Hi guys, I haven't posted here in a long while. Just thought i would drop in a see if I could help answer any induction related questions. I've been porting heads for 17 years and have pretty much seen it all. I now there was quite a bit of discussion on here a while back about some double humps I did that flowed 275 cfm. So if you guys got anything for me just shoot!

2 identical cylinder heads in port & combustion chamber size. One cast iron & 1 aluminum. Hands down the aluminum head out flows and out hp the cast iron head. Why?

Dave

Hey Mike...good to see you hanging out here!! :thumbsup: Welcome.
Mike did a weld repair job on one Trick Flow SBC head that had snapped an intake valve about 1 1/2 ago...awesome job and quick turn time!!
Remember this Mike?? I wish I had taken an "after" pic...

Hi guys, I haven't posted here in a long while. Just thought i would drop in a see if I could help answer any induction related questions. I've been porting heads for 17 years and have pretty much seen it all. I now there was quite a bit of discussion on here a while back about some double humps I did that flowed 275 cfm. So if you guys got anything for me just shoot!

Mike..my tin heads flow 370 cfm @ .700" lift as per the manufacturer.I have a street cam with only .524" gross lift,248* @ .050".My 8-71 roots blower stacks up 8lbs of boost @ 6k.Any idea what i may be flowing thru that 325 cc port with minimal lift and forced induction?

I've been porting heads for 17 years and have pretty much seen it all.
How about some links or good pictures on porting. thanks

Do you use a dry flow bench, or, a wet flow bench to test and revise heads?

Regards,

Milton

Cast vrs. alum. Given two identical heads with only the materials being different there should not be any HP difference unless the additional heat holding properties of the cast iron create some pre-ignition. Typically you will see iron heads flow a bit better poured out of the same molds as aluminum due to less shrinkage after cooling.

Glad the head worked out for you so well Bill. Try not to hurt it again ;)

I'm currently updating the site www.cfmperformance.com (http://www.cfmperformance.com) with a whole new look. I'm going to be putting a ton of pics up as well as a lot of new tech articles. I'll keep you guys posted. Here's a link to a Hot Rod article that have some pics

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0804_541_big_block_cadillac_v8/index.html

I'm still old school and use a dry flow bench. I do a lot of testing on the bench and tehn go straight to the dyno an race track though. I have a butt load of data. I'ma numbers freak and love before and after tests. I'm going to be looking at some wet flow adapters down at the PRI show in Orlando this year. Maybe I'll find something I like.

Is your bulletin board still up? Took me a few minutes to find it but I liked your old username better :D : http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18112

Not sure what questions we can ask you. Are you giving up trade secrets? Is so, how about some tips on porting BBC oval heads. ;) Take a look and post some comments on this thread: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240593

Thank you for your honest answer. I'll stick to wet flow testing, it is realistic.

There is a fairly in depth discussion of this, and has my friend in it, the one that turned me on to wet flow testing over dry flow, on chevytalk.org, performance section. He sent me the following paragraphs from an industry publication he gets every month, with dry vs wet flow info. I post it here just for information.

-----------------

HOTROD & RESTORATION
March, 2008 issue, pg. 41 & 42
"Article: Cylinder heads, Making Head Lines

Section titled: "Flows, real and virtual"

Start

Computer technology is influencing how heads are designed, as well as manufactured. Edelbrock Corporation of Torrance, California has recently started to refine its cylinder head designs using Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD), a sophisticated computer simulation that, "allows us to see the shape of the flow passage of any given part" said Smitty Smith. "That allows us to keep the flow equal in all the ports. The engineers can see on a computer screen where the flow is slow or fast - it shows up red or green - and that helps them tune the radii of the turns". Edelbrock used CFD to design the new NASCAR intake manifolds it is supplying for all four Sprint Cup engines - Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge and Toyota - in 2008. And Smith expects that CFD technology will, "absolutely, increasingly influence the design of street heads in the future".

At the same time, laboratory testing has become more sophisticated as well. "People tend to look at flow numbers", said Jack McInnis of Dart machinery in Troy, Michigan, "and we are trying to dissuade them from that, because (dry) flow numbers only indicate potential, whereas we are big believers in managing fuel as well as air." Dart founder and CEO Richard Maskin designed a wet flow bench for his own Pro Stock program, "but now we use it for our entire product line. It can flow 850 cfm at 55 inches of depression, and that's with fuel." (Dart engineers actually use a solvent that has the same specific gravity as gasoline, but is not as combustible.) "That allows us to monitor the air-fuel ratio, and to see how the fuel stream is behaving. Our small block Iron Eagle and our aluminum Pro 1 cylinder heads were both very good pieces, but when we redesigned them using wet flow technology, they showed a 25 hp increase - with virtually identical air flow as the previous versions."

End.

--------------------

Regards,

Milton

So Midget should we be directing our questions to you..?

Oh, that was a "joke", MIDGET, how clever you are. I take it you think you are as clever with cylinder heads as your wit is.

I always thought these boards were for people to learn, and make better decisions for their cars, NOT stay mired in old tech that isn't current. I appears all the dry flow guru's brainwashing has worked, very, very well indeed.

I must admit, when I, and my friend have asked others that are self procliamed cylinder head porter guru's about wet flow vs dry flow, the same really snotty attitude, name calling, and no new info has prevailed. Too bad, there is one heck of a lot more to investigate in doing porting, and valves, and other induction/exhaust facets, NOT just hogging out a port, and, whacking the edge off that upturn that has a place on a valve angle cut.

I just wonder why all those porting guru's don't ever talk about all the OTHER stuff that is more vital to cylinder head performance, than just dry air flow potential numbers.

But then, I have come to NOT expect much from the dry flow crowd, they just don't get all that newer, more accurate technology.

Regards,

Milton, or, should I start posting as "MIDGET"?

So Midget should we be directing our questions to you..?

Oh, that was a "joke", MIDGET, how clever you are. I take it you think you are as clever with cylinder heads as your wit is.

I always thought these boards were for people to learn, and make better decisions for their cars, NOT stay mired in old tech that isn't current. I appears all the dry flow guru's brainwashing has worked, very, very well indeed.

I must admit, when I, and my friend have asked others that are self procliamed cylinder head porter guru's about wet flow vs dry flow, the same really snotty attitude, name calling, and no new info has prevailed. Too bad, there is one heck of a lot more to investigate in doing porting, and valves, and other induction/exhaust facets, NOT just hogging out a port, and, whacking the edge off that upturn that has a place on a valve angle cut.

I just wonder why all those porting guru's don't ever talk about all the OTHER stuff that is more vital to cylinder head performance, than just dry air flow potential numbers.

But then, I have come to NOT expect much from the dry flow crowd, they just don't get all that newer, more accurate technology.

Regards,

Milton, or, should I start posting as "MIDGET"?

I`m pretty sure he was calling you "Midget" because thats what you have as your name under your user name. I`m also pretty sure he was asking if you wanted to answer peoples head flow questions.

Mike has a pretty good reputaion with cylinder heads. I was first directed to him by one of our resident and well respected engine builders. I haven`t had anything done by CFM performance but thats only because of lack of funds, not because I don`t think he could handle anything I needed done.

That being said, Mike, any suggestions on what I should do on a set of 882 sbc heads with 2.02/1.6 valves? I was just going to gasket match them and blend the bowls.

I have a simple question. Is any of the info in the old SBC Cylinder Head book by David Vizard still valid? It was published in the early 90's. I was looking through it a couple months ago, and that crossed my mind. Obviously, a lot has changed in port designs, etc., but as far as working the old stock iron heads for street engines, is any of that stuff still valid. That book came out about the time you started porting heads, Mike. I'm sure you've seen it. :)

Oh, that was a "joke", MIDGET, how clever you are. I take it you think you are as clever with cylinder heads as your wit is.

I always thought these boards were for people to learn, and make better decisions for their cars, NOT stay mired in old tech that isn't current. I appears all the dry flow guru's brainwashing has worked, very, very well indeed.

I must admit, when I, and my friend have asked others that are self procliamed cylinder head porter guru's about wet flow vs dry flow, the same really snotty attitude, name calling, and no new info has prevailed. Too bad, there is one heck of a lot more to investigate in doing porting, and valves, and other induction/exhaust facets, NOT just hogging out a port, and, whacking the edge off that upturn that has a place on a valve angle cut.

I just wonder why all those porting guru's don't ever talk about all the OTHER stuff that is more vital to cylinder head performance, than just dry air flow potential numbers.

But then, I have come to NOT expect much from the dry flow crowd, they just don't get all that newer, more accurate technology.

Regards,

Milton, or, should I start posting as "MIDGET"?

Sounds like you may have some info on it, care to share it?

Wet flow has been around for ages but not every co especially the little guys have the funds for it. Dry flow has been a standard measure of heads for many years. does it matter to a point if they flowed air, sand or pixie dust through it? Its a point of reference imo thats all. Yes, more to it than numbers but thats whats most easily understood by the average gearhead consumer.
Some love new tech and some are into looking stock and eeking what they can out of iron castings, to each their own.

Mike,

Glad to see you back. :hurray: Do you have a new shop set up in Indianapolis yet? If so, where ya at? :D

Midget what I'm asking is how much experience do YOU have to offer,and when will you be offering your REALISTIC help???? A wet flow bench is an improvement on a process it does not invalidate the usefulness of the present method. I also believe your experience with either method, would be that you have a friend who has a friend that knows someone who works with a Wet Flow bench. So REALISTICALLY you have nothing to offer, and we know Mike does in fact have plenty to offer.
Mike

Hey Mike glad to see you back always appreciate .............suggest you post offer in performance section :)

Alot here with BB street / strip cars using the Brodix RR oval port stock exhaust location heads withthe cnc chamber option ...... have you had any experience with this head ? and if so any insight into the value of mods to this head for street strip cars ...assume some work on exhaust may be beneficial but curious to know if worthwhile for 7k motors ............currently run cam with large split to compensate for h intake / exhaust flow ratio .... did I make any sense ??

where is cfm as they don't list the building location?

midge is the first part of my e/mail address, midge1209. My name is MILTON, and, of course, you already knew this.

As far as info, I can only add that I have had a number of heads done by those mentioned at DART, wet flow ported, and EVERY one was a hitter, no bad ones at all.

The person I also mention is a very good close personal friend of 25 plus years of mine, Dave Ray, aka IgnitionMan, former Special Projects employee for GM, worked directly under Zora Arkus-Duntov, and, Pro-Stock Dominator Holley carb factory tech, ignition system manufacturer and current engine design engineer for Fiat-Yamaha MotoGP team. He was part of the Yamaha team that won its 8th in 10 years MotoGP championship this year. The engiens he designs and modifies are inline 4 cylinders, 800cc's, 225 to 240 horsepower, and, tractable enough to ride to work every day, Dave knows his stuff, and, he knows people that also know their stuff. I trust him, and others like Dick Maskin and crew, to do my heads right, not by antiquated methods and testing.

Now, before you go whining about Dave working on motorcycle engines, and, apples to oranges, he also worked with a great number of both Chevrolet and other American push rod engine configurations in his 38 year career.

As I pointed out, there should be a more open board that people can both ask questions on, and, not be fed the attitudes I have seen on some of them about new, and better technologies, and, NOT that only one person knows it all, as this head porter implies he does. I am sure he is of good intention, but, do you, the inquisitive reader and poster only want HIS answers alone, or, do you want more/ALL the info, and up to date technology?

Choice is all yours, LOOK at the alternatives before blindly believing anyone as God of this or that.

Regards,

MILTON, NOT MIDGET.

Milton...
Look up in the upper lefthand corner header of each one of your posts just below your screen name. That is the area where a first or nickname is listed.
Your's somehow says "Midget". :confused:
If this is not correct, you'll need to change it. Go to "User CP"... far left in blue bar near the top of the page to do so.

No one here is making fun of you...:noway:
You wouldn't happen to have a son name Beaux would you??

NOT that only one person knows it all, as this head porter implies he does.


Milton I saw nothing in Mike's post to suggest he thinks that way at all. I took exception to your total dismissal of anything Mike might have to offer,simply because he is not making use of the newest develpments in flow bench technology. There's been a hell of a lot of horsepower found by the guy's that know what they're doing using a dry flow bench. And as you confirmed in your last post,none of it was found by you.
Mike

potential gained from ported Brodix Ik180cc heads with 202/160 valves.
are their claimed flow numbers close to what they actually flow?

im thinking for my combo i should be making around 350whp, but it dyno'd 303/336 on a dynojet with a stick and a 10 bolt. i got the timing set in better, but its def not a 50hp jump. im thinking an intake swap and having my brodix professionally ported.

aaron

milton...
Look up in the upper lefthand corner header of each one of your posts just below your screen name. That is the area where a first or nickname is listed.
Your's somehow says "midget". :confused:

You wouldn't happen to have a son name beaux would you??
lol!!!

Milton...
Look up in the upper lefthand corner header of each one of your posts just below your screen name. That is the area where a first or nickname is listed.
Your's somehow says "Midget". :confused:
If this is not correct, you'll need to change it. Go to "User CP"... far left in blue bar near the top of the page to do so.

No one here is making fun of you...:noway:
You wouldn't happen to have a son name Beaux would you??


I was trying to tell him that but I guess he didn`t catch that.

I've found that most Brodix heads rarely flow what they are claimed. Not to say they are not good heads, but the numbers on some of them seem inflated. Most benches vary up to about 2.5% so I take that into consideration, but even the curves don't follow. That makes it pretty clear something is up.

The Oval RR heads are pretty darn good, They really filled a void with these. Good numbers, easy bolt-on. What more could you ask for. They will respond to porting as most any head would. The CNC chamber is a good option. To see signifigant gains you will have to go in and reshape some of the port. There really isn't any little tricks for quick power in there. I can't remember if the IN valves are back cut. If not you can throw a 30* angle on the back side about .060" wide. This will boost the low lift flow.

The old David Vizard books still hold a lot of water. The info was good then and still applies today. Especially with old iron heads. They haven't changed since that book was published. Bowl work and a port match go a long way on heads like the882, 441 etc. it's often worth around 30HP.

The 180 RR heads will get better with porting as well. Tell us more about your combo and maybe we can see where your HP went.


The New CFM shop will be located at
3024 S. Five Points Rd.
Indianapolis, IN 46239

I'll be working on it this weekend trying to get some thing set up. I will be sharing space with M&M competition engines. They do some really high end race motors and we are combining forces. it is now a full service shop!
Check there site at http://mmcompetitionengines.com/

The Oval RR heads are pretty darn good, They really filled a void with these. Good numbers, easy bolt-on. What more could you ask for. They will respond to porting as most any head would. The CNC chamber is a good option. To see signifigant gains you will have to go in and reshape some of the port. There really isn't any little tricks for quick power in there. I can't remember if the IN valves are back cut. If not you can throw a 30* angle on the back side about .060" wide. This will boost the low lift flow.

Thanks for the info Mike .......exactly what I looking for ....freshening up the motor so will definitely look into the valve back cut etc ........Thanks .Bill

Mike;

Please check your PM's.

Eric

355 96+ roller block
9.8:1cr, 5cc 4 valve flat top pistons
felpro 1003 head gasket
block decked .015 piston is .015 down i think.
Lunati voodoo hydraulic roller. 231/239 @ 50, 282/290, 535/550 lift with 1.5 rockers
comp 987 springs (could be on the softer side, but does not float.. not yet at least).
holley 300-36 dual plane intake
1" 4 hole spacer (now running a 1" open, seat of pants feels stronger)
3310 750 vac sec carb 71 primary jets, (current 70)
day of dyno 20* base, 21 mechanical for 41* total, plus vac advance after i got home it was 55* total at 3k :0
now its 20* base, 18 mechanical for 38* total in at 3k with no vac advance
Distributor is MSD pro billet, with 6AL box, and blaster II coil
long tube headers, X pipe, moroso race muffles, and a muncie 4spd.

heads are brodix IK180, 180cc runner, 202/160 valves. box stock.

i think one issue could be push rod length. i ended up going with stock length 7" i think. Stock length for a factory roller motor. i wonder is that is holding me back.

air fuel..
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/ssclonelq9/Chevelle/aaronairfuel.jpg

dyno graph..

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/ssclonelq9/Chevelle/Picture003-1.jpg


aaron

I have one????

Can the 305HO, -601 head and flast-topped pistons w/ just a good stock valve job be bowl-blended and dingle-berry port casting flash cleaned up good enough to flow decently on a 301 engine?

Say, like up to 8,000 rpm.

Or should I stick w/ my big valve -291's and domed pistons?

As always, asking questions and trying to learn.

pdq67

I posted this just now over on Little Brother hoping that JohnZ will post back?

"Why did GM switch from the "W" engine's valve layout to the BB valve layout instead of canting the "W" engines valve layout so it could be used on the BB?"

I ask b/c to me it appears that a "GM DESIGNED" canted valve "W" engine valve layout would be better than the long/short port present BB head layout is.

Is it b/c the "W" engine head has 6 bolts around each cylinder and the BB only has 5??

Let's quit the crap so we can learn something!!

pdq67

Paul,what are you talking about?
Mike

OK!!

Will mildly worked over 305HO, -601 heads feed an 8,000 rpm 301"/306" Z-28 SB engine?

And 2nd, why did GM engineer Mark IV BB heads instead of just canting the valve placements and casting in head chambers in the "W", 409 engine heads?

To me, the 409 "W" engines head doesn't have the Mark IV BB's good port/bad port problem??

This thread is about head questions, isn't it?

pdq67

BowtieA, looks like about a 15 cc bump in intake port volume along with the additional flow would pick up your rwhp numbers a bit. It would take a full port to do it, but you should see about a 25 to 30 HP gain at the wheels.

PDG67, stick with the 291's and the domed pistons. sounds like it will make more power to me.

The "W" design got eliminated because of the chamber in the block deal. It wil too hard to make compression without have a 6 pound piston. Course the Mark 4 wasn't much better, but better none the less. I do a lot of aftermarket "W" motor stuff. The port volume is just not there with an asymetrical port design. So the Mark 4 allowed them to add some volume and flow.

355 96+ roller block
9.8:1cr, 5cc 4 valve flat top pistons
felpro 1003 head gasket
block decked .015 piston is .015 down i think.
Lunati voodoo hydraulic roller. 231/239 @ 50, 282/290, 535/550 lift with 1.5 rockers
comp 987 springs (could be on the softer side, but does not float.. not yet at least).
holley 300-36 dual plane intake
1" 4 hole spacer (now running a 1" open, seat of pants feels stronger)
3310 750 vac sec carb 71 primary jets, (current 70)
day of dyno 20* base, 21 mechanical for 41* total, plus vac advance after i got home it was 55* total at 3k :0
now its 20* base, 18 mechanical for 38* total in at 3k with no vac advance
Distributor is MSD pro billet, with 6AL box, and blaster II coil
long tube headers, X pipe, moroso race muffles, and a muncie 4spd.

heads are brodix IK180, 180cc runner, 202/160 valves. box stock.

i think one issue could be push rod length. i ended up going with stock length 7" i think. Stock length for a factory roller motor. i wonder is that is holding me back.


That combo should make more power than that. My wifes flat top 350 with just pocket ported humpers and a flat tappet hydraulic made 330 RWHP. Your's should make closer to 340-350 RWHP.

there are lt4 hot cammed lt1's (basically my motor with heads that flow 200cfm) making 330whp, and the lt4 hot cam is an old outdated cam.

the fbody cam/bolt on only record was held with a LPE (lingenfelter) 211/219 530/550 (w/ 1.6 rockers) running 11.8's in the 1/4.

there is more in my combo, there has to be, i now the heads might seem small, but low end tq is pretty good. im thinking pushrod length is not long enough.


aaron

Why is it that I read where the "W" Z-11 engine head is one of the best flowing heads made?

Even better than the later Mark IV back then.

pdq67

It's pdq67.

And right, I know about the "W" heads flat chambers and them having 16 degree canted block decks that put the chamber in the block like the old MEL Ford engines back then but they were 10 degree!

BUT what would happen if the same "W" head port layout was used on the mark IV heads??

pdq67

Mike-
I've been curious on what kind of pick-up Edelbrock Performer RPMs would have with some mild work? Have you worked any of these?

thanks
Mike

Mike, What is a good day & time to call you & discuss head work?
Thanks, Fred