Hi Harold....

I've read your posts with lots of interest and appreciate your approach to this stuff.

I'm currently using a solid roller in my pump gas 540. It does lots of highway running and street cruising and this summer will bring a lot more including one trip of over 2000 miles!

What I'm wondering is your thoughts on tips to making this sucker live longer or maybe even a solid flat tappet that could approach power levels and live too? I know...I want it all!

The first version of this thing made 732 HP@ 6200 rpm with unported Brodix heads, an old Team G intake and a 262/273 .675/.675 on 112 LSA. The Comp lifters made about 9000 miles before one died.

The new version made 825 hp @ 7400 rpm with the heads ported, a Super Victor intake and a 272/278 .731/.731 on 110 LSA cam.

The lifters were rebuilt and one has already died within maybe 2500 or so miles.

I know idling is the biggest issue with them and I try to keep it minimal. What are your thoughts on the Isky or Crower lifters with oiling to axles? I know the Comp Endurex ones can't handle the spring pressure.

I'd love to keep a roller for obvious reasons, but is there anything out there to help longevity really or do you know of a flat tappet that might live and still make decent power? Whats' the practical limit on flat tappets these days? Do the lifters with laser holes help much?

The car is a '67 Vette, pump gas only and does not use N2O. It has a 5 speed and 3.07 gears.

Thanks,


JIM

Hi Jim,
Not trying to answer for Harold but I do have some suggestions ;)
First, I would recommend the Isky Red Zones as I feel they are the best lifter out there. My second choice would be the Crower with the pin oiling option.
Second, if you are not using a rev kit get one, it keeps the lifters in contact with the cam & reduces the "skipping" that just beats hell out of the cam & lifters.
Third, be sure you are using enough spring to control the valve train. My opinion is not using enough spring on a roller is one of the main causes for roller cam & lifter failure.

BTW, nice numbers graemlins/thumbsup.gif

And now of course a short commercial :D
I do have pretty good prices on the Isky line. If you are interested drop me an email ;)

Thanks Mike...

I'm not running a rev kit, but I do have decent K-motion springs and titanium retainers. They are at 260# on the seat and 660# over the nose. The first cam had 220#/500# on them and lived pretty well as compared to the newest one. Maybe the need for a rev kit has shown itelf with the bigger cam?

What about any of the oiler deals that spray oil directly on the cam/lifters? The small block roundy pounder guys use some pretty elaborate setups to get enough oil to the cams...drilled cam galley's squirting oil on each lobe, drilled blocks to squirt oil etc. Any of that stuff help us street weenie guys?

What do you think is hardest on this stuff... "rate of lift" (like a 245* cam with .750 lift), increased duration overall or increased lift?


JIM

Jim,
Probably the hardest on stuff is p!ss poor cam design :D
I don't feel lift in itself is a problem but very aggresive lobes are going to be harder on parts.
So, I guess for a given lift the more you push the .050, .100, .200 etc. numbers the harder it is to make it controllable for the designer.
I really feel this is where Harold is at his best as he has some pretty aggresive cams that do not beat up good parts.
Of course if you put crap parts on his cam & it tears valve trains up it must be his fault for making the cam to aggresive right :D
Anyway,,,enough rambling, graemlins/boring.gif
I would probably back that spring pressure down a bit for street use. Like 250 seat, 550/600 open.
Just spraying oil at the cam/lifter junction with a roller isn't going to do much. It's the rollers & bearings that need the oil.
A flat tappet is a different deal & what we do is groove the lifter bore with the Comp tool to spray oil directly at the point where the cam starts raising the lifter.
I haven't used the EDM'd lifters but it seems like a good idea
As a side note, I feel these lifters are an excellent place for a high volume oil pump in a small block.
Crap, I'm rambling again :rolleyes:

The popular opinion in my neck of the woods is that a roller cam, SET UP PROPERLY, will endure longer than a flat tappet cam. The obvious critical factor is that roller lifters virtually eliminate friction on the lobes in spite of the fact that higher spring pressure and higher lift
comes with the territory if you want more power. Besides, the car manufacturers are now using roller cam set ups aren't they? To answer your other question as to whether lobe design or higher lift is harder on your valve train is not so easy. They both put a lot of stress on the system.

My 2 cents please.. I have yet to see a manufacturer use a decent solid roller in any Anmerican made V-8!!

Have I missed a modern application??

Yes, the wimpy stock, street hy-rollers last but even they cra-p out every so often b/c my buddy's "Old Man" Olds with the V-6 motor dropped a hy-roller lifter in it...

pdq67

Thanks guys,

The only issue I've had over the years is random failure of the needles/shaft on the lifters. I usually catch it long before the cam is damaged. My general rule is if I have to set the valve more than once in a short period of time, something is dying and it comes apart.

I had a solid Comp street roller live for several years with lots of street miles once. And I had a set of rollers once that I bought used out of a dragster (who knows how many passes)then ran them for over 5 years total on two different cams over .700 lift before one finally died.

But I've never used the oil fed ones so I think that will definitely be my next step.

The lifter bore grooving deal seems like a good thing on flat tappet deals, and I believe the drilled lifters have to be an improvement.

I think if you kept one wound up on the highway and cruised over 2500 rpm you would be OK. I really think the idling is what kills them.

So Mike...you figure less spring pressure but using a rev kit will help? How much pressure on the rev kit?

I'm with you on "rate of lift" and lobe shape has a big effect. Square lobes are pretty tough on stuff. Mine are relatively gentle as compared to real race stuff. OEM Hydraulic roller stuff isn't even in the same league as the stuff we're talking about here. They are very gentle lobes overall for a roller design, yet still improve power over a flat tappet. They have to run 100K at least so lobes aren't too crazy.

Still hoping Harold will slip in here too!


Thanks again...


JIM

Hi Jim,
A little less open spring pressure should be fine. I don't think you need that much open spring pressure on a decent lobe at 7400.
The pressure on the rev kit isn't real critical, whatever they come out at is usually fine. Most are in the 30-40 lb range I think.
Their main purpose in life is to keep the roller in contact with the lobe more so than adding to spring pressure.
They probably help a little but I don't believe they do much of anything in controlling the valve.
I am sure Harold will stop by & give his professional opinion on all this ;)

Let me know when you are ready to upgrade ;)

Jim,

Do like Mike says and put a good set of lifters in there.

I'm in the process of of replacing the roller lifters in my ride. For the last several years I have been running an Isky Street roller. Pretty mild/gental compared to the cam that you are running (248 deg@ .050 / .602"). I was going to do an inspection of the lifters (standard Isky rollers) to make sure they were okay. Decided while I had it apart I would just bite the bullet and install a set of there "Red Zone" lifters.
Now I have heard nothing but good things about there standard lifters as far as durability. I have heard many say they are the best on the market.

When I compared the standards to the Red Zones I was amazed at how much " Beefier they looked. The body down by the roller is much thicker, the axial looks larger in diameter and the roller wheel bigger (wider).

When I purchased them, I talked with Ron Iskenderian and he told me that the roller bearings were about 40% larger than there standard lifters and could withstand 1000# of spring pressure.

Now with my wimpy cam, graemlins/boring.gif :D I probably don't need this much lifter, but it's nice to know that they are there. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

The main selling point for me was the oiling orifices above the bearings. This really helps roller cams live on the street with alot of idling (which I do).

Darren,
If you haven't bought the lifters yet email me.
I can probably save you a few dollars on Isky's stuff ;)

Sorry Mike, I already purchased them from Ron.

Oh well,,,,,glad you picked them though. My opinion is they are the best lifter out there right now.
I think the Crower with the pin oiling option & the "Endurance" Isky like you had are are pretty equal but that Red zone is real nice ;)

When I talked with Ron, he told me the Red Zones and the Crower Severe Duty lifters were very comparible. I have never seen the Crowers, but alot of people talk very highly of them.

The reason I went with the Isky's is they are rebuildable and the Crowers are not.

Mike,

I am interested in the Red Zones.

can you E-mail me at mc71454@hotmail.com

Thanks

Tom

Not to be bashing Comp cam stuff.... but, I had very poor luck with there hi tech roller tappets. I have great luck with there Belt drive, but understand they bought the design by Danny bee....I use Crane 99880 springs and keep them just long enough and I have Jessel shaft rockers on my 555. The NEW Comp lifters lasted 73 runs at that time one roller had failed and galled the cam (looked liked the roller metal was poor and it starting eating the needle bearings). All the others had major pitting on the rollers and in general looked bad. I have the Crane ones now with the horz bar and spring. Got them so I could pull the can with intake on. I have heard that the Crowers are the ones to have. Local chatter. Mike how do the good Crowers and the Isky (ones you recommend) compair? I do not have a huge cam it's a Crane 284 ground on 112lsa with a tad more lift and exh dur. 13R000296 Chase Knight recommended. Special price deal with Crane.... I spin this guy up to about 7800 in the traps. Steel rods 2300 bob. How long would the Isky lifters last? ...........forgot to mention I do not use the oil restrictors/limiters in the cam oil galley.

Tom,
you have mail :D

540 can you post more of your combo I am interested bc of those new numbers :eek: ....
Dane

Jim,

Sorry I haven't been around for the last 36 hours or so, no lap-top for me......
I hae 2 cams I would recommend, one, the Old Reliable, the 310/318R12. This cam is 276/284 at .050, 191/192 at .200, .710/.690 valve lift, and 112 LSA. Both lobes have finished the 24 Hours of Daytona, so they'll go over 2000 miles in 24 hours without breaking a spring. I have had people drive these on the street for several years, without complaint on spring life or parts breakage.
The second cam is more like your current cam. I have a 303/311R12(7° shorter at .020), 275/283 at .050, 193/203 at .200, .731/.731 valve lift, and the same 112 LSA. I do not have any street 'reliability' numbers on it, but it certainly is easy on parts in races. It will definitely make more HP than the 310/318R, particularly on the top-end.
Let me know if either of these 2 grabs your fancy.....

UDHarold

Originally posted by pcs0snq:
Not to be bashing Comp cam stuff.... but, I had very poor luck with there hi tech roller tappets. I have great luck with there Belt drive, but understand they bought the design by Danny bee....I use Crane 99880 springs and keep them just long enough and I have Jessel shaft rockers on my 555. The NEW Comp lifters lasted 73 runs at that time one roller had failed and galled the cam (looked liked the roller metal was poor and it starting eating the needle bearings). All the others had major pitting on the rollers and in general looked bad. I have the Crane ones now with the horz bar and spring. Got them so I could pull the can with intake on. I have heard that the Crowers are the ones to have. Local chatter. Mike how do the good Crowers and the Isky (ones you recommend) compair? I do not have a huge cam it's a Crane 284 ground on 112lsa with a tad more lift and exh dur. 13R000296 Chase Knight recommended. Special price deal with Crane.... I spin this guy up to about 7800 in the traps. Steel rods 2300 bob. How long would the Isky lifters last? ...........forgot to mention I do not use the oil restrictors/limiters in the cam oil galley. I think the Isky Red Zones & Crower severe duty with the pin oiling option are the best lifters out there.
I do prefer the Isky over the Crower as the pin oiling is standard & they are rebuildable.
With a rev kit you should have no problems going the season as I have a trans am customer that switched to them last year from Cranes & has aboout doubled his life between rebuilds. This is in an engine that routinely sees 8800 quite a few times during each race with springs in the 250/600 range.
I am doing a new smaller engine for him now that will be seeing 9300 RPM so we are going to go to the .904 lifter as the roller is bigger.
BTW,, good thinking on not using restrictors graemlins/thumbsup.gif

If you need pricing email me, we have pretty fair pricing on them ;)

UDHAROLD, What are your thoughts on this cam for a 496 big block with unported 842 high perf heads. 11to1 comp, +250 long rod, factory dualplane intake and a 750hp carb.

Cam I bought:

286/295R108
260/268 at .050
173/176 at .200
639/588 valve lift and 108 LSA

Is this to big? To small?

Thanks Harold...

Looking at the two cams you mentioned, the first one is actually closest overall to mine when I look at adv/.050/.200 etc. But even it is MORE aggressive than the one I have now! Mine is only at 185/190*@.200.

As far as I know, the cam is still in good shape, but I'll be opening it up soon for it's "winter check up" and a new cam could always be in the new plans!

I've been using Engle for the last few years primarily for the same reason everyone here is sticking with you. Great response and help! When I started calling all the big cam companies I got burned out very quickly with most of the counter help. If it wasn't for a 350 with a Q-jet they were lost! I remember thinking..."I know you have some smart people there...please let me talk to one of them!" But of course I didn't actually tell them that! When I called Engle, within a few minutes the guy put me on the phone with Mark Engle since I was "talking over his head". At least he knew when to pass on a customer to someone else. Mark spent a lot of time working with me on combo of lobes that would live and so far they have been great.

But just like everyone else, I'm always looking for more! I would bet that your "faster" lobes spread back out to 112 would still maintain similar manners of what I have now. And as Mike has mentioned, cam shape has EVERYTHING to do with this stuff, and you have a great rep in that area as well as making power! I'm sorry I didn't call you when I was working on this stuff originally, but I think I had Ultradyne in my head as building killer Super Stocker stuff for class racing and not so much all this other stuff. Sorry! We might have been together a long time ago!

Mike, I'll be contacting you for lifters soon!

Harold,let me see what it looks like when I open it. For sure if it needs one, I'll be calling you to work out the exact combo!

Doggy....

It's a Merlin II block with an Eagle crank and .250 SCAT rods. It has SRP pistons with an actual 11.06 final compression ratio. The heads are Brodix 2Xtras with 2.30/1.88's that have been professionally ported. They spent lots of time on bench developing the ports and valve job angles. Amazing what little things do. They are angle milled to 112 cc. The intake is an Edelbrock Super Victor that was home ported by me. The cam is an Engle 272/278 .731/.731 0n 110 LSA.
Carb is a homebuilt/modified 9375 1050cfm Dominator.
It made Peak TQ-662ft lbs@5400 rpm and peak hp- 825.1@7400 rpm. It was only dropping 4-6 ft lbs per 100 rpm at that point but I was starting to chicken out on how high I wanted to rev this street weenie motor! I think we could have kept playing with it to get a little more, but I was happy there. This was done with a 1" open spacer and no vacuum pump (just breathers).

I had some oil pressure issues at high rpm once I got it running in car this time around that had never been noticed before. I ended up using a stepped style Milodon race pan to replace the Moroso street pan. Maybe I picked up a few Hp there too!

Any other questions,,,,let me know!


JIM

Mr. Horsepower,


Those are probably bogus specs. The .050 numbers are nowhere close to the seat and .200 numbers, unless the manufacturer is rating the cams extremely high, like at .028" ramp height.
I have 2 intake lobes for comparison:
UR81 287@.020 253(255 in BBC) @.050, 172° @ .200, .3883 lobe lift, .660 valve lift.
UR9 286@.020 253(Again, 255 in BBC) @ .050,
173 @ .200 .4033 lobe lift, .685" valve lift.
The exhaust numbers are similar.
Check it out further and let me know.
I've reached my 'computer limit' for tonight...

UDHarold

UDHAROLD, Thanks for the reply. The numbers are at .020.

Comp lobes:
IN 6255 ( 286/260-173 .376 lobe)
EX 6219 ( 295/268-176 .345 lobe)

I have been hearing so much about your (310/318r12) that i'm not sure I have the right cam for my combo.

454 +.060
4.25 stroke
6.385 rod (+250)
11to1 comp
840 steel closed chamberd heads. (pocket ported)
Factory dual plane intake
750hp DP carb

Street and strip driven 50/50

4-speed
current 4.10 gears ( might go 3.55 )

Thanks ;)

Thanks 540 I am interested in your torque curve. How was the low end torque like the 2000-4000 range? My 540 combo is 600-700 there and I doing a six speed swap so loosing some low end might not be bad. I am running a 10.9-1 merlin II block 305 grumpy jenkins alumiinum heads that have been ported polished and a rpm air gap with a demon 750. Cam is a small lunati grind my builder picked with .602 lift and something around 230 duration. Thanks again Dane

Harold out of curiosity what kind of $ is the 303?
$300?

Doggy...

This combination is "soggier" at low speeds than the first combination I built. But that is a relative term. It will still get sideways in every gear! The first one made 678 ft lbs@4800. I didn't dyno test below 4000 rpm but it never dropped below 600 ft lbs at that point. Chassis dyno testing showed 615 RWHP @ 6200 rpm or so with all accessories operating. This is due to several factors. Main thing is cam and intake changes. The first one used an old Team G intake (still had the bolt holes above intake ports). This is a good intake, but it is relatively small and definitely small for a 540. But it was the only thing that would fit under my hood. I found it was seriously running out of air above 6400 or so rpm. It peaked HP in the 6000-6200 range at 732 HP and then rapidly dropped off after 6500 and was down to 591 HP by 7000 rpm. I never did any carb spacer testing that time around which might have helped some. I was also using a 262/273 on 112 LSA solid roller which is a good bit milder than what I have now.

Interestingly, Engle recommended that I keep that cam in place and see what head porting and intake alone would do since it was such a great driving street cam. Of course I just couldn't do that!

The first year or so I had it running I found the midrange TQ to be in the "stupid" range. Doing anything on street tires was useless even from a 70+ mph roll. It would literally start spinning when you nailed it at 70 and you were actually having to "drive" it past 100 mph while it was still spinning. Quite a handful. You had to really roll gently into the throttle. I can imagine yours with the smaller heads, cam and dual plane must be awful similar if not even crazier!

So, this time around I intentionally picked parts to move the power band upwards and kill off some midrange. Compared to the old 4800 rpm peak TQ, it's only down 25-30 ft lbs., but at 6500 it's up over 100 ft lbs! I can tell you the car is MUCH more driveable under power and pulls like crazy up top. My only issue is that my gearing is still based on the old combo and I'm just getting into 4th gear right before the finish line. Gotta work on that some. I only have 3.07 gears with a 5 speed!

The Super Victor is about the largest cast intake out there and for sure kills off low end some, especially compared to your dual plane. But what I like about this dude is that at 7000 rpm it is up over 230+ HP over the first combo. That comes from improving the airflow capabilities. It makes about 10 ftlbs less at peak, and peak is 600 rpm or so higher, but I'll trade that anyday for a couple hundred HP more up where I can actually put it down to the track!

You might try some header testing. I've tried 2", 2-1/8" and 2-1/4". I can tell you that up to 6400-6500 the 2" ones were up significantly over 2-1/4" ones. Like 68 ft lbs at 4700!! Right at 6500 they started going the other way and were down right at 36 ft lbs at 7200. Thats like 50 HP! So depending on where you are planning to rev it to and what your rpm drops are between gears, you might try them out! Right now I'm using the 2" ones in the car but will be installing 2-1/8" ones over the winter.

Good luck!

JIM

Mr Horsepower,

Sorry about the mix-up. In your original post, you had typed 286/295R10, and I assumed it was a roller. Now the specs make more sense. You have a tite-lash solid cam from Comp, one that they call their 'Most Aggressive' solid lifter lobes. The .200 numbers were making no sense for the .050s, until you realize it is a .842 solid, not a roller.
As far as the 310/318R12, it is one of the most popular 540 street/strip cams I make. It is 'dead-nuts' reliable, capable of 2000 miles in 24 hours with no broken valve springs, or several years of running on one set of springs---I have had reports of looong-time use of one set of springs in 9- and 10-sec cars.
Lunati's part number is 502B3LUN for that cam on a 108 LSA, you would have to specify you want it on 112 LSA. They grind them 4° advanced, and they work just fine there.

UDHarold

540
Imho since you have rebuilt this motor twice and spent plenty of money and want to have the best roller lifter on the market Bar none.Buy a set of Jesel lifters.When the big boys want the best thats where they go,R&M,WJ,Dodge Motorsports,etc etc.These lifters have been in the winning Dodge vipers in the 24hours of sebring,500 mile offshore,race boats,ProStocks,Arca and Nascar trucks.These are not Cheap,But they are the best. Good Luck

Thanks, but I don't feel quite that rich! If I did my little street weenie motor would have lots of better parts!

The last time I saw the price on the "base" set used in a friends twin turbo 6 second Camaro they were in the $1800 range! Then the "real good ones" were in the $3000 range! Out of my league!

I keep hoping the Shubeck style stuff will get to a point where you can "drop them in" without major block work. The concept looks good if he'll make it for regular stuff at a reasonable price.

And just so I'm clear, other than roller lifters dying every once in awhile, the only reason I've had it apart was to change the combo. Nothing broke so far. The first set went about 9000 miles, but the rebuilt ones didn't last as long.

JIM

Originally posted by 1968 hot rod:
540
Imho since you have rebuilt this motor twice and spent plenty of money and want to have the best roller lifter on the market Bar none.Buy a set of Jesel lifters.When the big boys want the best thats where they go,R&M,WJ,Dodge Motorsports,etc etc.These lifters have been in the winning Dodge vipers in the 24hours of sebring,500 mile offshore,race boats,ProStocks,Arca and Nascar trucks.These are not Cheap,But they are the best. Good Luck =
Gotta agree 100% about the quality but you are talking about Approx $560 jobber for Red Zones vs $2000+ for jesels not to mention a wee bit of work to put them in :eek:
Of course if you happen to have :D an uncle named Trump,,,,,,, :D

Hey Jim, you are busted pal. Caught you over here on the other side. I'm tellin' everyone over at CF. smile.gif Seriously though, great thread here. I would be interested though to hear an answer to a question in your original post about the latest in flat tappets and if you can approach close to your level of horsepower with one. Also curious on the Mushroom lifter cams and the Shubeck stuff as well. Bill. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Mike
Jesel makes a drop in lifter they might run about 1700 or so.The expensive ones are the dog bones.I wonder how much it cost for 540 to repair his engine twice after buying a set of the less expensive lifters.Lifters are the most stressed part in a engine.As 540 has already found out this twice smile.gif

Originally posted by 1968 hot rod:
Mike
Jesel makes a drop in lifter they might run about 1700 or so.The expensive ones are the dog bones.I wonder how much it cost for 540 to repair his engine twice after buying a set of the less expensive lifters.Lifters are the most stressed part in a engine.As 540 has already found out this twice smile.gif =
Me thinks you need to reread Jim's post ;)
I believe he said he hasn't hurt any parts except the lifters.
Again, I agree Jesel is arguably the best lifter out there but for $1700 you can buy 3 sets of Isky Red Zones of which we have had zero failures & some are in some fairly serious engines.
Or you could buy two set & cycle them each season / year (we have a few customers that do this) & be way ahead
I also do not think you will see any apreciable difference in lifter life in these type of applications over the Isky Red Zones or Severe Duty Crowers with the oiling option with Jesels.
Now if we are referring to an engine with an inch + of valve lift & over 1000lbs of spring pressure,,,,,,,,,,,
In any event,, I tend to think the Jesel is not really a viable choice given what we are talking about here ;)

Mike,
What do you feed the wolves,or do they take care of that themselves :D
.731 lift and a 2000 mile trip is pretty intense some books,usually when a lifter goes it takes out the camshaft and whatever else gets scored up by the debris.But its his money.
Happy New year everyone!!!! graemlins/beers.gif

They each get a hind quarter of raw chicken daily along with hi protien dog food & they tend to eat a bit,,,,we go through about 120#'s chicken & 120#'s of dog food a month :eek:

Here is Nikolos enjoying his Thanksgiving Turkey

http://wsm.ezsitedesigner.com/share/scrapbook/19/190264/Nikolos_Eating_His_Thanksgiving_Turkey.jpg

Gotta raise my shop rates :D

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL graemlins/thumbsup.gif

68 Hot Rod...

I appreciate your take on all this. I do believe the lightweight Jesels are the strongest thing out there. No doubt..

But I would seriously have my doubts that they would do any better overall in a street type application. If you are running 3000-4000+ rpm all the time or maybe 7000+ I think the oiling situation is taken care of regardless of lifters. There is enough oil splash to take care of them. They have better metal I'm sure that can withstand the ungodly spring pressure and fast ramps, but if they starve for oil at low speeds, they're toast too. Then when you get into the aluminum body stuff, the increased clearance required with them beats up the lifter bores. So here we go installing bushings and replacing them on a regular basis.

I think we're talking about two different worlds regardless of cost. Lots of race parts are great overkill on the street and last forever. Others are fragile when used in an environment they aren't designed for. Race type solid roller cams are in that league. They are designed to run less than a minute at a time including burnout, race and driving back to the pits. Or maybe run all day at high rpm with lots of oil on them.

We have a few choices. Run them and make it a "trailer baby" that you call a street car. Or run them and develop a maintenance program. The std is to replace/rebuild the lifters once a year like Mike said. The improved Isky or Crower ones apparently seem to do much better with direct oil feed to them.

Or we can use street roller cams with mild lobes that last a longer time and give up some power.

Or we can use flat tappets and give up more power. Especially if we use one that is "mild" enough to live for a while too.

I keep hoping that technology will develop something that will allow us to have the best of both.

And so far over the last few year I've had the cost of the initial set of lifters..maybe $280 or so that went 9000 miles and then the cost of Comp rebuilding them for $150 or so where one of them died after 2000 miles or so. Luckily no cam or block damage, but I understand what you are saying. I've had friends tear up blocks when they went too far. But I'm just not sure spending 2K on those lifters would solve the street longevity issue. I don't think they are designed for that purpose. They are designed to be lighweight and tough enough to handle mega loads and high rpm. No guarantee on low speed stuff. I still think the Shubeck type deal is the future for this type stuff once it's more common.

So back to the original question...anyone know anyone running a flat tappet cam in a 540 type pump gas deal that could approach 800 hp/7000+ rpm and still live for awhile? Would longevity be any better with a cam that stout? I'm doubting it....


JIM

Jim,
Sorry about wandering off with Wolf stuff on your post ;)

I agree with you on the flat tappet issue
I think flat tappet cams can be made to live at 7000+ & make good power but not the power of a roller.
I also think even if you could get a flat tappet lobe that makes the power your are making with your combo it isn't going to live very long.
First off you just cannot open a valve with a flat tappet at the rate you can with a roller.
Before someone brings it up, I will,,,a roller is actually slower to .050-.100 but from there on it is in a different league ;)
Just my uneducated opinions :D

HAPPY NEW YEAR graemlins/thumbsup.gif

All jesel lifters pressure feed the needle rollers ( and have been for 7 or 8 years)which is most important at idle.The lifter bodys are steel and are coated.The guts are aluminum so to speak.My set came out of a 500 mile offshore race boat(the kind with 2 BBC motors in them)they look new,no scores in the body lifter roller's look new.I was very surprised at how good they looked.

Mike
That wolf don't look too happy with you in the pic. :D
540 like I said its your money,sometimes street applications are harder on parts than racing.The drop in lifters require no brass bushings.Their record speaks for themselves all you have to do is call 901-732-3154 and ask your questions.Good Luck and Happy New Year

Thanks.. I didn't realize they all had pressure fed axles. Sounds good.

Just out of curiosity....what did you have to pay for a used set if you don't mind? Always looking for options.

How much street use does yours get? How much cam and spring? I was speaking with another guy and we both were looking for some "real world" info on some success stories of folks putting lots of street miles on this stuff.

10.0's at 131 is stout! Wish I could get those 60's!


JIM

Anybody ever check out Schbeck's round tip solid lifters???

I think you may just have found a lifter that will produce the power of a solid competition roller but should not have the hassle of the suckers!!

Should be like $1200 or maybe a little more for a full kit ready to go... Or at least when I asked them if they would make a CC 288 Street solid roller type grind that I could run on the street!!

Please check them out!!!

pdq67

Hey Mike... Nikolos seems to be grinning pretty good at the picture taker. :D Great looking pet! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jim,

In response to your question about 800 HP solid lifter cams in 540s......
It can be done, but it would require a 11:1 minimum, probably 12.5:1, CR and a nice size carb. A typical cam might be something like my 320/328F12, or F14..... 286/294 at .050, .660"/.660" valve lift, and 112-114 LSA.
A cam like this gets NO CLOSER to the edge of the tappet, and actually has lower acceleration rates than my 276/284F10. It will live just as long as the 276/284F10 will live, ie--Years...
You'd better have EFI to get this one to behave at very low RPMs, I doubt if it will idle any lower than 1500.....
What it will do is come very close, or pass, your 800 BHP at 7000 request.
Several years ago I did a study for an Offshore boat company, interested in offering a 1000 BHP engine, N/A, with 400-hour reliability.
The best combination was a 572 cid (4.500X4.500) BBC with 6.635 rods and a SEFI system. Previous tests on SBCs running at the 24 Hours of Daytona showed us (the engine builder doing the dyno tests and me....) that we could trade duration for torque with the proper manifold and injection timing. My SB288/296R6 picked up 50 ftlbs of torque at 5200, and 80 ftlbs of torque at 4400, with a Bosch EFI and the McKay 2.3" IR injection manifold, timing injection to occur IMMEDIATELY after EVC. The peak power was identical to a 750 Holley/Victor Jr, our mule combo.
The next time we ran at Daytona(the previous year, the team had taken 6th overall, a 355 March sponsored by Red Lobster..), we had a 388(I believe) running a 318/318R8, 282/282 at .050, .609/.609 valve lift, 108 LSA. We had about 625 BHP at 7500, which turned out to be about 75 more than the driver could handle. We had over 520 ftlbs torque at 5200. He demolished the car after 4 hours, the previous year with only 550 BHP he had finished 6th overall.......
Properly-done SEFI allows you to run a larger cam than usual for the mid-range torque you'll have.
The boat engine was going to use a 330° intake, I forgot what exhaust, only .725 gross lift, .700 net, and 114 LSA. The .050 duration was 288/296, with very low positive acceleration, and very low-rate springs to boot. The springs had to last a minimum of 1.5 million cycles and keep sufficient spring pressure.
The boat company didn't want to pay for the SEFI, which around 1996 was very, very, expensive...
Enough war stories.... To get 800 BHP out of a 540 BBC will require a BIG solid lifter cam....

UDHarold

Oooops,

Forgot how to count....

The springs had to last over 50 million cycles...

UDHarold

I found a dyno sheet for a 540 I built about 5 years ago. At the time it was 11.5:1. It was for drag racing so I made the pulls using modified Holley 1050 with small Enderly belt drive pump and methanol. Wish I had made a pull or two on gas. This one had a Crane 274 roller. No big deal; just figured I'd share a similar engine. Heads where Dart CNC Ported (chesssy pocket port) 320's, Dito Dart 4500 intake, heavy ass Steel + 250 rods. It ran 7.60's on hp
540 dyno (http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/c/pcs0snq/540cbb%20dyno%20results1.gif)

Don't know exactly how much the alcohol added on a relatively low compression deal like that, but that looks like a heck of a sweet little motor!

That's pretty impressive stuff...are those 335cc CNC heads or are they just a 320 with a little cleanup. Either way, they hang in there pretty well. Goes to show it doesn't take a huge cam when you have decent airflow. That R274 is about as ancient as you can get too, but it always seems to work!

JIM

Thanks Jim, Used methanol cause it was dirt cheap at the time ($65/55gal) and it's great when your going rounds...Heads Dart 320 S/R 961338 Bought back in 1996 when all they had was 320's and 360's. Got them from Shafiroff sp back when I knew someone there... The CNC was just the chambers the port where just gasket matched but all at DART by DART. I did the valve job and reshaped the intake just a tad... I can't imagine the smile you have with a 540 in a street car. graemlins/hurray.gif Are you still running OEM rear stuff? I'll bet it just kills the tires anytime you nail it... graemlins/beers.gif

Yeah it's a lot of fun.

I broke lots of stuff back there with the 427 and the 540 both. Just a lot quicker with the 540! In fact it is just now getting to the point where I can make a few passes without scattering stuff. Got lots of sporting to do!

It's still an IRS deal, but it's all custom. It's based on a Hemi Dana 60 center section that has been made into what looks like a big Vette differential. It uses 35 spline inner axles, 1480 series truck u-joints, 3.5 x.134 wall halfshafts and 31 spline outer stub axles. It took me awhile to get it all engineered/figured out/built and installed..but it's working. Actually there were some folks doing the same thing back in the 70's. Lingenfelter, Agaman, Cocuzza etc running Super Stock stuff. It's pretty cool because unless you point it out, most folks, even Vette guys don't notice what it really is. Sneaky stuff.....

Just a basic 'lil 'ole mid year Vette convertible...folks don't expect you to be playing with them! Plus it's fun to go Viper hunting!!


JIM

Has this car been run yet? or did I miss something?!
Any time slips to post?

Yeah, it's been run, but I ain't bragging yet! It's not that fast yet! So far it's been to the track twice since I got the rear end squared away.

Previously it ran 11.20's@123+ with an oval port 427 on pump gas through the mufflers. Had to walk it out of the hole at 1500 rpm or so to try not to break Vette axles.

A couple of trips with the 540 never got past the starting line due to axle issues.

Since then I went once to an IHRA track hoping they would be a little more lenient on the "no roll cage" issue. Got one easy pass in, 10.84@129.5 then sent home!

Next trip was to a non-NHRA or IHRA sanctioned track during the "Fastest Street Vette in TX" shootout. Had no idea what to expect, no changes made. Primarily a race for late model Corvette "tuners" to show off their talents. Quite a few sponsored cars and a few hired drivers. Lots of compression and race gas, carbon fiber, lightweight stuff. But I took my old tech Vette with just a lot of sloppy cubes on pump gas to try and get a few runs in.

I made a few passes trying different launch techniques etc with varying results. Biggest issue was the newly installed Crane points conversion kit was hitting it's built in rev limiter before the shift light came on regardless of where I set it. I know shift light is OK, but I couldn't get it to let me rev. Should have left the points in..they could pull 7500 when fresh!

Anyway, I ended up #1 qualifier in the naturally aspirated class. The best I got all day was a 10.65@132. Still not good since I was having to shift at 6500 rpm which is almost 1000 rpm (and 75-90 hp) below peak hp.

The best part was I ended up winning the event running 10.60-10.70's all day, which was enough to win. Even better was when a buddy broke his car, we put his on my trailer and drove mine the 140 miles back to his house waving to some of the folks towing theirs home in enclosed trailers that we had beat!

So, it's not that fast yet, still a long way to go, but we're getting there. The slicks were bought used from a 5.0 racer when he needed new ones and I've used them for 6 years...so I guess it's time to get new ones. I'll take care of the rev limiter so I can actually use the engine correctly and then let her fly!

It weighs 3600 lbs, has 3.07 gears, 5 speed trans, and runs pure pump gas. It has full size front tires, etc. Just a nice weekend cruiser that my wife can and does drive. The goal is to run a 9.99 in pure street trim. With only a few runs on it and lots of things to try, I think we'll be OK.


JIM

Jim won't brag, so I will for him. His RT in the final round was a .504

We did a couple of 540 build ups for some drag racers. Some interest was a build up of a 540ci pump gas (10.5to1) engine for a dragster. Made over 800hp and run 7.80 all day. ( 4.5 bore, 4.25 stroke, +400 rods, Brodix -2 heads home ported, victor jr, 1050 dom carb) cam was a shelf roller 278/282 714/680 r110. We later did the engine over winter with 14-1 comp and nothing else and only picked up .10 to a 7.70.

Check out my web site for pics.

My 2 cents on the BBC 540's. 4.500 bore has an amazing negative effect on performance because of valve shrouding. Just going 60 more make a BIG difference. Bracket cars just keep getting faster and a 555 is pretty common around here. I can't find the dyno sheets on this one (if I do I'll post it here), but it made an honest corrected 1000 on HP and made a with Mr Frosty (just to see) 1200. 1700cfm Methanol injected. 14.5:1 mild ported DART 360's. Flow was 384@.70 lift but velocity was special. Epoxy tricks etc... graemlins/boring.gif Never spent any time super tuning, as the spray gets the job done. This one still has a small cam a custom grind by Crane Chase Knight. 278/286@50 .714/714 on 112 lsa. Intake @31BTDC @ 50. I tried a bigger cam: 284 and 286 with huge lift but the engine could not use it so went make to the kinder more gentle grind. The springs thanked me. lol 565 will be the next one for sure. Has anyone tried a GM 572 build? Not sure if they are being sold yet??? GM shot there self in the foot when they stopped making the LS-7 crate motor and open the door for DART and Bill Mitchell, Inc. They make nice stuff for sure but it's not the General. I read that they will sell a 12+:1 version of the 572 as a crate engine. graemlins/hurray.gif To be competitive, the price will have to be way less than $15k. Maybe some of you can start a post on the 572 as some of us are kind of in the dark... :confused: funny that it does not show up here: The General Crate site (http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/gmgoodwrenchjsp/perfparts/partlist.jsp?section=ce&cat=9274)

Originally posted by 540Hotrod:

Even better was when a buddy broke his car, we put his on my trailer and drove mine the 140 miles back to his house waving to some of the folks towing theirs home in enclosed trailers that we had beat!

JIM You're ****ting me! That's priceless man! graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by 540Hotrod:
The best part was I ended up winning the event running 10.60-10.70's all day, which was enough to win. Even better was when a buddy broke his car, we put his on my trailer and drove mine the 140 miles back to his house waving to some of the folks towing theirs home in enclosed trailers that we had beat! JIM Same deal here for us graemlins/thumbsup.gif . We drive to the track change out the radials for slicks race all night change back and drive home smile.gif
So far 10.19@131 is our best.
People are amazed to see this car drive in and run as hard as it does. 10-1 motor with a hyd roller cam and 3.73 gears!!

Yeah...normally we drive to the track, but Vette's ain't got much room for carrying slicks and stuff! If we're going local it's not that big of a deal...you can always use someone elses car to carry stuff. But so far, both times I've taken it recently have been to tracks over 200 miles away one way. That's a LONG flatbed ride home if something scatters!

But the cool factor of something that drives in is just too much!

You can bet when I finally find that 9.99 on pump gas and all motor..it will drive itself home that night regardless of where I am!


JIM