Please recommend from personal experience a good cost effective rod and crank for a 454. Engine will be around 570-580 HP with a 150 shot on rare occasion. Is a 6.385 rod advisable over stock length since I have to get pistons anyhow? I'd consider stock parts, but since I am starting from scratch I might as well get new parts. Please advise on cast or forged crank.

Pistons will be nice Wiseco's.

I want parts that will check out right, balance right, and will drop in and had good casting/forging processes and materials. Was planning on ext. balance unless there is a cheap way to go internal with these parts.

I know this has been asked a lot but I was looking for an opinion from some that uses a lot of parts.

Anyone else's opinion is welcome as well.

Thanks..

My machinist likes Probe rods. They are pretty lite. Not too expensive.

I would suggest if you're building an engine, to buy an internally balanced forged rotating kit to handle that shot of nitrous! You don't mention details of your 454 whether its already bored, what cam, heads, converter, rear gears etc. Tell us about your combo! I have a similar built 468ci motor in my 73'Camaro that runs a 10.69 1/4m. Will be rebuilding rear suspension to a ladder bar system for 04! Goodluck with your combo! :cool:

Doug,
Shouldn't you be using Lunati ? smile.gif smile.gif I have had very good luck with Eagle's stuff on that level of an engine. The cranks need to be scrutinized, as far as size goes, and sometimes reground correctly, but otherwise they sem to be pretty decent. You almost can't beat Eagles deals on complete rotating assemblies. Anything much higher power and I go with Crower.

Bill,

What about the Callies Dragonslayer? $850 is what I paid for a Internal balance 4.25". Made from the Callies Magnum core, just minus the cosmetics and not as deep a heat treat according to Callies. My machinist was very impressed and it balanced with minimal effort (and expense to me) Journals were dead-on perfect.

As for rods, I use the Eagle H-beams +.250 with L-19 ARP bolts. Got those for $475 delivered.

As for rods, I use the Eagle H-beams +.250 with L-19 ARP bolts. Got those for $475 delivered Hey Tom,

Where did you get those rods for that price? Those are the ones with the real good rod bolts aren't they? Any price that I have ever seen on those rods are at least $150 more.

Darren,

Yes the 260K bolts.

shoot me an E-mail

mc71454@hotmail.com

The engine is in the planning stages (need $ :( ) but I have the heads which will be Holley aluminum oval ports. Intake will be a trick EFI setup. Cam will be a solid Lunatidyne somewhere in the 240-250@.050 range, whatever Harold recommends. With 3.73's and a 4000ish converter I'll shift at 6000 and should run high 10's at 3650 lbs if I can get reasonable traction.

Lunati has nice stuff, unfortunately too much for my pockets.

I was looking at Scat or Eagle products. Was looking to spend 300-400 each on rods and crank. If I have to regrind the crank there goes the savings, same with resizing rods. Same if balancing is a problem. I wouldn't trust a balance job from most places except a good machine shop.

I spray my stock bottom end 388 (KB pistons) quite a bit with no problems. I don't plan on using it with the BBC except for maybe a few high gear shots.

I've always had good luck with good machined stock SBC parts under 450 HP.

It's the typical deal, I want good parts for a good price. Just looking for someone that has constantly measured some Scat, Eagle, or other stuff and has seen it run for a while.

Any comments on stock 3/8" rods with good bolts, cast stock crank and good pistons below the 600 HP level (machined and balanced)?

How about opinions on the 6.385 rods in a 454?

Thanks for the replays and please add some more.

Originally posted by Doug F.:
Cam will be a solid Lunatidyne somewhere in the 240-250@.050 range, whatever Harold recommends. ( he does have an EXCELLENT 276 and 284 lobe profile!!!!!BIG POWER!)

I've always had good luck with good machined stock SBC parts under 450 HP.

Any comments on stock 3/8" rods with good bolts, cast stock crank and good pistons below the 600 HP level (machined and balanced)?

GM makes one helluva 6.135" 7/16" rod Doug. THe internals on my L88 were pretty fragged up, except the rods. Although we rebushed the small ends and rebuilt them, no cracks, and were almost good-to-go right out of the motor. Again, small end floating bushings showed some wear is all. These are 30 year old GM L88 rods, beam polished by me.

Thanks for the replays and please add some more. Didn't add much, but wanted to say, WELCOME, to the dark side!


I don't know if you recall Vizard's "Torque Terror" in PHR circa 1996? I was going to duplciate that motor. Uses a very mellow Crane SR236 ( I know, in a 510" , that cam is so docile my 439 makes more HP - at least as regards faster trap speed in a heavier car But it idles at 16"!!)).

Doug,

I am going to ask a question. Please don't take it the wrong way.

It is just my opinion but I always feel a strong foundation of a great motor is a stout bottom end. Because, Down the road if you want to up the ante and go for more power or maybe a higher RPM combination in a lighter car you are all set. I know EFI is great for street, but I don't know of many that achieve a significant improvement in track performance versus a good intake/carb setup.

I do not have experience with aftermarket EFI on a race car so I guess this is also a question. Why spend so much on an EFI system ($2000???)and cut corners on the bottom end for about $600 more than you will pay for OK and just adequate parts (considering NOS plans and 10 second passes) you could build a real strong bottom end and be able to throw anything at it now and in the future.

Maybe run a carb and dual plane for a year or two.

Not trying to tell you what to do, but would like to open it up for discussion.

Thanks Tom,
I'm an EFI (among other products) engineer at Holley so the EFI will not cost me much as I already have it on my 388. I've tuned dozens of 7 sec and up race cars so I have no issues with it. So the EFI is no issue.

The issue is that I have a family and money is scarce. My 388 is about worn out and I need a new engine.

I at least understand the importance of good parts and that is the advice I give others, however when it is your own deal it is a different story..lol

I understand pay me now or pay me later.

I understand the importance of good machine work and balancing, that is one area I won't scimp on.


The question gets down to is a set of Eagle or Scat rods and crank better than properly machined used stock parts for a 600 HP BBC, or do I need high $ parts. I guess not. I can't afford to have a bottom end good for 1200 HP even with the peace of mind.


Getting info from people like BillK and Mike is very helpful along with anyone with real experience like yourself.

I don't want to be stupid, just use my limited funds were best needed.

I will say I race just about every weekend and probably put on 175-200 passes a year and expect 500-700 passes before I open any engine up that is in my car. That # will be decreasing with family considerations.


Keep the conversation going.

I also understand getting a street/strip car into the 10's is not simple. I worked to get my 11.x's with the spary this year.

I'm kind of tired of .0001 bracket racing and want a quicker car to play with. I'm not concerned I won't likely be dead-hooking with the BB.

I'll work on it like you are with your car.

Doug,

Thanks for the explanation....Makes total sense to me.

A cast crank with light pistons and good rod bolts with 3/8 GM truck rods or Eagle SIR rods will very well in your setup. I have many co-racers that run combo's like that one is in the high 9's. And I know the engine builder very well too...so what they say is in there, really is "in there".

Good luck...

Doug, you mean to tell us that Holley doesn't have an employee discount? After all Lunati is owned by Holley isn't it?

Jeff

Yea, I get a discount but Lunati doesn't have any overseas parts for BB's. A crank is over 1k still and rods are still expensive. Kind of sad!

Doug,
I have checked several Eagle balanced assemblies and they were dead on by my balancer smile.gif I make sure and tell Eagle to check the cranks and they have been very good lately. I have never had a problem with the rods. Thier complete assemblies usually have SRP pistons in them and I have not been able to get close to the prices trying to buy them seperately.

I bought an internally balanced rotating BBC kit,Scat crank, Eagle 4340 6.385 rods,with a new ATI Super D. Had my machine recheck balance and said everything was close-very little work needed! I would use the 4340 quality rods with ARP-L19option if your going to spray, pushing hp to over 700 and that many runs down the track! If your going to build the engine build it strong! :cool:

What's the deal with some of the 4340 Eagle BBC cranks on Ebay that are new but are .010/.010.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33616&item=2452549702
Were they factory flawed that had to be cut? They were around $300-400 for an internal balance crank. Will these need mallory? Are there internal balance BBC rotating assy's that don't need mallory?

Don't mean to keep asking but I really want to research this a bit.

I checked on Eagle's website and the only rotating assemblies are for SBC's. Can anyone recommend a good place for BBC rotating assy's?

ttt for Mike (wolfplace)

Mike,
Would you recommend Scat or Eagle crank and rods for a BBC? 454, 570-580 HP, Maybe rare 150 shot, 6000-6200 shift? Don't want to have to remachine anything after I measure everything. Will internal balance stuff require mallory if a certain bobweight is used?

Thanks,

I bought a complete 496" rotating assembly from Flatlander. Pretty good pricing:
Lightned knife edged Scat 4340 crank,
Oliver Pro rods 6.385"
H- series bearings rods/mains
SRP pistons
Speed Pro plasma-moly rings
All for $1839.
I think a kit like this puts quality/money where it`s most needed.

Over all IMO, Scat products seem to have a better reputation than the Eagle line.

www.flatlanderracing.com (http://www.flatlanderracing.com)

Doug, have a couple guys that bought from here with good luck.

http://www.thehotrodstore.com/eaglerotatingkits.htm

Originally posted by Doug F.:
ttt for Mike (wolfplace)

Mike,
Would you recommend Scat or Eagle crank and rods for a BBC? 454, 570-580 HP, Maybe rare 150 shot, 6000-6200 shift? Don't want to have to remachine anything after I measure everything. Will internal balance stuff require mallory if a certain bobweight is used?

Thanks, =
Doug,
Sorry about the delay, I was at the Superflow Advanced Engine Technology Conference rubbing up against all them smart folk hoping some would rub off (didn't work :D )

I do not use Eagle cranks. There rods I have seen have been very good.
I have been using Scat stuff for over 12 years & never had to send one back & have had no problems that were the fault of their parts.
There is no reason to use the L19 bolt for what you are doing. The bolt has very little to do with the HP level. It has a bunch to do with the weight of the pistons & the RPM level you are planning.
Bolts & rods do not break because of HP, they break on overlap when you exceed the strength ot the parts in stretch.
I also do not buy balanced rotating assemblies from anyone. I do them myself.
Nothing against the way other people do things I have just seen enough "balanced rotating assemblies" from mail order places that I prefer to not "save" myself the added work of balancing. Plus in reading your posts I do not think you are just going to buy an assembly & "bolt it together".
That said you are going to have the balance checked anyway & it is damn near the same work to check it as it is to balance it.
As for pricing, if you email me I can give you the prices on the scat stuff. I would use the 6.385 rod in a 4.250 engine mostly because you can get enough counterweight on the crank to internally balance it.
The cast crank does not have enough counterweight to balance internally as it is cut for 6.135 rods.
Not a real big deal unless you are set on internal balance. (which I do feel is better)
Sorry if I missed any questions, I sorta skimmed the posts. ;)
Bottom line, I use Scat mainly because they are a crank company not just an importer.
They do everything from the 9000 series cast to full billet stuff at about $2800.
They do not grind the cast crank in house but every one is checked for size & their reject rate is VERY high.
Guess where these rejects end up :D
The 4340's are finish ground in house & they just started a new porgram so you can order up special strokes etc.

BTW, their are a few of the better known kits out there that are using Scat's cranks in them ;)
Their is not a big difference in price & I have had too many issues with sizing on Eagle cranks that were brought in that customers had gotten a deal on. Not the rods, I have never had an issue with an eagle rod I just have no reason to use them.
I have heard that Eagle has gotten better but i don't personally know this. I have no reason to doube it it's just I like to see it first hand plus I have no reason to change!
I would use the H beam as a 6.385 is lighter than a stock 3/8 bolt rod in a rat by about 40 grams
Someone asked about the 10/10 stuff on ebay. Most are the the regrounds that were not ground right in the first place.
If I missed anything ask away & send me an email when you get a minute.
I may be harrasing you about FI one day soon as what I know about FI you could fit in a thimble :(

To anyone that asked me questions in the past few days that I missed, I apologize, I wasn't ignoring you, I have been out of town at the Superflow Advanced Engine Technology Conference & just got back.
Please ask again or email me & I will try to answer as soon as my brain starts attempting to work again ;)

I am running the scat 4340 forged steel crank 4.00stroke and the 6.135" scat 4340 h-beam rods. I am completely happy with them. I bought my crank for $600.00 brand new. The main journals were turned .001" more from the factory and with no balancing. I then took down the rods, crank, balancer, pistons, and flexplate and had my machinist balance it. He said that the crank is great and in fact the balancing holes took also 4 hours just to drill because of how hard the crank was.

Thanks Mike and everyone else.

Mike,
If you ever want to try some EFI give me a call and I'll set you up. Once you get used to it I think you'd REALLY like it. Having a system that has a datalogger and a wide band oxygen sensor for a really affordable price for a drag car is really nice. Carbs are just too complicated! :D

I think I'm looking at building a 496 since I'm going to probably go with a new rotating assy.

Some people say that would be a bad choice and others not so. If I was interested in making a dead consistent car I'd stay 454, but I just want a fun toy and be able to bracket race when I want. Have to stick my aluminum oval ports on the flow bench and see what they do and do a little work on them. I think they will still work with a 4000-6000 RPM 496.

Originally posted by chevy_69_chevelle:
He said that the crank is great and in fact the balancing holes took also 4 hours just to drill because of how hard the crank was. Don't understand that at all?? The hardness is on the pins not the counter weights. Did you really say, 4 hours (drill balance holes) to balance and the comment was it was great????
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Paul,
Actually they harden the whole crank & it is sometimes a bitch to get through the first .060 or so. That said, it shouldn't take 4 hours to drill 4 holes unless of course you are getting paid by the hour :D

Thanks Doug,
I am doing an all aluminium 427 small block for a customer & he is considering the FAST system.
I need to set my dyno up for FI in the near future & do have a few questions about it as far as the Hi pressure side goes.
My thoughts as of now are to use a surge tank like the Ron's one with the Holley bowl on the side & just use the dyno system for make up fuel.
Running the hi pressure & return to the surge tank as a seperate system.

Mike,
That should work. Our Superflow dyno is set up like that and our DTS as well. Just a few comments that you already know! Make sure you run a 60-100 micron filter before the EFI pump, not doing so will kill the pump. Run a 10 micron high pressure after the pump. Aeromotive makes some nice filters that should work well along with pumps as well. Make sure you return the fuel through your "b" flowrater before the surge tank so you get accurate fuel flow numbers and consequently BSFC numbers. Run big wire (like 10g) to the pump for power and ground and you should be all set. Running TOO big of a pump is ok up to a point. If it is way too big and you use a small (return orficed) regulator the pressure/flow curve will be bad, that is you will have high pressure at idle because the reg. can't bypass enough fuel and then it will drop as engine fuel demand increases.

It's all pretty simple once you do it once or twice. Let me know if you need any help. I can help with most systems.