I am looking at these three motors to buy, they all need to be rebuilt to really perform. i currently have a 2 bolt 350, and i want more torque/hp. I want to get up to about 500 tq and 450hp. what would you guys suggest? thanks

with the right heads and cam those buicks are monsters. The big block chevy could be done too,but cubic inches is where its at.

The Buick will require different frame mounts, different trans or an adaptor plate, re-routing wiring, etc. Yes, they are torque monsters if built right, and if you can get oil to the lifters and crank, 'cause Buick really screwed the pooch when it came time to design the oiling system. Even worse than Olds!

I'd be looking at the 396. At least it'd bolt in with relatively little problem.

I had a long talk with a local performance builder around here. The buick 455's are great TQ motors, but in all honesty die at 5000rpm or less. He has done quite a few of them and was dyno'ing one today. They make serious torque-- extremely serious. But they are very rpm limited. I think the best thing is to know what you want to do with your car, and ask a trusted builder what motor is the best to do it with.
matt

Originally posted by MadMarv:
I had a long talk with a local performance builder around here. The buick 455's are great TQ motors, but in all honesty die at 5000rpm or less. He has done quite a few of them and was dyno'ing one today. They make serious torque-- extremely serious. But they are very rpm limited.Matt,what I'm about to say,please don't take offense..
Flamethrower ON: Is this "performance" builder an idiot? :mad: What does any engine "dying" at 5000 rpms and being rpm limited have to do with it making hp/tq? Read this:
http://www.diecastmusclecars.com/buickgs.htm
That GS ran a 10.36 @ 130 MPH,and looks stock!
Torque is what gets you down the track in a hurry,and remember,we don't race dynos
rpm ability has nothing to do with ET or HP..
either it has hp/tq or it doesn't
you can have a high winding combo you shift at 8000 rpms or a torque monster at 5000 rpms..doesn't matter,its all up to what you want
Flamethrower OFF :D

A 400 small block and a 396 will make close to the same hp/tq numbers..me personally,I'll take a 396 anyday graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What does any engine "dying" at 5000 rpms and being rpm limited have to do with it making hp/tq?
Torque is what gets you down the track in a hurry,and remember,we don't race dynos
rpm ability has nothing to do with ET or HP..
either it has hp/tq or it doesn't
you can have a high winding combo you shift at 8000 rpms or a torque monster at 5000 rpms..doesn't matter,its all up to what you want
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]My 505" BBC was on a DTS dyno and made it's peak power at 5400-5500 rpms at 593hp, and torque was 646 ft/lbs at 4100 rpms, no it won't wind high, but the power and torque are definetely there. Unfortunately theres no timeslips YET, I haven't been able to drive it yet, but I've heard of people not reving over 5500 rpms that run into the 10's.

I've had both Big Block Chevies and 455 Buicks and in the real world there is no contest to which motor will run the hardestand give you the least amount of trouble. The Chevy wins hands down. My 455" buick is laying in the garage floor with #5 rod sticking thru the oil pan as the result of a former wife who didn't know what a spun bearing sounded like. Spun bearings are a common problem in the big block Buick because they have 3.25 inch main bearings and bad oiling systems. Believe me when i say there are lots more 13 second Buicks than 10 second ones.

I don't understand why you need to rev harder to achieve the quicker times :confused: . Wouldn't two cars with an identical set up run the same if on engine's power band 1500 rpms higher providing the gears are adjusted approprietly? her's what I mean:

Engine 1:
400hp @ 5000
400tq @ 4000
3.73 rear gear
Engine 2:
400hp @ 6500
400tq @ 5500
4.10 rear gear

Both would have ...say 325 average hp and tq and the same curve wouldn't they run the same times in the same car and all that changed was where the power came in and the gear ratios (those are very rough guesstimates)? even with the same stall? I would think you would want your power to come in sooner than later? I dunno just thinkin' graemlins/clonk.gif .

i wouldnt even think of putting the buick in a chevelle,but between the 400 smc and the 396 ,i would go with the 400 with a good set of aluminum heads makes light weight package,the 396 would be like building a 283 ,its a waste of money when you can build bigger motors for the same cash or less,thats just my .02

I've got to go with vegadan on this one. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

i look at this way, best cost effective build up: since you already have a 350 and do not own any of the other motors you mentioned, i think the best way would be to build a 383 out of the 350 you already have. the Buick is definately limited without a ton of cash to invest in it, so i wouldn't even consider it. between a 400 or a 396, it's pretty much a toss up, but i prefer a 400. if you have a big block everyone expects it to be a runner, but when you have a small block and it is fast, people don't expect that so much. the less money you have to shell out for a core the more money you have towards the actual build up. i'd go 383 if it were me. ;)

i would go with the 400 with a good set of aluminum heads There's your answer everytime with the smallblock big block debate,you have got to get a set of heads to make a small block run,the big block already has them, you'll smoke the small block everytime,unless he's got a bottle in the back graemlins/thumbsup.gif

It don't take much to make those 455's to run, though they are limited,much like the small block by their heads,install a good cam, improve the oiling system and its tough to beat the Buick.

what kinda of serious torque was the 455 making?

Why do you say its a waste to build the 396?

it costs basically the same to build a 396 as it does a 454 or 468... so why not have more cubes? You cant use the 396 block however

Originally posted by Adman:
Why do you say its a waste to build the 396? ..far from it.I have a 396 that went 12.45/106 MPH in a 3400 lb. car

In the late 60's my 375 H.P.- 396 layed waste to most everything running around on the street. Granted there wern't many really fast street cars back then but the Chevy Big Block has evolved into a killer combination because it is tougher and faster and can take more punishment than anything G.M. builds. This old 396 ran 11.58 @ 117.64 with a flat tappet cam, 850 carb, 4 speed and 4.88 gears.

12.45 with 3400lbs and a 4.10 gear seems pretty doggy to me, unless it was running at 3000ft elevation or more. my buddy's flat top 383 with hydraulic cam, dual plane intake , 3.73 gears, 3450lbs with driver goes 11.80's on hot humid days. it's really a nothing motor with a set of heads that are way too big for it too. 230cc pro 1's. it was just thrown together from a combo of tow truck engine and old race car engine.

Originally posted by m71:
12.45 with 3400lbs and a 4.10 gear seems pretty doggy to me, unless it was running at 3000ft elevation or more. :rolleyes: its 9.75 to 1 with small valves and a small Crower solid 244/246 .517/.530 and an RPM intake,thats about it.You always seems to knock my posts too.Whats up with that?
BTW,this is Big Block Dave's old motor..I'm assuming his 67 'velle with a glass hood and Weld draglites weighs 3400 lbs. maybe more.

My vote is for the SBC 400, because I have one with AFR 195 heads. Now it your chance to "be like Mike" graemlins/hurray.gif
SBC 400 and AFR 195 Heads, solid cam. Check Sig: graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by m71:
12.45 with 3400lbs and a 4.10 gear seems pretty doggy to me, unless it was running at 3000ft elevation or more. :rolleyes: its 9.75 to 1 with small valves and a small Crower solid 244/246 .517/.530 and an RPM intake,thats about it.You always seems to knock my posts too.Whats up with that?
BTW,this is Big Block Dave's old motor..I'm assuming his 67 'velle with a glass hood and Weld draglites weighs 3400 lbs. maybe more.
</font>[/QUOTE]just because i don't happen to agree with EVERY one of your posts, (and there's quite a few that i do agree with, but you post alot), doesn't mean anything personal against you. i just don't happen to think that 12.45 with a solid cam and 4.10 gears is all that impressive. if it were a 355, then yes it would be impressive, not unheard of, but pretty impressive. i gave you my reason why i think that. i dunno what else to say......other than i can give a few more examples
for the reason i think that......it seems to me that you don't allow anyone to disagree with you without taking offense, i guess maybe that's why i tend to voice my opinion when i don't agree with ya.....sorry, i'll keep my opinions to myself reguarding your posts..... :confused:

Trust me,I'm not easily offended..its just hard to read thru words typed on the internet.Sometimes I read into things too much I guess.Oh,by the way,the car weighed 3750,not 3400,my mistake graemlins/clonk.gif so maybe that's reasonably impressive performance for a 396 with a solid cam and 4.10's that cost Big Block Dave $1000 :D (and me even less after he finished using it)
And with that in mind...
graemlins/beers.gif

Go with the Buick graemlins/thumbsup.gif But yet am biased
Its worth it to see that look people give ya when you open the hood.

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
Trust me,I'm not easily offended..its just hard to read thru words typed on the internet.Sometimes I read into things too much I guess.Oh,by the way,the car weighed 3750,not 3400,my mistake graemlins/clonk.gif so maybe that's reasonably impressive performance for a 396 with a solid cam and 4.10's that cost Big Block Dave $1000 :D (and me even less after he finished using it)
And with that in mind...
graemlins/beers.gif can't argue with the money vs performance aspect , for sure.

M71,

Not to get into a p..sing contest, but a small block 383 with aftermarket alum heads is not equivalent to a big block with stock iron heads. Put a set of appropriately sized aftermarket alum heads on the 396 big block with a comparable cam {you said flat tappet, but that leaves a lot of unresolved area of discussion}, and compare the numbers.
The other grey area in the comparison, is the defining parameters of the exhaust, trans, rear, tires, suspension, vehicle weight, driver's weight, year and type of vehicle [ aerodynamics, front/rear weight ratio ]. I have had both small blocks and big blocks. A stout small block inculding a stroker is great, but the a comparably set up big block in a properly set u p identical car is still an overall stronger combination.

grn69 ,
I happen to agree with you on COMPARABLE engines. Chevy High performance tried to quantify the differnces back in '98. They built two 408 cu. in. engines 1sbc, 1 bbc. Both used iron aftermarket heads, same comp xe284 cam. carb intake design etc....basically as close as they could make them. The bbc made as much as 50 ft/lb more tq. But we don't race dynos. They bolted each engine into the same camaro using same setup( trans, converter, gearing)The heavier BBC was faster by 3 tenths and 3 mph. This was as close to an apple/apples comparo I have seen. Can an aluminum headed roller cammmed 383 outrun an iron head flat tappet 396?.... of course. Remember...apples/apples

Originally posted by chvl71402:
grn69 ,
I happen to agree with you on COMPARABLE engines. Chevy High performance tried to quantify the differnces back in '98. They built two 408 cu. in. engines 1sbc, 1 bbc. Both used iron aftermarket heads, same comp xe284 cam. carb intake design etc....basically as close as they could make them. The bbc made as much as 50 ft/lb more tq. But we don't race dynos. They bolted each engine into the same camaro using same setup( trans, converter, gearing)The heavier BBC was faster by 3 tenths and 3 mph. This was as close to an apple/apples comparo I have seen. Can an aluminum headed roller cammmed 383 outrun an iron head flat tappet 396?.... of course. Remember...apples/apples i respect your opinion as i know you have alot of experience, but i disagree. i have played around with a few 402's and from my experience i can get better results with a 400sbc. now when you move to a 427 or 454 it's a different ball game, for sure. the combo i mentioned was this: 65 el camino 3450lbs with driver, 383 flat top pistons 64cc Pro 1 230's (probably run better with smaller heads, but that's what he had), air gap intake, xe284 cam, 3.73 gears, super street fighter off the shelf convertor, th350 trans. best 1/4mi early last year was an 11.91 with a 7.71 1/8mi. with some jet tuning it later went 7.63 in the 1/8mi on BFG D/R's 275/60. as far as that magazine test, i don't know what was wrong with that 406, because CHP just built a more mild 406 with vortec heads and it made 70hp more than the one in the sb vs bb shootout. i don't put much faith in dyno numbers from a magazine. you could put factory vortecs on this 383 and it might even pick up some, who knows. i'd love to pit my 406 against that 402 from CHP magazine....if i can't run faster than that 402 did in a lighter car than mine, then i'll sell my 406 and build a 402. :D my motor has the same cam and intake used in the shootout too. i do have better heads than that 406 had though. but according to alot of guys on here, my heads are too big and my headers are too big, so i guess i'd be handicapping myself from the get go. ;)

A buick 455 stage 1?, L-78 396? they would be keepers to the say the least. Assuming plain jane rebuilder motors and a 12 second budget. I would stick with the 400 sbc because it probably is the easiest swap and can meet your goals (with a set of decent heads). The front suspension will not have to be updated for the extra weight of a big block (my $.02) But, all three of these engines can make the power you are looking for, and I wouldn't mind having any of them under my hood. Big blocks make more of a statement and small blocks are better sleeper motors. It really depends on your personel preference.