Hello guys, I'm new to this forum, but have been on the Camaros.net and Corvette forum for some time, but wanted another opinion.

I have a 64 Vette that has an original 327-365 motor, (which would have had the 30-30 Duntov Cam in it)

Everything is original except someone did a cam swap when they redid the valve seats in the heads some time ago.

I'm trying to find the best cam for this car to keep the original character of the car but also have some serious whoop ass.

I've been considering the original 30-30 perhaps the offroad 140 (which is probably to big for street driving) Crane makes a cool solid lifter cam (pt #114681) with 244-252 at 50 and 518-536 lift on a 112. I've also been considering comp cams 294s as well Harolds 30-30 replacement cam. There are also a couple cool Lunati Grinds that might do the trick, but here is the catch.


I do not want to pull off my heads and cut them for bigger springs or screwin studs. And I'm running the original rams horn exhaust manifolds (with a 2.5 inch opening and full 2.5 exaust)

So whichever cam I choose has to work ok with manifolds as well a spring that will fit in the stock pocket.

What are your thougts?

BY the way, the motor again is an 11.5 to 1 327 with fuelly heads.(461)

Thanks for your time.

My long gone Crippled Buddy ran an Isky Z-30 in his 375hp/327 F.I. motor he had in his '58 'Vette Convert.

He had the car set up with hand controls and a four speed!! Always needed a "shotgunner" to shift for him!!

An Orscheln Brake Lever with a Hog throttle on it to operate the clutch and throttle. Then had a hand brake between his almost skinny legs!!

He used a short broom handle to dim the headlights too....

Us kids used ta lift him down on a ceaper and push him under it and when he said so, just grab his feet and pull him out and thenlift him up and set him on his fenders when he was working on his car!!

He ended up putting an early 354 MOPAR Hemi in his "Vette and putting the F.I. motor in a '34 Ford Coupe with the help of his son and various other kids around town!!!

BTW, that Z-30 cam sounded AWESOME!!!

I wouldn't recommend it but you have the needed compression to run it good!!

pdq67

What kind of street usable power did the Z30 have compared to the 30-30?

Thanks

Aaron

That Z30 looks like the 30-30 with less lobe separation, a few less degrees at .050 and about.005 less lift.

THe tighter lobe sep might make it a bit more responsive and quicker.

Any other thougts?

Thanks

Aaron

Staying with pressed in studs limits how aggresive the cam can be. You might be able to pin them in the car, though. That would help. I'd stay with a lower lift cam and longer duration much like the original cam. You might take a look lift rule cams for stock eliminator engines. These have loads of duration but stock lift. With 11.5, if that is really what the engine has (mfgs were pretty "optimistic" on specs in those days), you'll want a cam in the mid 290º to run pump gas. I'd look for a dur/LSA combo that yields overlap in the 50-75º range. This will make a rather radical sounding engine. A 292/292 on a 110 LSA installed at 106º would do the job.

Well, I might have just found a matching set of heads that can be done whatever I want to them. And still keep my originals untouched.


That being said, i'm still not sure that is exactly what I want to do however, with regard to overlap.

how can you calculate the amount of overlap a cam has?

And with using the original manifolds, is there something I should look for that will take into account the restrictive nature of exhaust manifolds?

Thanks

Aaron

Add the intake opening point to the exhaust closing point, I think that should give you the overlap number??

pdq67

What PDQ said but you have to use .004" or .006" advertised duration values. .050" number will not give you the correct overlap. Linked in my is is a page on calculating overlap.

Aaron, glad to see you posting this over here. I'm sure you'll get some solid advice to help with your decision.

Hopefully Harold will chime in with a cam recommendation. I'd also like to see him refute some of what was said at the other forum. That said, I'm certain there is a modern cam that will produce more average torque/power through you're exhaust than a LT-1 cam.

Regarding the heads, if you got a spare set, I'd have them worked for whatever future engine mods you may make... screw in studs/guide plates, oversize valves, full port job, hardened seats (but only if you need seats), etc.

For my '59 #550 heads, I had them cut for screw in studs and guide plates, in case I were to run a roller cam later. I had them cut for 1.90 and 1.60 valves, and they will be fully ported and the ports are being re-shaped. I'm trying to maintain the stock look. The '59 283 block now displaces 377 CI.

Regarding your exhaust manifolds, have you considered those offered at www.castheads.com (http://www.castheads.com) I'm tempted to forego headers and run their 2 1/2" CNC ramshorns. They can also port your intake so that it won't be visible from the outside... either extrude hone or acid porting (might be a viable option if you have a spare intake and some extra $$$ to spend.) I look forward to hearing what cam you choose and the results.

By the same token, I know for a fact that the 2nd Gen Z cam will handle 11.5:1. Most modern cams make more power in large part due to more cylinder pressure. 11.5 isn't going to want much more of that.

Yeah, my goal is to get the most usable power out of a stock looking set up.

I also want to keep the character of the 327-365 and anything that ran the 30-30 for that matter.

I don't mind the sluggish bottom end if it comes on like a mother in the upper rpm like a 327-365 or DZ302 ran.

I love that about those engines.

I too was thinking of a stroker crank, but that will come in the next engine.

I got a recommendation from a few people including Comp, Lunati, Crane, and Isky, but they all say different things about manifolds and what a cam needs to do regarding them.

Steve from Lunati (who worked with Harold at Ultradyne) simply said that there is truth to both sides of the story, but not to worry much about it because it really doesn't make that much a difference.


He suggested the 292 Ultradyne Solid Cam. Which I think is Harolds 30-30 replacement but he suggested doing the intake lobe on 282 which will give more and better bottom end. And grinding it on a 110.

What ever I put in the car, it has to have as lopey or more an idle as the 30-30 cam did because I'm gonna have the car judged and I don't want the idle to sound less than the 30-30 cam.

NOW, having said all that, I'm defiantely keeping the exaust manifolds and running 11.5 to 1 compression, so I too am worried about cylandar pressure. I can get 94 unleaded at the corner gas station every day of the year and during the summer months they have 110, but I'd like to be able to get away with 94 most of the time and just add the 110 when I'm gonna really jump on it.

Isky suggested a modern cam with 242-254 with .507-.525 lift on a 110 but they said that idle would be tamer than the 30-30. He said I could put it on a 106, but then i'd most likely have detonation problems on pump gas.

Comp suggested an Xtreme Energy Solid cam with like 242-250 at 50 and about .525- .550 on a 110 (those might not be the exact numbers as I don't have my notes handy.

Any other suggestions?

By the way, this is a restored street car. It will never see the track and only driven on beautiful afternoons and weekends.

I just ordered a cam from Steve at Lunati on monday and this is what he sold me for my 69 z28 302. part
#401a3
238 248@50
485 503
lobe sep 112
hope this helps Richard graemlins/thumbsup.gif

If you really have an original 64 vette, with the 365/327, are you sure you want to do that to it? You might be talking ALOT of money on the table there, id at least pull the original drivetrain and build somthing else in its place. Im not an originality freak by any means, but when it comes to the really high dollar stuff, you might want to think twice.

Just curious, did Comp recommend their N30-30S? Or Magnum muscle cam?

Not busting on Comp, but the n30/30s would be fine. You DON'T NEED the cylinder filling of the XE line. Knock the CR down to 10.5:1 , and you can really find cam that sounds like the LT1, but pulls much harder, and almost as high.

I would chime in here but really have a problem b/c the motors I know for sure that ran the 30-30 weren't stock applications.

one was in a car of a friend on the RR back in '66 that was in of all things, a '57, 2-d/post, 250hp/327, four speed car with posi-, 4.11's!! It was wild stop light to stop light!!

A second was in my friends '56 2-d/post, he swore it was a power-pack, 265!! But it was the only car my Mom's '65 Chevelle 4-d, 195hp/283 two barrel three speed on the column with slicks on it that it could never beat out of the hole!!

As I said earlier, my Crippled Buddy ran the Z-30 Isky!!

Another friend/classmate had a stock, '69, Z but it had stock mufflers on it so I never paid any attention to it's sound!!

He did say that marching across the bottom blacktop north of his hometown way back then at about 140 or so mph and about 7,000rpm, she sounded great!! AND he did drive that way b/c later he had to get rid of the car OR ELSE!!!!!!! Something about jail time???

He, He!! When I saw him later at MU, he had bought a Honda 600!! He said come on and I will take you and your wife for a buzz in the little corn-popper!! (AND it made my '87 Chevy Sprint ER look BIG).....

I crawled sideways into the rear seat area and my wife rode shotgun.. He took off and took a square corner doing 45mph in town AND MY WIFE just about passed out!!! Boy the little sucker could corner!!!!

He just laughed and said "doesn't she hold the road good for a little-bitty car??". I coulda smacked him before I cooled down!!! Scared the dog sh-t outta us both!!!

BTW, I will say that I bet only a 30-30 will sound like a 30-30 so I don't know if the Judges will be fooled or not after it is said and done with?? Hope you get by with it....

pdq67

Originally posted by Nickel333:
If you really have an original 64 vette, with the 365/327, are you sure you want to do that to it? You might be talking ALOT of money on the table there, id at least pull the original drivetrain and build somthing else in its place. Im not an originality freak by any means, but when it comes to the really high dollar stuff, you might want to think twice. You know, you are right.

I think because this motor is original numbers matching except the cam, I think the only option is the 30-30 for this engine.

I can build up a 383 or something else with serious balls and a roller cam if I really want to go fast.

I was just hoping to find a cam that had the same sound and charachter as the 30-30 but with a little more umph.

And no, comp cams didn't recommend their N30-30 or the Magnum Muscle cam which I knew about when I asked these questions. Which tells me that they probably don't like the cam.

Oh well.

Actually, now that I look at all their cams,
Isky makes something called the Z-50 which is probably right up the 30-30s alley.

254 @ 50
.507 lift
108 centerline.

Probably run like a bat out of hell above 3200 and have the rough idle or better that the 30-30 has.

Anyone used this cam?

The Z30 has been recommended but when I talked to ISKY they too sugessted the Z50 at first.

The Z30 is a bit smaller than the Z50 with about 5 less duration and about .020 less lift.

What do you think of either of these?

Originally posted by aaronz28:
Actually, now that I look at all their cams,
Isky makes something called the Z-50 which is probably right up the 30-30s alley.

254 @ 50
.507 lift
108 centerline.
84 degrees overlap
28-30 lash

Probably run like a bat out of hell above 3200 and have the rough idle or better that the 30-30 has.

Anyone used this cam?

The Z30 has been recommended but when I talked to ISKY they too sugessted the Z50 at first.

The Z30 is a bit smaller than the Z50 with about 5 less duration and about .020 less lift. The Z30 has 74 degrees overlap with a 30-30 lash setting.

What do you think of either of these?

What about the Z-35? I like the looks of that cam a little better than the Z-30 or the Z-50.

288 deg advertised, 254 deg @.050", .525" lift, 108 deg lobe sep. Maybe throw some 1.6 rockers for a gross lift of .560". This cam looks like it has abit more aggressive ramps, maybe idle a little better, and possibly have more low end.

If you are running stock exhaust manifolds you might think about having a custom ground cam made with more duration and lift on the exhaust side to help the exhaust flow. Just food for thought.

I think the reason my long gone Crippled Buddy went with the Z-30 was so that he could make more low to midrange then the larger cams b/c like said, it is smaller then the Z-50 and 30-30 so does produce more in that rpm range.

I figure like said, the 254 at .050" solid cams along 11+ to 1 CR. and with at least 3.73's AND PREFERRABLY 4.10's and you would have a very fast/quick combination!!

That is IF you want to feed it good gas b/c to me it's not right to detune a motor like this due to todays poor gas.. I would back everything down before I would do that to the poor cam, but jmho.....

At this timing level, the cam deserves a "balls-out" motor combination so the whole sha-bang can run right!!

pdq56

Part of the reason I like the Z50 is because the advertised duration is a little higher, which will mean more seat to seat duration, and a meaner, lopey idle.

Part of what gives the 30-30 its mean ass idle is the fact that it has very slow ramps with alot of overlap, but then it is tamed down with a 114 lobe seperation angle.

With a cam that still has 254 at .050 but nearly 20 less degrees duration at .020 or advertised, like the new more agressive ramp cams have, the idle is cleaned up considerably. Plus you get better low end torque which is a tradeoff.

SO we'll see.

I'll go around this for another week, then buy a cam and be done with it LOL.

A good friend of mine ran the Isky Z-50 in a 327.
That thing had one of the most obnoxious idle's I have ever heard.Noticably rougher than the 30-30 Duntov.He had an M21 and 4.88's in it.We put some Crane 1.6 ratio rockers and it changed everything.
Idled much crisper but higher and RPM'ed through the gears easier.

At least in this case I cant imagine anyone passing off the Z-50 as a 30-30 Duntov..... The Z-30 does sound much closer to a 30-30 Duntov than most any other cam out there that I can think of and will come on stronger in the middle with the shorter timing and 108.

How did the Z50 run when you got on it?

The Z-50 had a very rough sloppy idle and didnt clean up till approx 2800 or so but ran pretty strong from 3800 up.... It really responded to the 1.6's in a very positive way.... grabbed RPM much quicker and just ran stronger everywhere.He had that 327 in two different cars.One the 57 with the 4.88's an Edelbrock Scorpian intake and a 750 DP...The other was a 69 Camaro M-21 and 3.73 with a 302 intake and 750 DP.... Didnt seem to make much difference.... it DID like the 4.88's better than the 3.73's tho....The 57 with the 4.88's was the quicker and stronger of the two cars.

The comparison of the 30-30 VS the Z-50 with 1.5's This car origionally had the same 327 and a 30-30 with the M-21 and 4.10's. The 30-30 was better at idle , off idle up to approx 3500 or so... The Z-50 was stronger from then on up to 7000 or there abouts.He later put 4.88's in it.
...The engine came out and went into his Camaro when he put a 454 in the 57...... Back to the cams.... When he later put the 1.6's on the Z-50.... then the Z-50 ran harder everywhere over the 30-30..... BUT that was with the 4.88's...The Z-50 didnt like the 3.73's nearly as well in the Camaro.

I really cant say for sure as he had headers but I doubt the Z-50 would like ex manifolds at all.I have used ported manifolds with success but never with a cam as long as the Z-50..... I really think something would be lost with the Z-50 and manifolds.

Aaron, regarding the RPM ranges of the cams you are considering, I feel both your intake and exhaust manifolds will be a bottle neck at the upper rev range. The intake really isn't any taller than a Performer, and may be costing you power in the upper revs. The exhaust will likely do the same thing. What is the rest of the exhaust like?

Given the above, you may make more usable power with a smaller cam. I also like the recommendation for a split duration cam. JMHO