO a good candidate for a vortec swap...especially on a tight budget.
And I hate to sound like a broken record, but that cam is WAY too big for that engine. Those engines come with CAST dished pistons that make no compression and also tend to disintegrate when over revved. Your certainly not doing yourself any favors running high octane gas because it flat don't need it.
If you just MUST keep that cam in there, here's what I would recommend. Get a set of 56-60cc 305 heads, and get them machined for screw in studs, and re-use your existing rpm springs. This will get the compression up into the low 10's. Your existing intake, rockers, springs, etc will swap right over. A local machine shop may even buy your old heads from you...good non cracked 76cc 350 iron heads are getting harder to come up with all the time. The better 305 heads flow decently (compared to a 350 smog head like you have), and will dramatically improve your low end throttle response. Plus, the extra compression will make that cam sound that much better. You could probably buy the heads and get them machined for under $300. A little bowl blending goes a long ways with these heads too. Then, add a quality 10" convertor that stalls at least at 3000 rpms. The difference between this setup and what you have now will be night and day. Its not perfect by no means, but functional and cheap.

I didn't go the Vortech route myself for that very same reason. I was told you can go to a junk yard and get them off a 96 ( i think) truck and get the rocker arms, heads and valve covers for cheap ? That's up to how much time you want to spend on this.

I'll throw another suggestion out to you. If the heads you have are truley bad you could get S/R torquers for $379 ea. complete and then the $169 cam and reuse ALL the rest of your parts ( valve covers,rockers,intake,carb)

I have never used these heads so would some one else give an opinion to my suggestion. The heads have 170cc int. ports, 67cc chambers and 2.02-1.60 valves. I think these with the smaller cam and a thin head gasket will make the car respond very well.

As for the comp extreme cam, don't use the comp cam break in lube, i don't recall the name but there's a thicker paste that most engine shops use.

I know this is frustrating, one suggestion looks and sounds good, then there always seems to be a catch ( like with the Vortec's) don't rush the decision and you'll be happy in the end.

BTW, those cams are on a 110 LSA, so they'll still have some rumble to it at idle.

I hope i helped and didn't make things harder on you.

Mike

vortec heads/scoggin dickey (http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=2172&pid=108807)

910 for this kit or add 40.00 and get an air gap intake. Everything you need for the top of the motor except valve covers and they can be picked up cheap enuff at a junkyard.

If you decide to go the Vortec route, i have a brand new set of black center bolt valvecovers ( no bolts) that you can have for free, just pay the shipping.

Also i just bought an RPM performer and had to buy it new as i couldn't find one anywhere for sale used....meaning you could sell your easily for good money.

Mike

save about 700.00 more and put on one of dem der
weiand/holley 144 powerchargers made for that stocker/smogger cr...comes with everything you need,just an option.......
or stash the car,save it and buy a old beat up honda.graduate college make hords of $$$$$$$$$
buy bb 572 with juice plate tub it roll bar then go as freakin' fast as you want....just an option
shane

Originally posted by Rapid Robert:
vortec heads/scoggin dickey (http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=2172&pid=108807)

910 for this kit or add 40.00 and get an air gap intake. Everything you need for the top of the motor except valve covers and they can be picked up cheap enuff at a junkyard. This pakage listed above, plus the 262 or 268 cam and your done. Subtract the cost of your original RPM manifold and your under 1000 bucks.

Your rear tires will hate you. And all of your high school buddies will turn green with envy.

I have 76cc SR Torquers on my driver. They are a very good head about the same as a camel hump head. The 67cc chamber is still on the large size. The 305 heads might be a good choice. The chambers are small and that will help. They will, however, choke off the high rpm the RPM cam is designed for, quiting about the time the cam is just getting started. Again, even with the 305 heads, a cam change is desirable.

Pat, not trying to hijack thread but will some double hump heads help my combo? Or should I do double hump heads and a Comp XE268?I have recently come across the double hump heads.

Ok so now i do need to change my intake, and according to that site im going to have to change from a Performer RPM to a fricken Performer RPM, what the hell?


So now this is what i should get:

1. http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=2172&pid=89535
(heads, gaskets, and performer rpm air-gap)
--> Is it worth upgrading to hte airgap?
--> do i need the upgraded springs and retainers? or can i just get this one: http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=2172&pid=89531 save 200 dollars and resuse my edelbrock high-rpm springs? if i do, will i need new retainers though?

2. Comp cams xe262h

3. Comp cams roller rockers 1416-16 (ok how come these are not "self aligning" but they used them on that websites magazine, im guess i need to get these

4. a set of valve covers.


So basically:

Should i get the Air-gap intake? Will it benefit me since im not upgrading my carb?

Do i need hte upgraded springs and retainers, or can i save hte 200$ and just reuse my edelbrock high rpm springs on the new heads.

And are these the right rockers?
Comp cams 1.6 Ratio, 3/8'' Stud, Self Aligning $152.99

I would think that with the 262 cam you can use the $770 kit. That would all depend on the valve springs.

I don't think your edelbrock springs would go into the less expensive vortec head kit.

Call scoggin-dickey's tech support and give them your cam specs, they can tell you if the less expensive kit will work with the 262 cam. If it does that will save you 200 bucks.

Rocker arms are included in both kits, so all you would need to buy is:

1. the scoggin dicky kit 779 or $949
2. The cam
3. Valve covers

Install it, and tell your buddies you have a 450/450 small block, they'll never know.

well if its not 450/450 what is it going to be (i read on that site that 400/400 is very possible @ the flywheel with this combo, and the 262 is the better cam for street driving, and offers better torque than the 268 with stock heads, which im going to assume that it would also perform better with the non-ported/polished vortecs.

So can anyone tell me if i do need the better valve springs for the cam?

and if its worth the 40 bucks for the air-gap since im not upgrading my carb?

Originally posted by gared69:
Pat, not trying to hijack thread but will some double hump heads help my combo? Or should I do double hump heads and a Comp XE268?I have recently come across the double hump heads. Pat will know your approximate CR better than I, but I beleive thats too much cam right now. The 268 would be much better for you or even the 262 with your current heads(assuming they are stock w/76cc chambers). A head upgrade to a smaller chamber can take more advantage of the 268.

Now if you go vortec, the 268 would be a touch small with the flat top pistons, you might have to bump up to a 272 or you current 284 might be right there.

Pat would know this better, he's like a scientist with cylander pressures and compression ratios...way over my head.

Call Scoggin Dicky on the spring issue.

I really doubt you'll notice a difference with the RPM Air Gap over a standard Vortec RPM Manifold, but I know you like numbers and the air gap is worth a couple of ponies and foot pounds over the basic design.

Just remeber the only number that really matters is the one on your time slip, not your dyno sheet.

ill never be to the track or dyno with this car, but when i pull onto a street and have to go from 0-40 i wanna feel those numbers tongue.gif

right now i dont get to feel them much unless i floor it from 30mph+

Im glad to see that kit includes everything, once i find out about the springs ill be set.

is the XE262H the correct cam?

With the 262 XE cam you don't need the upgraded springs, the lift is .462-.469 with 1.5 rockers ( which is what i would use). The reason for selling your manifold and buying the same one is the different bolt pattern.

I don't think the air-gap is worth the money, also it's taller than a regular RPM, so you might have hood clearance with the air-gap.

If you can put this kit together with the vortec's and the 262 cam, you will be very happy. Excellent driveability and great power , especially down low, which is what moves the car.

Also Vortec's don't like alot of timing, most guys run them around 30-34 deg total timing.

And again, i'll give you never ran before black valve covers, you just pay the shipping from 46544.

Mike

i have an original SS with the cowl induction hood, the air-gap should fit no?

Originally posted by Chirp08:
is the XE262H the correct cam? Yes, Unless your gonna have some porting and blending done to the heads...if thats the case then go XE268.

If you leave the vortecs stock go with the 262, it will give you some more tourque.

Remember, your in high school...a senior.. the important numbers are the ones you'll get from the girls ridindg in you car.

well according to that site, the engine should be making darn close to 400/400 and thats something i want to hear, and if i can find someone to buy the cam and old intake, it'll be a relatively cheap upgrade :|

hey I have a "triangle of Death" and the cam to back it up!!! :D

hey I have a "triangle of Death" and the cam to back it up!!! I hear those work the best after a few years when all that cheap foam crumbles and goes into the engine.

Seriously, there are many good reasons not to use that air cleaner! smile.gif

http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/116_0403_mail/

erm how do you explain this?

They basically said the 262h is crap and the 268 wasn't much better, and they said that i wasn't going to even have that cool idle with the 262, what gives?

what goods is car making 400hp if it sounds like v6?

Originally posted by Chirp08:
what goods is car making 400hp if it sounds like v6? What good is a car that sounds nasty and gets beat by 6 cylinders? If sound is all you want keep what you have. I'll take 400 HP that idles well and isn't making my eyes water any day. ;)

why cant i have both lol, right now my car sounds like a dragster at idle, and at high rpms you would be drooling, sounds like there is alot more there than there actually is.

I just want to have it sound like there is a cam in it, i love that rough idle harley-like sound, especially when you know the car can back up the sound with the numbers.

but that still doesn't answer why they said hte 262 isn't worth it and hte 268 isn't much better.

It's a magazine, they tend to "twist" the story a bit. Aside from that, its probably and engine dyno comparison, doesn't tell you what it acts like once its in a chassis and going down the strip. If they did an honest dyno session, pay attention to the average torque produced across the RPM range you run at. (Add all the TQ numbers together then divide by the number of TQ figures you used). The peak HP/TQ might be misleading.

Well i'm just very nervous, i do not want to spend 1000 bucks on something that isn't going to give me hte power i was hoping for.

Is the vortec heads + 262h cam worth it or am i better off getting a set of the dart iron eagles and a different cam?

Whats the best i can do with the cam, i know this is a street car, but its only being driven to school really, otherwise its all about the power, so i dont really care if it needs 92 octane to run, or if my gas milleage is 10 to the gallon because i only am going to get to drive it for about 6 months after the changes are made, so i want those 6 months to be enjoyable.

I just want the best performance for the buck, and from what ive read the vortec heads are good, but i want to know if there is something that can give me better performance?

A set of 58cc chambered heads would be better, but the 64cc chambered 180 iron eagles would still be a improvement over what you have now. Compression would still be too low at maybe a hair over 9:1. 58cc would get you close to 10:1, which is about the bare minimum your cam needs to run like it should. Put those 180 iron eagles on there, and add a 3000-3500 rpm stall convertor, and you'll be shocked at how much better it runs.
Don't worry about the headers...thats not your big problem right now.
I am curious. Do you have an aftermarket convertor in there? Will the engine idle comfortably in gear? Will it blow the tires off the car like it sits now? I can attest to the performance of the xe268 cam and vortec head combo. It doesn't sound like a pro-stocker...it has an mild lope to it at idle, but it does pull hard from 2500-6000 rpms with the vortec heads. I run this setup with a 2000 stall convertor and 3.08 gears in a way heavy pickup, and it idles easily at 600 rpms in gear, and will blow the tires off like there is no tomorrow at anything under 20mph.

The magazine test was done with cast iron exhaust manifolds, the story explains that the GM cams offer a lot more exhaust duration than the Comp grinds and that would explain the power differences. Had the test been done with Headers I bet the XE268 would have come out on top or at least equal to the GM roller hot cam. The XE268 will have the idle you're looking for at 800-900 rpm.

IMO, the Dart IE 180cc would be a better choice. You get heads that flow on par or better than Vortecs, they're around the same price once you realise you don't need new rockers/intake/valve covers, etc. You can fit a cam with higher lifts if you can find one with relatively low duration and hi lift. Comps X4262H and X4270H come to mind, they're meant for 4x4 applications but have more lift and in the case of the X4270H it has more duration also. The X4262H is sweet because it remains low enough duration to match the 9:1CR but has .464/.470, a tad more lift than the XE, but, the XE might idle a little meaner.

All that said, the only drawback to the Darts is lower CR, BUT, the might pay off if you go to a 383 in the future, with their ability to use bigger cams.

The last few reccomendations are good....but, they won't keep you within your $1000 budget. You can make the hp/tq goals you wank without breking the bank with the vortec head combo.

The Car Craft article uses a GMPP HO 350, that is not the same as your Goodwrench 350. The article is not a good comparison for you to base your decisions on because your comparing two different baselines.

You need to use a comparison for the low compression 350 that you have, and the vortecs will take advantage of the lower compression, and allow you to save some money.

Yes you can up your compression to use a bigger cam, but at what cost? Other heads will run you over your stated budget, and new pistons will do the same.

With your budget in mind the realistic choice is clear, and use the CHP article as you baseline, because it is your baseline.

This article is more accurate to what you are trying to do: http://www.73-87.com/chp/gm350.htm

Now, if you up the budget we can talk about a world of other options you would love, but plan on spending another grand.

look at the CHP tech articles " cylinder head flow testing" the darts flow 210 @400, the Vortec's flow 227 @ 400. The are the best flowing head from .050 to 400.

You know what, buy the Vortech's and the 268 and later or next summer buy a 10" 3000-3200 stall and you'll never look back....except to see who's behind you.

Dude, all show and no go is a bad life choice. Better to walk softly and carry a big stick, than to tread loudly and get your arse kicked.

We'll wise ya up grasshopper.

Ok i just wanted to verify that the vortecs were hte best way to go, this is money i dont want to spend in the first place and since im not going to touch the block or internals im limited to the bolt ons.

i hope hte 268 sounds like the cam now, than again the cam doesn't sound that awesome at all once your rolling, maybe the 268 will have a more throaty/powerful sound smile.gif

with the 268 should i get hte head kit with the upgraded springs and retainers?

what would/could this combination possibly make at the track?

The xe268 won't sound like the rpm cam...but it will outrun it in your application.

Looks like the lift is 477-480 on the 268. I'm thinking you'll be right on the edge of the smaller valve springs.

BTW, there's nothing more amazing than a car that sounds stock, then drags the bumper off the line and runs and unbelieveable #...that's exxagerated, but you get the point.

i like when it sounds like a dragster at idle which apprently this cam should have something similar to the current just maybe not as much, but i think the new cam will sound throatier.

So i have to upgrade hte valve springs, $200.00 :(

$940.00 vortec heads + performer rpm air gap
$160.00 XE268H cam
$100.00 valve covers (estimate)

anything else i need, i dont want any "suprises" when i start bolting things on ;)

Will Z28 springs work? They're only about $35. Good to over .500" lift, I think. But I don't know if they fit Vortec heads.

You'll need self-aligning rockers or have the heads machined for guide plates and screw in studs. You can probably get rockers and valve covers at a wrecking yard for pretty cheap. Also, you can save some money by using the non-air gap manifold. AFAIK, there is no proven power advantage to the air gap.

ok, but that head kit is suppose to include the rockers gaskets and hardware.

the difference between hte air gap and performer RPM is just $40 on the kit so its not a big hit to upgrade to it.

my only question is hood clearance, how much taller is hte air-gap over the regular?

People consistently run mid 13s with a 262/268 and Vortec head combo. That is more than enough power to have fun with.

This combo is way way too time proven to argue for 6 pages about.

Whip out that wallet and buy some Vortec performance! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Here's the arguement, for that dough, bolt a dang Paxton/centrifrugal on it and have fun.
:cool:

kidding! How about a Weiand low profile. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

im not argueing i just want the best for hte buck and its look like 1200 bucks right now, so if i can save 200 dollars by not buying the upgraded springs/retainers id appreciate knowing that ;)

Its simple...

Browse through this post, and write down all the questions you have.

Call 1-800-456-0211 (Scoggin-Dickey).

Grab the paper with all the questions on it, then nail them! smile.gif

All your questions will be answered with pricing and everything.

I believe the rpm air gap and rpm are the same height

thanks, i think instead of getting new valve covers im going to get the GM adapter kit that will let me put the old style valve covers on, its about the same price as new valve covers. Plus the center bolt valve cover selection sucks..

argh i hate to do this but my dad (and i must agree) isn't happy spending another $1200.00 on this engine.

could i get more out of it if i got these:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?action=prod_detail&catid=2688&pid=123597

and a different cam, or must i go the vortec route?


Is there a crate engine out there that i could just sell this engine for and get, frankly the crate engine route would be a faster project for us than the cam head swap lol. But hte price has to be right, and frankly spening this much money on a 350 isn't something i want to do. I spent 900 last time, and this time im giong to be spending 1100 easy, so thats 2000 invested into a 1300$ engine :/

I didn't read all 6 pages..but speed cost money. The Dart Iron eagles are fine heads..and I think they are a better deal than the vortecs. The are thicker castings and have room for more performance in the future. I noticed you didn't have lifters listed in your price list.

You might want to find a used pair and save some dough. I bought a pair of 906 casting low mileage vortec heads from a salvage yard two weeks ago for $150 complete with rocker arms and nice looking titanium spark plugs still installed. A lot of these heads are hitting the larger yards now. In fact I told the yard I'd take as many as I can get from them for that price, they are selling for about $300 on ebay right now-(used).

the thing is that im going to college after next summer, and july-august ill be working and hte car will be sitting from that point for close to 4 years with the occasional drive. After college me and my dad will begin on a ground up restoration.

So that means between now and christmas we are looking for what we can do to make hte car as fun as possible for the little time we have with it as is.

We dont know where this crate motor came from, its a bit sketchy, my dad's only fear is that if put these parts on it the bottom end will go and than id be out 3500.00 and still need an engine.

Give us an update...what did you decide???

There are ohers watching that would like to know your results, both good and/or bad.

the thing is that im going to college after next summer, and july-august ill be working and hte car will be sitting from that point for close to 4 years with the occasional drive. After college me and my dad will begin on a ground up restoration.


Leave it alone and just enjoy what you have for now. After college you'll have more money and time. In the mean time follow proven combos on here and write down the ones you like. And read, read, as much ibfo as you can.