Our government is mandating that all gas has 5%ethanol in the next 5 years and then 10% ethanol at some later date. I am running a 10.25 SCR and 8.21 DCR Big Block. What will this do as far as power, detonation and temperature?? I am currently getting 93-94 Octane pump gas here.

You will lose about 3 to 4 percent power and mileage!

This is documented and is b/c ethanol doesn't have the energy in it since it contains an oxygen atom and so doesn't weigh as much as the alkane carbon chain it is like if it wasn't an alcohol..

We are selling it in the midwest where we make the stuff as well as E85 fuel which is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent unleaded, (with a schosh of lube in it if not mistaken)???

pdq67

We have 10% year round here, have for years. As to what to expect..... well slightly worse gas mileage for one, but then that doesn't really matter to us, right? :D You may need to slightly tune for it but street motors don't seem to have any real problems with it, but we are nearly at sea level. OBTW our "good" stuff is 91 Octane.

Im running 11.1:1 compression 350 on 89 octane Ethanol in my nova. Made an 11.88 pass on it too. Probably could have gone alot faster that day but the rear end went "klunk" on my next pass. I dont think it can be that bad of a performance inhibitor but who knows. Just a thought. And as far as the oxygen atom goes....isnt that the big benifit of nitrous? It allows for more oxygen to enter the chamber? So why would that be bad? Just curious

At levels of over 10% i think you start having cold weather drivability problems. Alcohol doesn't like cold weather and produces less BTUs than comparable gasoline mixtures. I could be wrong but i thought that the E85 was 85% gas and 15% alcohol, not the other way around. Straight alcohol requires a mixture ratio of about 6.5-1 for an ideal mixture while gasoline produces the best power at a ratio of 12.8-1. Alcohol motors heat up much more slowly in hot weather also but this is a plus. I also hear that Methanol is very corrosive while Ethanol is not. Any chemistry majors feel free to correct any incorrect statements here as my knowledge is limited on this subject. You will definately lose power and mileage with the mix and you'll probably never have a drivability problem in Yuma, Arizona with this stuff 'cause Yuma is hot, hot, hot.

Sorry will have to add some Boster!

I know this is not good i have a 427 10.5 cr
and Chevron Suprem is all that it will run

But Good news ! The boys at Lucas Oil are Going
to help us out they have a New Octane boster
available in Canada just last month

and the price is right..

E85 is 85% ethanol.

http://www.e85fuel.com/faqs/e85.htm

I figure E85 is good to 12.5 to 1 CR, maybe 13....

The problem is that there aren't very many E85 stations therefore if you built a dedicated high compression motor to run it all the time, you may have a hard time feeding it once out of the midwest???

pdq67

ethanol has an octane rateing of around 105 if I remeber correctly. so if you build your motor to take advantage of it you can make more power. why do you think race engines run on alcohol because it can be made to produce more power than gas.

It takes twice as much alcohol,,,more fuel more power,,,or spray nitrous with gas and make more power. Hmmmmmmm,,,can you use nitrous and alcohol?

If you start using something that has a 85% alcohol content you had better rework your fuel system for the increase in fuel volume that will be needed or you'll burn your engine up in a hurry. Yes alcohol will make more power but will still take twice as much fuel to do it. You had better talk to someone who is REAL knowledgable about this stuff before you start pooring it in your tank or your engine may have the lifespan of "an ant at a picnic". I do know this much, alcohol has an ideal mixture ratio of 6.5-1 air to fuel while gas is ideal at 12.8-1.

In sweden they have 5% Ethanol. Havnet recognized any differ.

But we ran so fast anyway... ;)

6.5-1 is the ratio for methanol. i believe the ratio for ethanol which is what is in your gas is about 9.5-1 so you dont really need as much fuel.

Even if it is 9.5 thats a long ways from 12.8-14.8 that gas is metered at so its going to be WAY lean. It does have a lot of octane so shouldn't detonate but your engine will still be too lean without major fuel system changes. I don't think it could be this much different between one type of alcohol and another. That sounds like more gas industry B/S, however the 15% gasoline added to the mix could make it somewhat closer. You might also want to read the FAQ portion of the link in the above post concerning the legal implications of using E85!

Don't some of the new mopar vans have a little sticker that says they'll run on E85? I bet the computer senses the Ethanol and re-programs to run the new fuel mixture.

Hi Harold,
According to the WBO2 meter guys like Innovate & ECM I believe Lambda for gas is 14.7, Methanol is 6.4 & Ethanol is 9.0?? & LPG is like 15.5

I think E85 is about 10.0

With Efi its easy. With carb try go up 8 sizes and make sure you have 25% more fuel capacity.

You will run cooler, could have higher compression, Make more power if you run higher comp ratios.

You should buy an LM1 meter unit from Innovate. Then fine tune for more power.

E85 is also cheaper. Could be hard to start in cold areas though.

Hi Wolfy, I knew that you would have some info on alcohol. According to the Frequently Asked Questions part of the link in a previous post up here it appears there are some roadblocks to using it in everyday commuting, besides the, will it work one. LPG is probably the easiest conversion out there and from what i hear is very environmentally friendly. All of these alternatives come with a heavy dollar expendatures in order to convert to them though, which is why none have become popular. I think all this alternative fuel might get eclipsed by the hydrogen car reaserch going on right now by G.M., Daimler-Chrysler and other major manufacturers.

Originally posted by godsend:
I think E85 is about 10.0

With Efi its easy. With carb try go up 8 sizes and make sure you have 25% more fuel capacity.

You will run cooler, could have higher compression, Make more power if you run higher comp ratios.

You should buy the LM1 meter unit from Innovate. Then fine tune for more power.

E85 is also cheaper. Could be hard to start in cold areas though. Actually,,,, if you buy the Innovate LM1 from me,,, :D

Then I get to make a buck or two & I can probably save you a few ;)


Harold,,
I did find years ago after some very scientific experimentation that too much alcohol makes you feel like crap the next day graemlins/sad.gif
One of the other things I learned during this period of very technical work was,,, it is normally an excellent idea to put you feet down when you come to a stop on the way home from the place where this testing is done :(
Harley's tend to get VERY heavy at about 2AM,,,,,

Wolfy, was that Methanol or Ethanol? Most of our locals here find accomodations at the local cross bar hotel at around $2000.00 per night after the testing described.

i put half a tank of E85 in my 84 Regal T-Type, and the little turbocharged V6 felt like it gained 50 horsepower- but the fuel economy went straight to the toilet. i don't know if it was because of the extra fuel that was needed due to the alcohol content, or from my heavier right foot putting that extra power to the road. but i do know the engine liked the stuff, and it smelled like a race car when it was running.
i haven't tried it on my carbed Nova yet, but maybe i will try the stuff just once before she gets put away at the end of the month.

Originally posted by novaderrik:

i haven't tried it on my carbed Nova yet, but maybe i will try the stuff just once before she gets put away at the end of the month. I don,t think you should leave E85 in the tank over the winter,alcohol is very corrosive when left sitting.

alcohol is corrosive?

How's that? Not based on a pH scale.

He, He!!

If people think a Hydrogen moblie fuel source economy is around the corner, I have some Florida swamp land to sell them!!

Imho, the auto/energy industrial complex ISN'T going to do anything different except feed at the Public Trough until they have to come screaming to a different propulsion system when the public can't afford to drive and they start to go broke if they don't do something different!!!

And my bet is electric using some form of capacitance energy storage that we don't even know how to do yet and then fusion power to feed all that!!

But you talk about Star Trek stuff until it's figured out!!!!!!

I figure if we scra-, er, no, scale back the industrial/military complex that is making the "cronies" rich now, at the expense of the taxpayers and transfer our meager resources to this project, everybody will be ahead of the game..

Then let the para-military types hunt down the 9/11 stuff..

I know, I know, off the subject but what the heck..........

pdq67

Originally posted by MarkM:
alcohol is corrosive?

How's that? Not based on a pH scale. It may not be going in but it is coming back up after a bachelor party last Saturday. :(

We use 10% mix on 87 and 89 octane here and I have had no bad experiences with my daily drivers. I think the 92 octane premium is ethonal free.

The governor is pushing for 20% but I don't know if it will pass.

I don't think your going to see too much drivability problems at the 5-10% mixtures but higher percentages will give you fits in the cold climates.

Most gas here in IL is 10% ethanol with a few select stations still selling 100% gasoline. I really don't notice any difference even in the old Pontiac.

If you do any longer trips you'll definately notice a decrease in mileage.

And not to mention the local politicians that are in on making money off this...

Some of our newspapers around the state got into this a while back...

pdq67

I think the stations in MN cut back the ethanol level in the winter. This last tank I got seems to be pretty weak compared to what I've been buying all summer. Started pinging on this last tank... time to retard the timing graemlins/sad.gif

I'm thinking about running a mixture of E85 in my SS with a 11.5:1 427. It'll be cheaper and easier to get than the 110. Maybe throw an extra carb in the trunk jetted for premium to swap on and retard the timing for any trips away from home.

Yeh pdq67, Politicians smell money like sharks smell blood, only the sharks better hope the're not between the politicians and the money.

BY POWER IS WHAT IS GOING ON NOW!

DUAL POWER IS THE FUTURE. HONDA IS GOING TO LEAD THE WAY IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF GENERATOR OPPERATING ON A LOW QUALITY GAS/ALKI

THERE IS NO STOPING IT NOW I JUST HOPE WE WILL BE ABLE TO FEED ARE MONSTER. I SHURE DON'T WHANT TO SEE MY BBC ON PROPANE.

LET'S PRAY THAT GOD WILL LET US KEEP ARE TOYS
NOWING THAT GOD IS A BBC FAN IS COMFORTING..

Gotcha accontrol!!

pdq67

E85 is Cheaper than Petrol. It will use 30-40% more fuel but will add 20% more power. that will yield upp in a lighter foot. And cheaper ride.

And 20% more power is alot of fun ;)

You take away the tax breaks and the gov. subsidies AND it is higher priced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pdq67

Originally posted by pdq67:
He, He!!


I know, I know, off the subject but what the heck..........

pdq67 Actually, no, Pdq, you are pretty much on target.

Thousands of years ago, I was in trade school, and "gasohol" was a new thing around here. At that time it was 5% methanol. I can't tell you the number of people who hated that stuff because they had to replace clogged fuel filters, or get the carb rebuilt.

I figured that if all that crap was in the gas tank, better to put in a filter or two, and have the crap GONE. Looking back on it, I bet the water and crap was in the giant underground tanks at the gas station, and the alcohol mixed with it whereas the "normal" gasoline just floated on top.

The methanol was corrosive. I don't know the chemistry of it, perhaps it's because it mixes with water, and the water actually caused the corrosion. Beats me, but it was. Rubber fuel line didn't like it much, either. The last time I bothered to check an owner's manual, GM was saying 10% ethanol was OK, or 5% methanol IF there was a "cosolvent" included. I have no idea what the hell a "cosolvent" is.

Now the "gasohol" is 10% ethanol. (around here, that'd be pronounced "Et-nol") There's no complaints of corrosion, crap in the fuel filters, etc. Usually costs the same as so-called "pure" gasoline, but has an octane rating one or two points higher.

I use it in preference to "pure" gasoline. Never any condensation build up in the tank.

I don't care much for the ethanol industry, the government subsidies, and the waste of energy caused by the manufacture of ethanol. I don't have a problem with actually using the stuff, though.

Bill from Canada, it's 66 283 from Canada. Are you running Mohawk 94 ethanol blended gas? I'm not sure what % ethanol is has. ??

That's what I run and my engine seems to like it. I made WELL over 1000 rwhp on the stuff with no problems. My car seems to run the same temperature-wise on the mohawk 94 vs VP-C16, so if you tune for it you will have no problems.

I can't remember what the specific gravity of the stuff is but I know that when I switch from race gas to the mohawk I need to fatten the idle a bit.

I cannot however comment on your "DCR" though. :D

MAT from Ontario - fuels are mandated to max 10% ethanol - our Sunoco 94 is max 10% as is it's relabelled Pioneer 93 equivalent,

A co-solvent is just another fuels grade solvent that is used along with the other stuff to probably bring it's oxygenation properties up to 10 percent fuel/mix blend is all.

You wouldn't believe all the stuff they use in gasoline to make Gov. approved fuel mixes nowadays b/c of the different and varied refinery oil feedstocks.

And the only thing wrong with MTBE is that it doesn't taste like Bourbon and Branch is all b/c I have yet to find a web site that say's it is any worse to drink then GRAIN ALCOHOL.. But it tastes like, I think, turpentine???

Gasohol's main use was/is in CO nonattainment areas b/c it made gasoline burn better and thus create less CO.

Nowaday's it's proven that the stuff up's the evaporative effect, (Reid Vapor Pressure, (RVP) nunmber), of a regular unleaded fuel mixture which create's more OZONE problems unless it is also mandated that Stage II fuel pump vapor recovery is used. That and OBD II on-board vehicle vapor recovery too.

You can't pump Gasohol long distances b/c it separates out. That is why Cali. wants outta the gasohol program b/c it will raise their already rediculously high fuel perices even HIGHER!!

I bet if you imported tankers of 100 percent Ethanol from Brazil or made the stuff from either coal or oil, the Corn Growers Association would raise holy-h-ll AND call it "BAD" ethanol b/c they wouldn't get any subsidies out of the deal!! So go figure....

I know, I know...

pdq67

66 283 ..... Yes I and alot here use the Mohawk 94 .... I also use it in my mod'd Supercharged GTP (13lb boost) and watching the scan tool I get less KR and more total timing once the computer " learns" its in the tank after going from real gas , 100 octane unleaded race gas produces no better results , so no problem in my BB 10.4scr/ 8.1 dcr...have not used my Innovate WBo2 yet though so more tuneing in order for BB Mohawk E94 Works for me smile.gif

Some posts here are getting Ethanol and Methanol mixed up modern blended "E" is great in cold weather , natural gasline antifreeze ...

Some " E" info
http://www.huskyenergy.ca/products/downloads/Lloyd_Ethanol.pdf