I was talking to the Green Rocket and another buddy of mine at a local car show on Friday and something interesting came up. Dan has had two rollers fail on his mid 10 sec Chevelle. Cam is .660 lift 200# at the seat. He is thinking one of the reasons he is having failures is do to the fact he is running a crank scraper and windage tray. When you consider the rollers get most of their oil from the crank splashing around it makes since.

I have over 5000 miles on my solid roller with no issues.

Any thoughts on this? I am considering tapping into the back of my block and fabricating a spray bar type direct oiling system for my 572.

rv,
Most of the guys that I know who are running a "real" roller cam with those types of seat pressures, are putting the lifters in the trash every season. Even with a bunch of racing, it probably only adds up to a couple of hundred miles of running. Most street roller cams do not run much more spring pressure than a good hydraulic, and will probably live longer. Maybe thats why yours has lived ok. The street roller cams usually do not have quite as severe opening and closing ramps as the real race rollers either. We have built marine engines with hydraulic rollers and they run hundreds of hours with no problems, but they do not turn them 7000 rpm, more like 5000 at most.
I am going through this same dilema on a 355 I am piecing together for my Heavy Chevy. I really want to run a roller, but also want it to live a while. Should be interesting to see what others have experienced.

Bill,
With fairly aggressive rollers you want spring pressure.
In my opinion one of the worst thing you can do to a roller is not running enough spring,, it will beat the crap out of them.
I have some pretty big rollers on the street & won't run them with less than 200+ on the seat & 500+ open & do not have problems.
I have one I know has over 15000 miles on it & last I heard everything still looks like new
We run the Red Zones in circle track in some engines 2-3 seasons before rebuilding & they look & feel excellent.
Couple of things,,
First, Don't skimp on lifters, I use nothing but Isky Red Zones.
The Crower with the Hi Pressure Oiling option is also excellent but I prefer the Isky as it has pin oiling standard & is rebuildable.
Second, don't let the engine idle a bunch.

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Crap,, forgot top answer the original question graemlins/clonk.gif
If you are running standard rollers I probably wouldn't run a scraper for street use but a tray is no problem.
With the lifters that have pressure pin oiling this shouldn't be an issue.
If you look at a dry sump deal it has almost no oil getting thrown around compared to a wet sump & I have one endurance (SCCA road race) engine that runs 9200+ with a dry sump, 11" of vacuum in the crankcase & runs all season before replacing the lifters (.904 Isky's)

My current roller is 180#, .652 lift, fairly aggresive street profile.

With the 572 I am building I plan on running differant rocker ratios to take some open pressure out of the mix. I have a set of 1.8's and plan on setting the cam up with those in the race mod. I also have a set of 1.55's I will use on the street. This takes the .750 lift cam down to .645 or os with the 1.55's. This will be a very limited 13.5 to 1 street motor. Thankfully most of the car cruises and shows are very close to my house.

I have a set of the Isky lifters. I also cryo freeze almost every thing in the valve train, lifters, springs, cam, and the rocker arms.

I agree with Wolfplace, Spring pressue, and oil!!

I run a 406 SB with a Comp solid roller mild street .236 duration 110 LSA and now have 7,000 street miles on it. Seat pressure is 205, and 485 open, lifting to about .585 with the help of 1.6 Crane Gold rockers. Rev limiter for the street is set at 6,000 and get to see the rev limiter every time I drive it. I put a 7,000 chip in it for a while and liked it too much, so changed back to the 6,000 for the street, hehehe
I have a screen, but no scraper as you need lots of oil up to the cam from splash. If you scrape the crank you loose all that extra oil splash. I try not to idle, even at a red light I rev and pop the motor to at least 2,000 to get splash to the cam, easier than most as I have a standard. As well when driving down the street in normal 30 to 40MPH traffic, I try at all times to keep in a gear that allows at least 2,000 RPM. Do not lug the revs down, as its as bad as idling it.

My belief is that much the same as breaking in a new cam, a solid roller likes 2,000 RPM to get adequite splash, but at all times, not just break-in. A new cam needs splash, a solid roller wants it ALL the time!
I have Comp solid lifters, change 20w 50 Castrol oil ever 400 to 500 street miles.
When, I change the Cam, ( soon Wolfplace) the Isky Red Zones are going in for sure. Then maybe I will change oil only every 700 for my severe street duty cycles.
It pays to be anal about oil and spring pressure issues with solid rollers.

I hope to be starting up my motor today. It is a 408 bb with a comp 690 lift roller with 200# and 495# spring pressures. I have a windage tray and scraper in the motor, I bought one of those cam oilers but decided to make my own. I put marks on 2 lifter just above the pin for the roller and put them in the motor and set the cam on it's base circle and measured the distance between the 2 marks horizontally and then measured from that flat plain 90 degrees up to where the center of the tube is. I drew out a tringle using the measurement to find where I had to drill the holes to direct oil at the rollers. Then I put the cam in and with the lifters on the base circle used a machinists ruler and held the edge flat against the roller to make a mark on the tube straight in line with the edge of the roller and the lifter body. As the lifter goes up and down the roller gets oil all through it's travel.I tested it using a faucet opening the faucet gradually, full on water pressure is suppose to be about 60#+ I think and my triangulation worked pretty close. I'm using a Manley high volume pump rated at 60# pressure. I had a melling hv in the last motor with no problems. I'm using Kendal Super D3 fleet motor oil for break in and afterward. When I put the tube in the motor I made marks on the top to make sure the holes lined up with the roller edges. I have pictures of my oiler but the film is still in the camera. Also when you drill into the oil gally you do it at the front end of the motor.

For my street flat tappet mill, I opted for the simplest form of windage, a deep 7 qt sump with only 5.5 qts of oil. Since we also tightened the rod side clearances to .015" from the .022-.025" they were at, so I opted for oil bleed lifters. All this to keep a mildly aggressive flat tappet alive for normal street use ( like not keeping the R's up at every streetlight). Only baffle/scraper is a rear one to keep the oil from washing up on the rear main when you accelerate hard. FWIW, this motor is making measureably more power than the last which was outfitted with a tray and scraper and hv pump ( never again). This one seems even more comfortable at 7000 rpm. Amatuer observations, so again, fwiw.

Like Mike said, screens are nice. And I'd add deep sump pans help windage somewhat.

I kinda believe in everything Wolfplace said and also not restricting the oil galleys.

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
I am considering tapping into the back of my block and fabricating a spray bar type direct oiling system for my 572. I would like to hear if the spray-bar type oiling system would take the place of keeping the revs up.

I'm considering a solid roller for my 383 and would like it to live a long life without having to keep it revved up at every stop-light.

All the spray stuff is real nice & helps.
Problem is it's not the roller/cam junction that is the major problem.
It's the needles & without pressure oiling like the Isky's & Crower with the oiling option you are still not putting oil where it is needed most, you are just spraying oil at the outside of the roller.

And I agree completely about not using restrictors but mainly because it detracts from spring cooling.

On flat tappet stuff I use Isky's SO series lifters with the EDM hole in them for solids & I groove the lifter bores for hydraulics.
I also use the grooves on some solids without the EDM lifters with smaller less aggressive lobes.
If you are gonna get nuts with a flat tappet order the P55 core cam & use the tool steel lifters made by Precision. They can be purchased from Precision, me, Carl at CNC Blocks or Crower or you can go to Schubecks if you like to spend lot's on lifters :D

I have had no trouble with the Isky EDM ones so I don't usually recommend you spending 300+ on a set of tool steel lifters ;)

Mike.

I agree it is not the lifter to cam contact that is the problem, it is the actual needle bearings. My plan is to squirt the oil from the side and aim it at the needle bearings, not from the front aimed at the wheel to cam contact.

I am going to nitrous flog my 454 for a year before I complete the 572, so I will have lots of time for R and D on the 572. I will fab the system up and then pressurise it and mess with it from there. Is there somebody that makes a pre fabbed kit ?

The Isky SO EDM's sound like they might be the ticket to last "forever" on a mild street cam (small block, less than .525" gross lift with 1.5 rockers).

Do you supply them? I just visited your website (Very nice. Love those "dogs"!) and didn't see anything about parts sales.

Mike
I would also want a little more information on the Isky Lifters. I just finish my short block and ready to install the top half. Right now i'm using the VT-1992 Lifters. Comparison Please....

427L88
Whats the problem with running my Milodon Diamond Stripper Windage Screen, Milodon Crank Scraper and Melling HV Oil Pump on the street. This is exactly what I just installed in my bottom end SBC 400.

Originally posted by cjlandry:
The Isky SO EDM's sound like they might be the ticket to last "forever" on a mild street cam (small block, less than .525" gross lift with 1.5 rockers).

Do you supply them? I just visited your website (Very nice. Love those "dogs"!) and didn't see anything about parts sales. =
CJ,
Yes, I supply them but I don't sell off the site.
If you email me I can probably save you a dollar or two ;)
My site has 5 pages linked at the bottom of the pages & although not complete a lot of vendors I deal with are on the "Link" page ;)

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
Mike.

I agree it is not the lifter to cam contact that is the problem, it is the actual needle bearings. My plan is to squirt the oil from the side and aim it at the needle bearings, not from the front aimed at the wheel to cam contact.

I am going to nitrous flog my 454 for a year before I complete the 572, so I will have lots of time for R and D on the 572. I will fab the system up and then pressurise it and mess with it from there. Is there somebody that makes a pre fabbed kit ? =
Sorry, missed your question graemlins/clonk.gif
No one I know of makes a prefabbed kit but there is probably something out there.
The spray bar sounds sorta ok but I think you will find it's pretty hard to get the oil to the needles as they are pretty well hidden.
The Pressure lifters have an internal passage drilled into them that actually gets oil to the needles.
=
Deeboo the 1992's are a stock generic lifter.
You could have your lifter bores grooved for a little extra insurance if your machinist has the tool or use the EDM ones.

Mike,

I have a set of the Red Zone's PT# 272-96-RH, are these the right ones ?

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
Mike,

I have a set of the Red Zone's PT# 272-96-RH, are these the right ones ? =
Yep, that be them graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Damn,, guess I can't sell you any :D

Interesting Topic for another reason.... I ordered a Tremec 5 spd and had to chose the OD ratio , most felt should go with .64 so i could cruise at 1500rpm etc I just couldn't beleive my motor would like that type of rpm continously so opted for .82 which puts me at 2200-2500 rpm at highway speeds ..what I hear you guys saying is more importantly my solid roller would not oil sufficiently at 1500rpm cruise speeds too. I had not considered that
Mike, any idea what seat pressure the springs on those Brodix BBO's I bot are ??

What is the downside to using a HV pump?

Mike,

I got some of the Red Zones # 272-96-RH. Are these the right ones ?

Thnaks for the info

Bill,
Should be about 220/500-550.
I believe I ordered them with steel retainers & roller springs correct?.

No reason to use a HV pump especially on a BB. All you do is bypass more oil.
GM used a slightly larger pump on the L88, I don't remember the numbers but the Melling & other HV pumps are quite a bit larger & are harder on the drive gear, consume a little more HP & just try to put more oil through the bypass as it ain't gonna fit through normal bearing clearances. ;)

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Ratt,,
Yes, they are still the same lifter as they were a couple of posts ago :D

Right the L88 ( now LS7) pump is just slightly larger than stock ( 1.3" gears), but not as large as an HV. HV is useless IMHO and adds nothing but loads to the various components that drive it. Required for remote/turbo aps only, imho. Didn't save the old L88 from being pretty wiped after 30K miles.

Mike,

Sorry for the double post, don't know why that happened, regardless thanks for the help. Next time I will buy them from you. ;)