Just driving along easy thinking how great my motor was running then BANG! As you can see by the pic below the link broke, allowing the lifter to spin, the cam busted off the roller and what was left of the lifter chewed the cam. My bad though, that lifter was giving me adjustment issues, I should have pulled it but I thought I had it adjusted and set. The roller is still in the pan, I'm going to drain the oil and flush with solvent. If I can't get the roller then it is decision time.

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Ouch! How old were they?

Gary:

Yikes! What brand of Hydraulic Roller and type of Anti-Cam-Walk device where you running? What was the End Play of the cam? How many miles on the engine and the type of oil?

I bet that lifter bore is shot as well.

Ron

Gary:

Yikes! What brand of Hydraulic Roller and type of Anti-Cam-Walk device where you running? What was the End Play of the cam? How many miles on the engine and the type of oil?

I bet that lifter bore is shot as well.


Ron

There is a lot I don't know about the motor, the lifters and cam are Erson, not many miles on the motor since the build, don't know exactly. The bore appears ok, we slid another set of lifters in and they moved nicely. I was using Rotella 15W-40 with a quart of Marvel Mystery oil, I think I will change to a synthetic, the new roller tip rockers looked a bit heated like maybe the oiling wasn't as good as it should be. But like I said, that lifter was displaying adjustment issues many miles prior to failure. The cam has locking tabs at the chain gear to control end play.

Pull the motor and strip it completly down. Can I ask what this means: "The cam has locking tabs at the chain gear to control end play."
Mike

ouch!

Was the link bar still properly attached to that pair of lifters? Looks like that lifter turned sideways??

I would just pull it, your more than 1/2 way there now.

I was using Rotella 15W-40 with a quart of Marvel Mystery oil, I think I will change to a synthetic, the new roller tip rockers looked a bit heated like maybe the oiling wasn't as good as it should be.

Was the Marvel Mystery oil used as a constant, or just a one shot to clean up internals? It should not be used as a constant, as it does not have the viscosity to lubricate and cool to begin with, much less having it at oil temp. I could see if using it constantly, it would contribute/cause what you saw on the rockers.

I have to admit I by no means have any meaningful knowledge and/or experience with small engine overhaul and performance, I suppose that also will be changing. The locking tabs I was referring to are a set of locking tabs that bend over the 3 cam bolts, according to my friend who has much more experience than I, these tabs keep the cam from sliding back and forth, or out. I added the Marvel Mystery Oil to the existing oil in an attempt to quiet that lifter a while back. I did leave it in there.

The link bar snapped, I don't know why it broke but it must have been related somehow to the adjustment issues I was having. Once it broke it allowed the lifter to turn.

I have to admit I by no means have any meaningful knowledge and/or experience with small engine overhaul and performance, I suppose that also will be changing. The locking tabs I was referring to are a set of locking tabs that bend over the 3 cam bolts, according to my friend who has much more experience than I, these tabs keep the cam from sliding back and forth, or out. I added the Marvel Mystery Oil to the existing oil in an attempt to quiet that lifter a while back. I did leave it in there.

The link bar snapped, I don't know why it broke but it must have been related somehow to the adjustment issues I was having. Once it broke it allowed the lifter to turn.


Those tabs only keep the cam bolts from loosening, you must have a thrust button or thrust roller in place to control the cam end play. Late model engines have a retaining plate behind the sprocket to accomplish the same thing.
The oil you are using should be fine with a roller. As was already said the Marvel Mystery really should not be left in the engine for extended running.

A cup of MMO is fine in the oil!

And a full big bottle a couple of days DD her before an oil change! Just don't hammer on her b/c the oil will be thin like stated.

I like MMO.

And, right, if you didn't have a cam thrust button between the timing cover and the cam face, there is a possibility that the cam walked and the lifter fell off it's lobe, got caught, locked and broke off.

How far off am I guys?

pdq67

A cup of MMO is fine in the oil!

And a full big bottle a couple of days DD her before an oil change! Just don't hammer on her b/c the oil will be thin like stated.

I like MMO.

And, right, if you didn't have a cam thrust button between the timing cover and the cam face, there is a possibility that the cam walked and the lifter fell off it's lobe, got caught, locked and broke off.

How far off am I guys?

pdq67

Ok, I know what you're referring to now, yes it did have the thrust button

Donno??

Sorry.

pdq67

With lifter adjustment issues id say the cam and or the roller on the lifter was starting to go south and it was just a matter of time after that.

What a shame....Good luck.

a quart of Marvel Mystery oil

A cup of MMO is fine in the oil!

How far off am I guys?

pdq67

Paul,

A cup before an oil change, yes. But not a quart of MMO in place of regular oil between oil changes!

Not good at all.....

Smittie,

I wish you the best in getting her back together!

The majority of Thrust Button installations are insufficient for Retro Fitting a FT engine to Roller Cams. Don't expect the stock timing cover to be strong enough to prevent the cam from flexing it and bouncing the cam back and forth. Bolt a steel flat bar across the rear of the water pump with a threaded bolt and nut lock to interface with the timing cover for strength. There can be 400lbs of pressure at this location. Ensure the roller is centered in the middle of the cam lob and use 2 or 3 lube-impregnated washers between the back of the cam gear and the front cam bearing boss of the block to lock the cam end play to with in .004". I do not recommend the use of Torrington Bearing wear or back-lash plates as they are referred to because I've seen them fail, contaminating the engine with the needle bearings. Isky make a very solid Anti-Cam-Walk device with a special timing cover based on this principal. Another thing, I suggest you drill a 1mm hole in the PSGR Front Tappet Oil Gallery Plug to lubricate the Anti-Cam-Walk Device and timing chain or gears whatever.

You will have to totally dissemble that engine, oil pump and galleries for cleaning and inspection. Hopefully you will have minimal damage - Good Luck.

"I suggest you drill a 1 mm hole in the PSGR Front Tappet Oil Gallery Plug to lubricate the Anti-Cam-Walk Device and timing chain or gears whatever."

You mean take a 1/16" drill bit and drill a hole an 1/8" up from the big cam hole straight into the thrust face into the oil gallery?

Or take a small triangle file and file a small notch half into the cam bearing up top in the front cam bearing oh so easy so that some oil leaks out and lube's the thrust face!

pdq67

Thanks for the help and support guys, I really appreciate it. I got a call today from my engine guy who took the cam and lifters to his machinist. As it turns out the remaining lifter rollers are shot as well from, you guessed it, the cam flexing against my cheapo tin/chrome timing cover. I took a closer look at the cover and you can see where the cam thrust button was flexing the cover out. I will be showing this thread to my engine guy to discuss our plan of attack. I strained the oil today and flushed with a gallon of diesel, I really didn't pick up much but we are going to at the very least raise the motor, pull the pan and have a look see at the cylinders and whatever debris we recover. Fortunately the engine shut down quickly when the lifter gave way and I was only at about 1800 rpm.

That would be a mistake.
Mike

Thanks for the help and support guys, I really appreciate it. I got a call today from my engine guy who took the cam and lifters to his machinist. As it turns out the remaining lifter rollers are shot as well from, you guessed it, the cam flexing against my cheapo tin/chrome timing cover. I took a closer look at the cover and you can see where the cam thrust button was flexing the cover out. I will be showing this thread to my engine guy to discuss our plan of attack. I strained the oil today and flushed with a gallon of diesel, I really didn't pick up much but we are going to at the very least raise the motor, pull the pan and have a look see at the cylinders and whatever debris we recover. Fortunately the engine shut down quickly when the lifter gave way and I was only at about 1800 rpm.

A cast aluminum cover will give you the support you need. The Cloyes is VERY nice, but pricey. I have that on my BBC, and will use it on my SBC.

I have seen timing fluxuating with a timing light due to the cheap chrome cover (don't worry, I have one on my SBC). As a test I put a jack handle between timing cover and water pump and applied pressure, timing turned rock steady.

Glad to see you are on the right track.

Walter, my buddy said he already ordered me up a cast aluminum cover, good info thanks. Man, I always hated that cover because it was impossible to keep clean and more impossible to seal up the leaks. Live and learn, huh? Kind of expensive lesson though. I'm going to take advantage of the situation though and swap out my Victor Jr. for a more street friendly Edelbrock intake manifold as long as I have it torn down to that level.

Mike, do you mean the mistake is not pulling the motor? We may do just that. I want to go over all this info with my engine guy. I just had the trans out twice and I just did the A/C install so if I can avoid not pulling it, I would be happier, but I hear what you guys are saying. Won't we be able to see a lot by pulling the pan and inspecting the cylinder walls and such?

Yeah,Gary I know it would suck but think about how much money you have invested in that motor. You will have the front off the motor,the intake off,the cam out and the motor lifted up to allow the pan to be pulled. Then you will have to hassle with trying to remove bearing caps so you can look at the bearings. You mentioned the rollers on the other lifters going away,think about how much metal must be moving around inside your engine,and don't believe for a minute that it's all been captured in the oil filter. I would treat that motor like it just came back from the machine shop. I would open up every oil gallery,pressure wash and scrub each one before I thought about closing that motor up.
Mike

Gary,

If you are going to use an aluminum cover, make sure you use either a teflon or a roller type cam button. Do NOT use the gold aluminum type, they will gall up against the aluminum cover. I have been using the teflon ones for years and have never had a problem.

I have personally not had any major problems with just using the stock front covers. There really should not be a lot of pressure against it unless there is a serious misalignment of the camshaft tunnel compared to the crankshaft. The distributor / oil pump drive gear is cut in such a way that it is always pulling the cam to the back of the engine anyway. Roller cams absolutely need something to keep them from moving forward, but I seriously doubt that there is 400lbs of force there. If there was, the teflon cam buttons wounld be worn away in a very short time. I have freshened up maring engines I have built after 300 hours and have never seen a button worn at all.

Again...

""I suggest you drill a 1 mm hole in the PSGR Front Tappet Oil Gallery Plug to lubricate the Anti-Cam-Walk Device and timing chain or gears whatever."



You mean take a 1/16" drill bit and drill a hole an 1/8" up from the big cam hole straight into the thrust face into the oil gallery?

Or take a small triangle file and file a small notch half into the cam bearing up top in the front cam bearing oh so easy so that some oil leaks out and lube's the thrust face!"

pdq67

I'm a believer in not letting threads hang unresolved. So I wanted to update this thread as my friend and I have been working on the car when we had the time in between family functions, etc. We did pull the motor as you can see below. We only found debris in the pan, none in the oil pump, none in the cylinders or anywhere else. This was a relief.

New hyd lifters and cam, new aluminum timing cover, new roller button, one piece oil pan gasket and I opted to replace the Victor Jr. manifold with an air gap performer. I took that tin timing cover out to the range and shot it full of holes for therapy!

I ran it today and I still have to tune it, I'm waiting for my friend to come over this weekend since I'm not in a hurry and want an experienced assist. But the good news is it runs and runs nice.

Thanks for all the tips, I appreciate them.

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