i'm gonna hafta strap it down..southside machine discontinued lift bars for my 73 chevelle.whats the best alternative for my coil spring suspension? i need something that will hold up to 575h.p./510tq. and up to 200h.p. shot of nitrous.i was thinking about adjustable ladder bars or no-hop bars.do no-hops work with coil springs? i guess if i go with ladder bars i need to get the kind you weld to the car for strength? keep in mind i'd like to keep my rear anti-sway bar.i'm gonna need something to keep from roasting the tires halfway down the 8th mile.

No-Hops work Very Well.

Observe this video..

http://www.boomspeed.com/mc71454/no_hop.wmv

First Stock, Second with No-hop bars.

I amn running a Dick Miller setup with No-Hop Bars and adjustable uppers, etc. The adjustable uppers are needed so I can adjust pinion angle and rear suspension preload.

nice! :eek: looks like with the no-hops you don't have as much wasted energy on launch due to the rear squatting and the front lifting.looks like the rear tires hooked better too.thanks for the demo! smile.gif

The no-hops relocate the instant center (IC) and introduce "anti-squat". instead of the suspension squatting, the chassis separates pushing the tires down while pushing the body up. more efficient use of the energy.

http://www.boomspeed.com/mc71454/InstantCenter_crop.jpg

What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing?

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing? You would have my suspension.
I did just that.
Works great and I was able to set my pinion angle.
My car lifts about 1.5 inch on a launch.

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing? A BIG No-No IMO. That creates a very short, very violent instant center. Use one or the other, but not both.

Which will work best with boxed arms, 10.5 inch tires and a 4000lb G-Body?

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
Which will work best with boxed arms, 10.5 inch tires and a 4000lb G-Body? Southside Machine lift bars..Jegs still makes them for the G body

bowtie455, also consider boxing your control arms, adding poly bushings, and Air-Lift bags (at least in the right spring). These items alone or combined with no-hop bars should work well, and you can keep your anti-sway bar. Someone will chime in with a shock recommendation too, I don't have an opinion one way or the other on that. Definitely don't get the old bolt-on style "frame breaker" ladder bars. Good luck.

thanks for the excellent help guys!i certainly plan on getting a full set of boxed control arms.i'm working on a good financial strategy for some extra $$$,so i intend to sink a good portion into a carefully considered street/strip combo pretty soon.man,now i'm even dreaming up drag racing scenarios in my sleep!the anticipation is killing me! graemlins/boring.gif graemlins/clonk.gif

Basic rule of thumb:

For automatic cars with less gear and footbraking go with the lower point relocation (SSM's).

For a stick car or car leaving off a transbrake with some big power go with an upper point relocate like the no-hops. The lower relocation generally hits the tires harder, thus in faster cars with big power or those with the above stated characteristics it blows the tires off or pops the front sky high.

th-400,.456 gears,4000 stall,no transbrake,projected 750 h.p.on nitrous,which is best,upper or lower?

4 link graemlins/waving.gif

i already have a 4 link...from the GM factory. :D i'm thinking seriously about the rear suspension package from dick miller racing.

i've heard good things about the Dick Miller set ups though i don't know of anyone personally that is using it. Metco also makes a good set up with all 4 control arms, though a bit pricey, but probably no more than the DM set up. it's too bad they don't make the SSM bars for your car anymore, because they are about the best bang for your buck that there is for suspension upgrades.

i placed an online order with jegs a while back for the ssm's and they sent a notice telling me they had been discontinued for my car.same goes for summit.i tried calling ssm and no luck.i think they went through some kind of business reconstruction at that time.i sure wanted the darn things! :(

The SSM bars wouldn't be very hard to make, or have made by a basic fabrication shop if you had a set to duplicate.

I too have a traction problem and need more info. The way I understand it is that no hop bars mount to the upper control arms at the diff. and change the geometry there and the lift bars replace the lower control arms and change the geometry there.
I am on a budget..lol like most people..no hop bars are less money...which one do you think will give the most improvement?
I have a 427 and a p/glide with 4:11s..line lock and 3000 rpm stall..my car wieghs around 3900lbs. all opinions and suggestions most welcome...
thanks Steve B

I had bad wheel hop so tried the no-hops. I still had hop. Used the SSM bars and the hop stopped and never returned. Others have had excellent results with no-hops. I guess it depends on the car, the power, and the way the rest of the suspension is setup.

I believe Metco makes a lift bar of the same or similar design as the SSM lift bars. Probably aluminum and probably a lot more money.

Bowtie... your combo sounds similar to mine and I decided to relocate the top mount, but I think depending what rpm you lunch at, how the weight is distributed in your car, and your shocks... the lower relocation could work well too. Pat hit the nail on the head that it truely is trial and error. I like the upper relocate for that kind of power though because in my old 4 link car that generally worked better then messing with the lower. Another option is simply to get adj. uppers, box your lowers, and get some stiffer bushings and see how the car fares. I'm amazed at how well my buddy's 500+ hp 455 Old cutlass plants with just Hotchkis uppers, lowers, and braces.

The Dick Miller stuff doesn't plant really fast cars and can cause problems due to the pre-load from what I have been told by 3 owners of the system, but I have never used it.

BTW if you are looking for suspension stuff I have a set of Hotchkis adj. uppers for sale that are pretty much new if you were interested.

Originally posted by CaptCrunch:


1. I decided to relocate the top mount, but I think depending what rpm you lunch at, how the weight is distributed in your car, and your shocks...

2. I like the upper relocate for that kind of power though because in my old 4 link car that generally worked better then messing with the lower.

3. Another option is simply to get adj. uppers, box your lowers, and get some stiffer bushings and see how the car fares.

4. The Dick Miller stuff doesn't plant really fast cars and can cause problems due to the pre-load from what I have been told by 3 owners of the system, but I have never used it.

1 and 2. Relocating the Top Mount is exactly what No-Hop Bars do.

3. There is No reason to get adjustable uppers Unless you need to modify your Pinion Angle Due to No-Hop Bars And/Or to put Preload into the suspension. I don't recommend anyone playing with the Pinion Angle unless you are ready to do some serious and Very careful A-B-A testing. The debate is still out as to the advantages of modifying your pinion angle in a coil sprung car.

4. This is completely wrong.... You do not need to put any Pre-load into the suspension with the Dick Miller kit. You can if you want to, I have a Very slight amount because I still use the air bags and 12-way shocks to add the pre-load I need when I get to the track. The adequate amount of Pre-load for the track would be awkward on the street, so I choose to have 1/2 turn of preload in my upper right control arm. This system will plant the tires for just about any 60 ft time of course this assumes it is properly adjusted.

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:
I had bad wheel hop so tried the no-hops. I still had hop. Used the SSM bars and the hop stopped and never returned. Others have had excellent results with no-hops. I guess it depends on the car, the power, and the way the rest of the suspension is setup.

I believe Metco makes a lift bar of the same or similar design as the SSM lift bars. Probably aluminum and probably a lot more money. I have seen this many times too Pat...same exact scenario.

Each time it had to do with a stock lower control arm with factory bushings..was this the case in your ride?

Originally posted by bowtie455:
i already have a 4 link...from the GM factory. :D i'm thinking seriously about the rear suspension package from dick miller racing. IMO the Dick Miller setup is not required. Get a set of no hop bars or SSM bars and a good set of boxed lower control arms and poly bushings. If you go the SSM route you can set the pinion angle using their kit. If you go with no-hop bars you may want to invest in a nice pair of adjustable upper control arms. I use the Edelbrock no-hop bars. Edelbrock also makes a very nice set of adjustable uppers that can be adjusted without disconnecting the control arm. Metco is also another good choice. I run the Hotchkis upper/lower bars and IMO they're overpriced for what you get. The Hotchkis upper control arms are single action and must be disconnected to lengthen/shorten. Not a big deal but, it is a little aggrivating when you're first getting the pinion angle dialed in. Spend the money you save by not buying the Miller kit on a nice pair of double adjustable shocks. I run QA1 Stocker Stars. They are a good shock. Afco also makes some nice shocks.

As others have mentioned you want the rear tire to separate from the body. This can be accomplished with either SSM or no-hop bars. Then you need a QUALITY shock to control the amount of separation. Without good shock valving the car will separate too much in the rear. In extreme cases the rear will separate so much that it will top out the shock travel and unload the rear tires. It's also possible to unload the rear tires without topping out shock travel. If the rear end rises too much it will alter the weight bias and negatively affect weight transfer from front to rear. The rear spring rate/height plays a small role in this process as the torque is usually able to overcome the spring rate thereby making the shock the limiting factor.

To set up your rear suspension jack the rear of the car up and place jack stands underneath the frame in front of the rear tires. This will allow the suspension to hang freely at maximum extension (assuming the tires are off the ground :D ). Take a measurement on both sides from the tire to the wheel opening. Lower the car back to the ground and take the same measurement with the car on the ground. You'll probably end up with 3"-5" of extension. Without proper shock valving the car will fully extend the rear suspension on launch and unload the rear tires. Therefore your shock valving must set to allow some extension but not full extension. In most cases I believe you will find that 2"-3" is all that is required to plant the rear tires. After a couple hundred passes and detailed notes I've found that the shock valving is critical to getting the launch dialed in and consistent. The need for a video recorder and slow motion replay cannot be overstated when it comes to dialing in your suspension. Start off with a 50/50 valving on the rear shocks. See how the car hooks. If it's spinning then try setting the shocks looser a little at a time. If it's hooking on the initial pass then try tightening the rear shocks a little at a time. It takes some time and you need to ensure that your keeping good notes and limiting variables (burn out procedure, launch rpm, tire pressure, etc...).

Lastly, a rear sway bar or anti-roll bar are very helpful in distributing the torque between the two rear tires.

Good luck.

For what its worth, I took everyone's advice and put my suspension back at a stock ride height. Hotchkiss lowers and reinforced factory uppers with rubber bushings in the top. Simple KYB shocks. No wheel hop at all. Traction isn't so great with a street radial tire (and a front drop coil spring) but at least it doesn't hop. From having messed with these cars years ago, the very basic thing to start with is to get the lower control arm parallel to the chassis. As soon as you raise them up, you have to start changing parts to correct the geometry.

Just to Clarify, I agree with Ken and I do NOT have the entire Dick Miller Setup.

I have his No-Hop Bars and the adjustable uppers and lower control arms. That's it.

He gave me a nice package deal to also buy the lowers. I needed them since my factory lowers were not boxed and they desperately needed new bushings anyway. By the time I purchased and installed poly bushings, boxed the factory lowers, sanded, primed, and painted them it wasn't worth it since time is always my biggest foe.

The reason I went with the DM no-hops is because they matched with his adjustable uppers that did not need to be disconnected to adjust them and the no-hops have two mounting locations to change the severity of the hit on the tires. Since I bought my DM no-hops, Edelbrock and some others have come out with the same on-car adjustability the DM's have unlike the Hotchkiss uppers which you have to remove one end to make length adjustments.

As Ken said, I also use quality QA-1 Shocks to control the extension during launch and it has taken many passes and video to determine the proper settings. These shocks are well worth it.

When running in the high 11's and slower the KYB gas shock was all that was necessary for me in the rear suspension.

Hope this clarifies a little

Tom,

I remember reading in a few old posts that you tried the no-hop bars and the launch was too violent. Were you using a quality rear shock absorber at that time? I'm just curious why the no-hop bars work on some people's cars and not on others. I tend to think it's shock (and perhaps to a lesser degree spring) related.

Yes, Ken

I tried the Edelbrock No-hops and it really lifted the rear too much on launch which in turn I felt was too violent. That was the reason I ended up with the DM bars that have the higher and lower mounts, I use the lower mounts. I did have the QA1 shocks on at that time.

The front suspension travel and reaction, the Torque applied rear shock valving, and chassis stiffness, etc. will have a role in the reaction at the rear so some no-hops will work, some won't. I like the DM's because you get to try both mounting points in one bar.

Originally posted by mc71454:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pat Kelley:
I had bad wheel hop so tried the no-hops. I still had hop. Used the SSM bars and the hop stopped and never returned. Others have had excellent results with no-hops. I guess it depends on the car, the power, and the way the rest of the suspension is setup.

I believe Metco makes a lift bar of the same or similar design as the SSM lift bars. Probably aluminum and probably a lot more money. I have seen this many times too Pat...same exact scenario.

Each time it had to do with a stock lower control arm with factory bushings..was this the case in your ride? </font>[/QUOTE]This was with boxed lowers with poly bushings, Edelbrock No-Hops, stock uppers with poly bushings, a 1" sway bar, and 50/50 CE shocks. I was acutally rather glad the no-hops didn't work since they hit the bed of my Elky.

My son has tried a few things on his '70, 540 powered, Chevelle. He started with a Competition Engineering three way adjustable shock which worked fairly well then went to a three way QA1, that didn't work at all, then back to the C.E. shocks. This car has close to 800 H.P. and probably needs a twelve way double adjustable such as a Koni. It also has Moroso high energy springs, adj. shocks and the front sway bar removed. A Dick Miller anti-roll bar in the rear has helped the car leave a lot better.(not twisting the frame now). The Hotchkis Adjustable upper rear control arms seem to help but a double adjustable like Dick Miller makes would probably work better. I found him very difficult to deal with however as he refused to sell the setup except as a complete kit which i couldn't use. (ford rear end in car and trouble free for 6-7 years with lots of abuse). My son somehow got him to sell the anti-roll by itself. Best 60' is a 1.38 but average is about 1.45 so far.

No offense intended Harold, but I would expect your son's car to be 60'ing much better than 1.45 on average at the power level you're at assuming that your suspension combination was really working. There are quite a few guys on here (FatRat, Mike, etc) that are 60'ing in the high 1.3x range on average with way less motor. My car has been 60'ing mid-high 1.4x on tires that have over 90 passes on them. Again, no offense intended, just that maybe at your power level these bolt on solutions aren't optimal. BTW, I wasn't aware that QA1 made a 3-way shock :confused:

While I've got all you suspension gurus here...

I'm fixing to restore my Yenko Chevelle. Right now it's in about a hundred pieces, but while the body is out getting whipped into shape I thought I'd address the suspension. This car is gonna be raced, but unlike you guys and your fat tires, I run in "Pure Stock" events which means I have to make do with an F70-15 Polyglass tire.

I'm gonna use aftermarket (poly?) bushings, but after that I'm stumped. From what I understand, you want the lower control arm parallel to the ground? I've had an L-78 Chevelle and an LS-6 Chevelle, and driving them was like night and day. The L-78 was a low mileage original, and sat low 'n' mean, whereas the LS-6 was restored and sat a tad high due to new parts...but when you gassed on it, you can guess which one hopped like mad and which one just hooked. From then on, I figured lower was better.

According to the rules, we're allowed hop-stop bars and that's it, but I know of a couple of A-body guys in my class that tried them and didn't like 'em. So, anyone have any advice on hooking a skinny tired car using stock parts? The engine is gonna be the same as our Pure Stock Camaro, so it's gonna have 400 ponies or so at the wheels, but this one's going to be a 4-speed...

Originally posted by mc71454:
1 and 2. Relocating the Top Mount is exactly what No-Hop Bars do.

3. There is No reason to get adjustable uppers Unless you need to modify your Pinion Angle Due to No-Hop Bars And/Or to put Preload into the suspension. I don't recommend anyone playing with the Pinion Angle unless you are ready to do some serious and Very careful A-B-A testing. The debate is still out as to the advantages of modifying your pinion angle in a coil sprung car.

4. This is completely wrong.... You do not need to put any Pre-load into the suspension with the Dick Miller kit. You can if you want to, I have a Very slight amount because I still use the air bags and 12-way shocks to add the pre-load I need when I get to the track. The adequate amount of Pre-load for the track would be awkward on the street, so I choose to have 1/2 turn of preload in my upper right control arm. This system will plant the tires for just about any 60 ft time of course this assumes it is properly adjusted. 1&2. Exactly... I didn't think that no-hops=upper mount relocation needed to be clearified. Sorry if that confused anyone. I still think the best way to see the difference between the 2 types of suspension tricks is to draw it out
http://www.mnracing.org/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/crappy%20drunk%20sketch.JPG
As you can see the IC ends up in very different locations. By looking at the IC's... the general rules of thumb posted above basically fit.

3. I have had good luck in slight adjustments of pinion angle in coil sprung cars. You do bring a good point that you do need to know what you are doing though and if you don't do some learning you can get in some trouble.

4. Like I said I have not used the system, but I do know a few that have and trust their opinions on the system because they have combos that work and have cars in the single digits ET-wise. Obviously if anyone has read this entire post and compared it to ET's there is more then one way to skin a cat here depending on your exact combo. This debate always sems to go in this fashion and from my analysis it seems like if you run 10.5's and slower most times a lower relocate works well and if you run faster an upper relocate works better. Both have exceptions though that usually are caused by weight distribution, converter/tranny/gear, and/or launching technique (t-brake/footbrake).

Using the diagram above I'm not seeing a big difference in the stock IC and the SSM bar IC. I'm thinking the old slapper bars would be more effective than the SSM bars for both wheel hop and IC. I'm speaking in terms of a heavy 12 or 13 sec quarter mile car though. They are a bit gaudy hanging under the car but I'm starting to feel like that's the way for me to go.

I've seen some home-made bars that weren't much more than a couple of pieces of "L" shaped 3 Ft long tube steel welded to the axle and hinged to a crossmember in front that worked awesome back in the old days. I guess that would make the geometry similar to ladder bars, but that car was unbelievable on 7" slicks.

Anybody got any home-made traction devices?

Hi Capt Crunch..

yeah I understand about clarifying statements I have found that being overly clear is a benefit on message boards, I know I am guilty of thinking everyone knows the whole story on a particular topic from time to time and many times have to come back and edit a post to clarify something I was trying to say that was interpreted differently. no biggeee smile.gif

On #4 I interpreted your statement as the Dick Miller Setup causes problems due to Pre-load, My point in the response was simply that you don't have to dial in a bunch of pre-load.

I wasn't really disputing that it doesn't plant well into the 8's or 9's, but I am a little curious as to how far they took the suspension adjustments to determine it didn't work well if you happen to have any details for future reference.

..I am not there YET ;) . But I do feel if I modified my combination to dip the 9's I could still hook it...Time will tell I guess ;)

Have a Good one..

Yeah I definetly agree that clearity is a good thing mc71454. Especially in a topic such as this. graemlins/thumbsup.gif