can cam timing cause an engine to need 20 degrees of initial ignition timing just to idle?
If so, would the cam likely be advanced or retarded?
cam is a UD 288/296 H10 unfortunately installed dot to dot. No dial indicators or degree wheels available. looking at buying them now, but before I do so, want to make sure that this could even be the problem anyway. Its about the last thing to check though.
Checked the damper/timing marks to make sure it wasn't 10 degrees off or so.

It sounds like it's a tooth off and it's retarded.

Thanks, I am going to take the cover off tonight and see if that is the case. Does anyone know how much advance is likely ground into the UD 288/296 H10 cam?
It was mentioned before that he used to get them with 2 degrees advance in them, that way you could use the +4 position on the timing set and likely be near 6 degrees advanced. And in later years he couldn't get cores that he could grind with 2 degrees advance in them, and had to use 4 degree cores.
If it is a tooth or so off, then I will move it but was wondering if I should use the +4 keyway or not. If it doesn't appear to be a tooth off, I'll have to wait until this weekend when my degree wheel will be here.

Don't overthink it. Without tools, set the cam so that the #1 intake is about .035-.050" closer to the head surface ( measured from retainer to head surface) , when the engine is on #6 TDC. That will tell you the cam's timing.

Get the plugs out and roll it over a few times. You'll see exactly what is going on. Intake is opening, exhaust is closing and they "meet" in the middle one revolution before TDC.

Check your balancer's TDC with a simple piston stop before you begin. If that's the problem, you'll be glad you found it. When Harold says his cam's like it advanced, it's truth.

By the same token, my car idles mildy rough with a vaccum advance and 26 degrees in at idle, so you might be OK. W/o vacuum, its real lumpy ( 16-18 degrees at idle) But, you might do the quick check to rest your mind about it.

Dennis,
First of all ... does the engine seem to run ok when you have the timing at that point ?? If so, there is probably nothing wrong with the cam.
1. Are you certain that your damper mark is correct ? This is a very common overlooked problem. Only way to tell for sure is with a tdc stop in the plug hole, unles you have the heads off.
2. If you hook up the vacuum advance will it run better ? If so, the engine just needs that much timing. Most performance engines can stand 25 or so degrees at idle (12 initial plus another 12-14 in the vacuum advance)
Before you spend a lot of time looking at the cam, check the basics.
By the way ... camshaft timing has absolutely nothing to do with ignition timing ... period.

I edited my reply above, I said without vaccum advance, doh graemlins/clonk.gif , meant of course 26 at idle with the vacuum adv on.

BTW, thought the same thing when I let the fresh motor finally idle down to 1000. It was all a bumpity. Guess what. Cam WAS in -6 instead of +6. Wierd. And good thing UDH told me such an easy way to check, else I wouldb't have messed with it and would've been running around with the cam phased wrong and only running 114-115 mph in the 1/4.

Woulda chased my tail 'round like a dog on that one becuase I figured it was good for near 120 mph in the 1/4, hp wise...again, check it quick just to know for sure. Good Luck!

Thanks for the info Bill and Gene,

I just read the posts today, and i just removed the damper and timing cover last night. I can tell you, I'm not a big fan of this timing set. It looks like it is a tooth off (retarded), but it looks like it will still look that way after I move it a tooth, just advanced. My degree wheel, dial indicator, tdc stop and such should be here thursday or friday so I decided to wait on the cam until I can see right where it is at now, then put it where I want it to be. the cam card said +6 (104 centerline). I'll put it at that if I have the PV clearance.
Engine runs okay with 20 initial with out vac advance plugged in. Starts really hard when hot with that much timing. Engine doesn't make much power though.
I didn't have a tdc stop, but did the shadetree screwdriver in the sparkplug hole deal. If the damper is off it is off in the other direction by a couple degrees. meaning, my 20 degrees of timing is really more like 23 or so. Hardly scientific, i know. A tdc stop is on the way with the degree wheel kit.
I'll never get that 12 degrees w/o vac advance because the engine will just not run at all at less than 15 or so degrees at any less than 2500rpm. Would you suggest timing it with vac advance already hooked up and setting that around 25 degrees or so? Then see how it runs? Would that help the hot start problem?

Noticed something interesting the other day about it. If I lose spark on nubmer 5 (wire wasn't in the cap good) number 8 (opposite) will not fire at all either. Seems really touchy about the opposite cylinders.

Bill, Being that cam timing will have nothing to do with ignition timing, I should expect that the engine will still want about the same amount advance after I move the cam to where it should be, right? So what I should do is run it at that initial, then just tune the mechanical to make sure its not going to the moon? What other things could be affecting the engines need for timing advance? Will running rich do that?

IF the cam is retarded, it will have an easier time idling when its phased correctly, i.e., advance 6 degrees or so.

So how do the #1 valves position when you have the timing gear 'dot-to-dot' ( #6TDC).? Kinda hard to measure BTW. Machnists scale was hard to get right, so I ended up using the heel of my old 6" Starret dial calipers and found it much easier to get a read.

The spark plug wire statement makes me wonder if you are firing all cylinders. If not - that would explain why it doesn't want to idle. If you are running headers, after you start it up, check each header pipe where it comes out of the heads. See if they are all getting hot. If not, you have some ignition problems. Another way is to get it where it will idle and pull one plug wire at a time off the cap (use some wire pliers so you don't get zapped) to see if the engine changes the way it is running. No change would indicate a dead cylinder. I may be off in the wrong direction but I've been there before.

Troy.

Sometimes it's the simple things - now that your timing cover is off! Check your timing using Harold's quick method. If you get anywhere from .035-.060" on the intake, button it back up.

Reminds me of the time I drove home from S.U., home to Webster NY to do a valve job on my 72SS350 Nova, since it was running so cruddy. Banged it out in around 8 hours, and the sob ran the same way. Only difference was, now it was dark out, AND WE COULD SEE THE WIRES ARCING ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!

Yeah $20 set of wires and it was fixed. At least my frat bro was amused, never seen anyone tear them off, redo them, and slap them back on so quick. ALL FOR NAUGHT!

If the cam has Lunati on the end of it, it probably has 4* advance ground in. If it has UD on it, then it is probably 0*. But might be 4* advanced.

What they do according to UDH is move the pin in the cam nose 2*. Since the crank moves twice as fast as the cam, you get 4* measured at the crank.
The 3 key timing sets are 0 and + - 4*. The billet sets have more keyways cut and are in 2* increments.

Once you get the hang of it, your going to want a bigger degree wheel. The Moroso 14" one is like $65 at Summit. But you can't always use them in the car.

The spark plug wire issue was because we had removed the distributor again for the millionth time while we removed the heads to check for bent valves. #5 was the closest to the firewall and wasn't plugged in good for the first start after that. It is firing on all 8 for all subsequent restarts cause the wire issue was really easy to find. I already checked header tubes after just having it run for 6 seconds so the headers wouldn't be all hot from dissipation. Plug wires, coil, points, and plugs are all new too. We had ignition problems earlier that turned out to be a combination of wiring and a pertronix that got burned up, probably due to the wiring. Keeping the points for the time being until everything else is right. Its running so crappy on all 8 that when it drops a cyl you really know it.

Yeah Gene, its really hard to measure since I don't have anything other than a tape measure and some feeler guages at the moment. lol I'll have a dial indicator soon and will be able to see. I have contemplated just moving the cam a tooth and seeing how it runs, but I decided to wait for the degree wheel kit and see where it is now (nice to know how far it was off) and put it right where I want it. I'll measure with both the qnd method and degreeing it. Might as well while the cover is off. btw, a cranking compression test showed 140psi which I thought was low for a 454 with right at 10:1 or so compression with this small a hyd cam. I hope it is way off, like 8+ retarded cause this thing really is a dog right now. Can't even hold a candle to my mild 455 in my 68 bird. more low end torque aside, the velle has 4.11 gears and my bird only has 3.55's. Cool, you went to SU. I'm only 20 minutes from there. Lets Go Orange!! graemlins/beers.gif Definately an SU or Chevy cheer.

Scott, The cam is a UD. The degree wheel that is on the way is the summit 11" one. I didn't think the moroso would fit the car because of the power steering box. I have seen the moroso one and it is quite nice. Plenty of space between the timing marks. We'll see how the 11" one looks.

to save me some time, this timing set didn't come with anything, so is square retarded or advanced?

square is retarded, triangle is advanced

thanks baddbob