I have already chatted with WolfPlace bout building a 406 for the chevelle, the most important thing I want to decide is the heads because that where the power plant starts. I have heard information on Proline heads, AFR 210, Brodix RaceRite with CNC bowl port and would like to get somemore information from members who are running 406's or similar combo's. I realistically want to get around 500Hp and 500 lbs toruque from the 406, and I have seen some TC members who have great times and power with their build-up.

Please feel free to recommend cam!

Also Pat Kelly if you are reading please school me on the correct DCR that I should aim for. I would like the engine to run on 91 octane pump gas.

I would hit Mike up for some AFR's...for the most power, I think they offer the best aftermarket head...IMHO. :D

I would second the AFR's. I would have gone with AFR's but it was a timing issue. I have iron proline 200cc heads and they worked out pretty good.

For that power you I think you would go with a roller setup for cam. I am running a large cam (XE294) to help with my DCR since my compression was higher than I had planned.

I am hearing good things about AFR here is what I have from Wolfplace

"AFR 210 for about the best out of the box head going.
The new Brodix RaceRite series is also excellent if you get it with the CNC chamber option.
I would shoot for 10.5 - 11.0 compression max if you are wanting this for the street. A solid roller in the hi 240- mid 250 range with a Vic jr & an HP 950 or a Mighty Demon 750 would be my choice depending on your preference.
On the cam I would always run it by Ron Iskenderian or Harold with my thoughts as this is what they do & they can tell me how far off I am LOL

The intake is kinda iffy. For torque it is hard to beat the EDE air gap & it will make excellent power to around 6000 before the Vic will usually start making any serious improvement. The Vic will usually start pulling ahead around 45-4800."

Not sure if I want my compression higher than 10.5 is this possible with the HP numbers I want?
I am planning on using my Air RMP and my Demon 650 mechanical secondary.

You've got mail...

Thank you Hoffbug!

So Tony,

Can you let me in on your combo?

- John

John.. You've got mail.. I think? Hoping your e-mail address hasnt changed in the last couple of years. I cant send attachments with this thing they have on here.

My 405 made 440hp and 500 ft-lbs with a small hyd flat tappet(xe-268) and a dual plane and AFR 190 heads. It seems a larger street roller and a single plane should put it near 500hp. My friend made 495 hp with a set of home ported TFS-R heads and a small hyd roller. He spent a lot of time on the little things. You are on the right track for looking for a good set of heads as your starting point. I don't think 500hp is a hard number to achieve with a 406 with all the good parts available today.

I suprised that you all are making great power with the AFR 195, I wonder if the 210 will be to much?

I was going to suggest Tony H. but he beat me himself. graemlins/beers.gif

Jim

What compression you guys running, do you know your DCR. I know that with a bigger cam it will bleed off

My 406 is running around 10.5. DCR turns out to be under 8:1, around 7.94:1.

Here is a link to my combo. Scroll down for the results. The engine is cammy, but a 406 makes torque. If I could redo it, I woud open the heads chambers slightly to drop compression a little and run a slightly smaller cam.

http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=022203

AFR 195`s

I have a 406 with afr 195's and a big cam. Dyno trip comming up soon so until then no hp numbers. To me the 210's are to big unless your going to pull past 6500 or more rpms regulary. The 210's won't even start to out flow the 195's until you hit upper rpms I would think. I don't have the numbers but that is my understanding of bigger cc heads vs for ex. 195's. I put my 195's on last year to replace some 441's and the difference was incredible.

Now I need some more input on which cc set of heads would be better, I heard from two machinest including Wolfplace the I should go with 200 or 210's what is benefits of going with these two versus the smaller? I am aware of the cam being a important part of matching this combo so I hope UDHarold can recommend a grind.

on airflows website the flow charts for the heads are pretty close between the 195 and 210. As the lift increases the gap starts to change between the two. I believe to get the correct flow out of the bigger heads you needs rpms and lift. That is my understanding of it anyway. On a 406 I have heard due to the cubes you can either go with the 195 or 210 head. I choose the 195 and have no regrets.

Faulkev

I am thinking with the rest of my combo I should be able to get my RMP's high and in the power range while on the street. The 3.73 gears and the 700r4 with the 2400 stall usually allows me to get into high RMPS very fast, because it seems to me that the difference of these heads will be what RMP will the most power be produced 4500+ or 3500+. Are AFR heads bowl ported or ported anyway when coming from the factory, I am referring to the raceready series and not the competition series.

You are not going to go wrong with either head.
The 195 will work excellent & for a street performance deal may be the better choice given you are staying with the Air Gap & 650 Demon but,,,
The 210 will not hurt you & for a 500+HP 400+ inch solid roller deal I feel it is the better choice.
It also gives you the room to "grow" as HP is slightly addictive.
Why don't you call Tony at AFR & get his opinion.
Very easy to talk to & extremely sharp when it comes to heads. Also what cam lobes work with his heads. ;)
Tell him I told you to call & harass him :D
And feel free to email me if I can help you with either head or anything else.
You might also post what Tony has to say about your choices for everyone.

Mike I am waiting for the price from you on the AFR heads. You mentioned the Solid roller cam but because of the occationally adjustement to the rockers I would prefer a hydraulic roller, is their any you would recommend in hydraulic roller?

What is Tony's contact number?

1-818-890-0616
Just ask for Tony
I will email you on the prices. ;)

I believe they are all cnc ported 70 to 100% from the factory. The competition package is just some extra bowl work so an AFR rep told me. He said unless you pulling 7 grand the competition isn't worth it. I will make it a point to post my dyno runs when I do it. I can tell you this when I put my afr's on my engine changed quite a bit. The biggest difference was airflow I had to rejet my carb. Initially it made my headers glow due to the increase in air fuel mixture. I think I paid 1400 and some change for them fully ready to go out of the box. That includes guide plates, studs, springs and of course valves.

faulkkev

Where did you purchase your heads?

Ok I think we have the heads situated now if I can get some cam recommendations?

Cam?
Pistons?

I am going with scat Rods and Crank!

I bought mine from AFR directly so all parts are good quality. You have to be careful at other shops that sell AFR heads. They buy them bare and use cheap parts. Not all of them do but if the price is to good to be true then there is your reason. I had to wait months for my heads but they were moving to a bigger facility so that may not be an issue anymore. As for a cam in my 406 I have an isky 292 duration 505 lift with 1.6 roller rockers so the lift is 530 or so int/exh. It has a lift of 244@50 with a 108lc so it raps up quick(hyd cam by the way). I love the way the car runs the cam is real rough idling and after about 2500 rpms screams.

I forgot to mention my heads are 64cc which bumped my compression to 10.1. The pistons are 9.5 by default. The car runs on pump gas just fine. I heard you can go 10.1 or a touch more with aluminum heads?

Faulkkev

What kind of power you making with your set-up, have you ran it at the track yet?

Originally posted by Spawn22:
Pistons?SRP Flat tops. Go with a 74 cc chamber. They will yield around 10.5 to 1 compression depending on your deck height. Perfectly fine with aluminum heads and performance cam.

I have never ran it at the track. I go to car shows and cruise around mostly. I really don't know but am hoping the dyno test I run will yield upper 400's to 500 at the fly wheel. I would like 400 or more at the rear wheels. I am happy with the motor it screams.

I run the brodix CNC Race Rite on my nasty little 11:1 350, currently running 89 octane gas wich is awesome cause of how expensive premium is right now. I havent had it to the track yet but opening day is april 17th i believe, and i plan to be there. As far as the head itself goes, it dosent give up, outstanding low lift numbers that were proven by mike lewis, and the top end numbers .600 & .700, are withing 2-8 cfm of the track 1 out of the box. Ive had my motor singing the 8,000 RPM song more than a couple times and there seems to be no drop in power. But again i have no numbers to give you, so i guess we will see how she runs at the track.

Originally posted by Spawn22:
Ok I think we have the heads situated now if I can get some cam recommendations?

Cam?
Pistons?

I am going with scat Rods and Crank! -
Spawn,
If you feel like taking a ride tomorrow or Sat I have a Scat crank sitting in the balancer so you can see the quality of their 4340 cranks.
Also some of the newer 7/16 capscrew I beam rods.
Nothing like seeing the stuff in person before making a decision ;)

I also have a nice 4" stroke Oliver Billet crank sitting here if you want to step into a "slightly" higher end piece :D
Talk about a work of art,, this sucker is just gorgeous

And have a set of new AFR SB Ford heads sitting here so you can get an idea of what you would be quality wise from them too.

Wolfplace, where in northern california are you located in? I am heading up to cool april nights next weekend. My in laws live in corning, los molinos, and red bluff.

Originally posted by sobever066:
Wolfplace, where in northern california are you located in? I am heading up to cool april nights next weekend. My in laws live in corning, los molinos, and red bluff. =
About 1.5 hours north of Santa Rosa on hwy 101.
up in Redwood country,, Laytonville CA

Originally posted by sobever066:
Wolfplace, where in northern california are you located in? I am heading up to cool april nights next weekend. My in laws live in corning, los molinos, and red bluff. If you come to the drag races..look me up. I will have a 11 second 67 chevy C10 long bed...it kinda looks like a farm truck..lol

Are most of you guys running eagle, Scat Rods and Crank? I want to be able to rev the car above 6500 or to 7000!

Spawn,
Not a problem with the forged stuff.

I have been running Scat stuff for over 10 years without any problems that were the fault of Scat.
Their quality control is excellent.
They do all of the finish grinding & profiling of the 4340 stuff in house.
On their cast cranks they are finish polished & checked for size in house before sending them out & their reject rate has been in the 20% range!
Guess where these "Blems or rejects end up??
They also do cranks clear into the $2500+ billet range.
I have had some real problems with sizing issues on Eagle cranks in the past so I do not use them.
All the Eagle rods that I have seen looked very good & the sizing was pretty much right on.
I just don't have a reason to use them as I get Scat for a decent price & feel their cranks are the best of the lower priced stuff out there.
In the past 10+ years I have never had to send one back for any reason.

If it were in your budget, of course my choice would be Oliver but it ain't cheap!!

As I said in my previous post, if you would like to see the stuff in person let me know.

I have heard nothing but great things about Scat, most likely I am headed in that direction. Mike I would like to take a trip up that way but if I do you better believe that I am going to have the 400 block with me, but thats a little ahead of myself. I am however going to most likely get those heads from you. The AFR seems alot cheaper than the Brodix RaceRites with CNC bowl ports, so I am leaning towards AFR's 210's, I may have to do a split payment though if thats ok with you.

Spawn,
Just call me or send me an email & let me know how I can help you.

I like to let folks know I can usually save them a buck or two where I can here on TC but don't feel it is the best place to discuss pricing & such graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Here are all my parts that I have gather in the garage for my buidl-up once the assembly get back from the machine shop...

SBC 408 PARTS and PRICES
MANUFACTURE DESCRIPTION PART# PRICE
AFR
Heads 195cc AFR-1036 $1,425.00
Price include
Springs Upgrade part #8033
(setup 130-140 seat 330-350 open)
Steam Holes Drilled part#1062

ARP
Main Studs ARP-234-5501 $51.95
Head Bolts ARP-134-3701 $58.95
Oil Pump Stud ARP-230-7002 $6.50
Oil Pump Shaft ARP-134-7901 $13.95
Fuel Pump Pushrod ARP-134-8701 $14.95
ARP Cam Bolt Kits ARP-134-1001 $3.95

CLEVITE
Main Bearing MS1038H $55.00
Rod Bearing 8-CB663H $55.00

CLOYES
True Roller Timing Chain CLO-9-3100 $60.09

CRANE
Energizer Roller Rocker CRN-11744-16 $132.50

EAGLE
H-Beam 6"Rods CRS6000B3D $335.09

EDELBROCK
Elite Air Cleaner EDL-4207 $49.88
Elite Valve Cover EDL-4249 $69.95

ELGIN Solid Lifters VT1992-16 $50.00

FEDERAL MOGUL
Cam Bearings 1235M $19.00

FEL-PRO
Head Gasket FPP-1014 (2x) $63.90
Intake Gasket FPP-1205 $13.95
Rear Main Seal Align Bored FPP-2909 $18.95

HOLLEY
Carburetors 750 Vac Sec HLY-0-3310S $249.95

LUNATI
Flat Tappet Mechanical LUN-280/284F10 $183.71

MILODON
Oil Pump Pick-Up Screen MIL-18311 $34.95
Milodon Street/Strip Oil Pans MIL-30900 $123.49
Diamond Stripper Windage Tray MIL-32250 $74.95
Lifter Valley Screen Kits MIL-23150 $15.95
Oil Pan Baffles MIL-32500 $5.25

MELLING
Oil Pump MEL-M55 $15.95

MR. GASKET
Oil Pump High Press Spring MRG-26 $3.95
Oil Filter Adapter $14.95

PIONEER
Brass Freeze Plugs SBC 400 $14.95
Harmonic Balancer PIO-872003 $95.88
168 Tooth Flexplate $34.50

SCAT
4340 Int. Bal. Crank 4-400-3750-6000 $490.00

SUMMIT
Fuel Pressure Guage SUM-800115 $19.95

WISECO
Pro Tru Forged Pistons PT020H4 (0.040) $419.00

PARTS TOTAL COST: $4295.94

Here is the engine machine work that has cost me $635.00
MACHINE SHOP
K&P MACHINE
Deck (.000) $150.00
Align Honed Mains $135.00
Tap Starter Bolt $30.00
Hone Finish Cylinders $60.00
Tap 3 Oil Holes $15.00
Install Deck Plugs $100.00
Bore w/ deck plates (.040) $120.00
Install Cam Bearings $25.00

Machine Shop TOTAL $635.00

Total: $4930.94

I mock the block up for clearance last week myself and now the rotating assembly is getting balanced and pistons mounted to rods. So I can add a couple more hundred in the buildup: graemlins/hurray.gif

Originally posted by Wolfplace:
If it were in your budget, of course my choice would be Oliver but it ain't cheap!!
Wolfplace..
Whats is your opinion on the Oliver "sportsman" rods? The budget ones not the $$$$$ parabolics. Also what do you think of Cola crankshafts as compared to Eagle and Scat?

As I said, I do not use Eagle cranks.
My understanding is Cola is out of business & most of their remaining cranks were bought by Howard's.
Haven't checked this personally but this is what I was told.

I just got finished balancing a Cola that I had to take about 450 grams off of.
About 125" off most counterweights & .200 off a couple. :eek:
Nice crank but I have to tell you standing right alongside the new Scat if their was no name you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them.
I had both of them sitting on the table comparing sizing, counterweight clocking etc & they were pretty much identical.
They also were both a bitch to cut down the counterweights on in the lathe & cut as close to the same as I could tell material wise.

The forged Oliver rods are a top quality piece as is all Oliver stuff but none can be considered "budget" :D
Their new crank is a work of art. In the class with Winberg & Bryant.

Originally posted by Wolfplace:

My understanding is Cola is out of business & most of their remaining cranks were bought by Howard's.
Haven't checked this personally but this is what I was told.
Thanks for your opinion.. I run a cola crank and oliver sportsman rods in my 406. ;)

I believe that the Cola cranks being sold by Howards are leftovers from the now defunct Summit engine shop. Howards told me that they bought out the remaning inventory from Summit.
I hope you are wrong about Cola going under! I had a great conversation with Raul Negrete.I know that his partner was diagnosed with cancer. He gave me quite an insite into foriegn made and machined crankshafts. ;) graemlins/sad.gif

Got in late on this 406 topic. My Eagle 4340 crank was factory balanced, but by the time we hung all of the H-beam rods on etc., we still had to add heavy metal. Wolfplace is rite on the crank issue, Scat is better. I did go with the Brodix CNC RR heads however at 200CC. And I have nothing but 100% praise for them. Unbelievable low lift TQ monster heads.
I have a rev limiter on my 406 at 6,000, as its a street car, but that rev limiter is starting to really bug me because it hits 6,000 way too fast in every gear.
I will shortly be taking the car back to a chassis dyno to see if we now can break the 520HP mark. I believe on a Dynojet we should now show at least 430+ at the wheels with this combo.
Wolfplace will in the next few months be getting an order from me for a cam/lifter upgrade, not for more power, but a change to the better Isky Red Zone lifters. I now have 4,000 miles on my Comp lifters and cam, and its time for a " safety " type change. All street miles on that solid roller, and its got me scarred. Just a little too much city idling time listning to that plop plop good idle sound. Bad news for a solid roller cam.
Here is my engine spec.
*406 CI 509 GM High Nickle block, decked Line hole
*5.7 Eagle ESP 4340 H-Beams Rods
*Eagle ESP 4340 3.75 stroke
*Probe Ulta Light SRS #1302-12340 10.5:1 -15 CC Dish, 481Grams
*Bore 4.155 Quench .039
*Internal Balance to zero/zero grams
*68CC Brodix RaceRites Heads 200CC CNC 2.08, 1.60 Brodix valves
*1.55 Springs Titanium Retainers 10 degree locks
*Rocker arms 1.6 Comp Gold 7/16" stud
*Solid Roller Comp#CS280A-R10 .587 lift 236/236 dur at.050 LS=110
*Cam is 106 LSA installed straight up, running 94, no ping
* 205lbs seat 490lbs open 1.55 double springs
*750 Grant Speed Demon DP Mech
*RPM Air Gap Manifold, K&N side and Top filter
*Moroso 7 Qt Kick, with scrapper, windage tray, HV Pump
*MSD Mech Billet Dist, no Vac advance, SS Blaster coil
*MSD 6AL, 8.5MM wires
*Hooker 2207 Super Comp Ceramic 30" 1-7/8 primary
*2 1/2" full flowmaster 50 series
*B-Cool with 2 11" electic fans
*Rear gear 3:73 Eaton Posi / 25.7" tall 10.2"wide tires(tread)
*Tranny SuperT-10 1st=2.43, 2nd=1.61, 3rd=1.23 4th=1.0

I think the reason you needed heavy metal was the 5.7" rods...im using the 4340 eagle crank and 6" H beam eagle rods and it took very little balancing..no mallory metal...just a couple of holes