What brand/model do you guys recommend? It will see street driving and plenty of track time.

Lee

If it will see street driving, I wouldn't recommend a solid roller. WAY too many cases of lifter failure. The low-RPM stuff and corresponding lower amounts of oil just seems to eat them up.

If you are dead set on running SR's on a street motor, the only options I would consider are the Isky Red Zones as a first pick and then Crower's with the HIPPO (hi pressure pin oiling) option as a second pick.

Either should give a good life, but don't be surprised if/when you eat a roller. I would pull the lifters for inspection every 5000 miles regardless of brand. A pain in the butt, yes, but much cheaper than freshening a motor when a lifter lets go.

The other important point for a street motor is not to get too crazy with the profiles and spring pressures; excess amounts of either will increase the loads on the lifters and increase your chances of failure.

Use quality lifters, say sane on the spring pressures, ramp rates, and total lift and they should live a long life.

Troy

Isky Red Zones graemlins/thumbsup.gif

If you email me I can probably save you a few dollars on them ;)

I have used the Isky Roller lifters on street motors with 40,00 miles on them now with no problems. I have not tried the Red Zone lifter yet, it must be an improved design of the standard ones. I have always recommended the Isky roller lifters no mater what cam, and they have always held up and I have seen quite a few people break a lifter and replace them with a set of Isky's and thier problems go away. If you stay in the .600" to .625" lift range you won't have any problems on the street.

You wont go wrong with a set of Isky Red Zones! graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif graemlins/hurray.gif

I trust Wolfy and now have two sets, for two blocks, of standard diameter + .325 tall Red Zones. Real nice lifters. It is essential to check which block you have in order to get the right lifter. The older blocks use shorter lifters. If it were to be in a street car i'd use a flat tappet with a EDM small oiling hole. This is much cheaper than a roller and the performance is nearly identical with the correct cam, at least it was on my son's car.

Originally posted by Harold Sutton:
I trust Wolfy and now have two sets, for two blocks, of standard diameter + .325 tall Red Zones. Real nice lifters. It is essential to check which block you have in order to get the right lifter. The older blocks use shorter lifters. If it were to be in a street car i'd use a flat tappet with a EDM small oiling hole. This is much cheaper than a roller and the performance is nearly identical with the correct cam, at least it was on my son's car. =
Thanks for the kind words Harold.
Glad I could help graemlins/beers.gif

Thanks everyone, the car only sees maybe 150 miles a year and the rest of the time it's at the strip. I've already bought the cam, lifters and springs from comp cams but the lifters are cut aways and requires longer push rods. It ticks me off they didnt tell me that when I purchased them! The cams not too aggressive, it's 262/270 @.050, .756/.756, 112 lobe sep. I need to order the lifters ASAP so they need to be in stock at summit.

Summit has crane 13552-16 for $349 yet jegs show $555 for them, who is right and are they good enough for the job? They also have the crower 66292-16 for $509. These are for the late model block with raised lifter bores.

Thanks,

Lee

why a 112 LSA? and unless you're turning 7500+ rpms through the traps, and have a loose 8" converter, i think thats too much duration.

Lee
If it were between those two lifter choices it would be the Crower with the HPPO option hands down but my choice is the Isky's & they come standard with hi pressure oiling oiling.

Again, if you email me at the below link in my sig. I can get you the Isky's at a pretty fair price & in a timely fashion ;)

Originally posted by Motor Martyr:
why a 112 LSA? and unless you're turning 7500+ rpms through the traps, and have a loose 8" converter, i think thats too much duration. Two reasons, bleed off a little torque on the launch (I have a 700R4 and traction problems) and give me a little more vacuum. The power range of the cam is 3500 to 6800 with the 502. Right now with hydraulic rollers I shift at 6300RPM. I'm not sure where your getting +7500RPM, even DD2000 gives me peak HP at 6000RPM with this cam.

Also, a friend has a stroked 454 (496 or so?) and has ran 3 cams, 1 smaller, the same and one bigger. The bigger one performed better at the track. 3 Cam companies wanted me to get in the 270/275 range but I decided not to because of the street time it will see. The cam I have now is 245/254 and it's too small. Also, our density altitude is around 7000 for most our racing season which allows more cam and timing to make it up..

Lee

Desktop dyno, dont get me started on Desktop dyno.

I dont know the characteristics of your friends motor, but if your motor is running on Pump gas, then it has around 10:1-11:1 compression, and you're planning to turn 7000+ RPMs, then that cam is on the large side, if not too big.

I'd question first who exactly you're talking at these cam companies, most have a "tech line" and their recommendations are souly based on CID and Compression.
While both are taken into consideration, RPM is my biggest consideration. There are 100 other considerations, but that is very important.

Fix the traction problems with suspension tuning, not by killing torque with things like a Wide LSA, and too much duration.

Have you considered working for a cam company? What would be your recomendation? How about converters? I have a yank SS3800, how does that work out in my combination?

Lee

I think the profile is mroe aggressive than I would use in a a "street" motor but with only 150 miles per year on the street, it's really not a street motor...

That profile ina 10-1 502 would not be a 7000 rpm cam, probably a ~6500rpm cam, give or take a little.

The wider LSA makes for an easier to tune, less radical idle, more pump gas friendly, better vacuum setup. It does however give up some peak power. But also a somewhat broader curve. It goes both ways...

DD2000,
Many people believe the output figures it states with inaccurate (at best) input. However I have seen a couple of combos that dyno'd almost to the number what DD2000 stated on an actual engine dyno. However all the head flow figures, etc.. were input exactly as they were flowed..
Good accurate info going in = somewhat accurate info coming out IMO..
I use Engine Analyzer but really only to graph power curves, not for the numbers. Really too many variables once a motor is in the car to use all the "dyno" numbers..

CID+Comp.+intended rpm range is what you have to look at. Not just rpm range...or any other single factor.

A 10-1 502 will use ALOT more cam than a 10-1 383 for the same rpm range.

Just guessing I'd say about 20-25 degrees more duration for the additional cubes... to maintain the same rpm range.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a solid roller up in the durations we're speaking of will have less advertised duration for a given .050 duration than a comparable solid flat tappet.
So you can usually get away with slightly more @.050 on a solid roller and not lose so much vacuum, idle quality, etc.

On the same note,
You can also get away with less .050 duration because the more aggressive profile will yield more .200 duration and overall lift and still yield equal or greater power with a better idle and the same or more rpm capability.

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
Have you considered working for a cam company? What would be your recomendation? How about converters? I have a yank SS3800, how does that work out in my combination?

Lee I dont want to work on a Techline, i work for an engine builder and go to school.
My recommendation depends on exactly what you have.
What are the specs, down to the wire, including predicted trap RPMs, gearing, tires, ect.

Isky cams has roller lifters on sale at web,check out http://www.iskycams.com/index.html
very nice price graemlins/hurray.gif

Originally posted by PETE466:
Isky cams has roller lifters on sale at web,check out http://www.iskycams.com/index.html
very nice price graemlins/hurray.gif Pete,
Those are not the Red Zones with the pin oiling. ;)
The Red Zones are 272-96-RH & 372-96-RH for a rat

Pete - do the Isky lifters use standard length push rods or do the require longer ones because of the cutaway body?

Lee

Hey Wolfplace,
I called to isky techline and they told me that 272-96 redzones are intended to higer rpm(+9000rpm) then 202-96`s(7500rpm) and 272 has bigger bearing.According to them both have pin oiling :rolleyes:
70_CHEVELLE
Yes I believe they use standard lenght pushrods,

Pete

Originally posted by PETE466:
Hey Wolfplace,
I called to isky techline and they told me that 272-96 redzones are intended to higer rpm(+9000rpm) then 202-96`s(7500rpm) and 272 has bigger bearing.According to them both have pin oiling :rolleyes:
70_CHEVELLE
Yes I believe they use standard lenght pushrods,

Pete Pete,
Hi again :D
Who did you talk too at Isky?
I am almost positive that the 202's do not have the same oiling system as the Red Zones.
I believe they have "pin oiling" that squirts oil down the sides of the roller but pretty sure they don't have the same "three point oiling system" which sprays pressurized oil directly at the needles.
As far as I know only the Red Zones & the Crowers with the HPPO option have this.

Regardless, it is an excellent lifter but I prefer not to use it in a street environment unless I am wrong about the oiling system which I will check tomorrow.

BTW, I can sell the lifters for that same price with free shipping during the sale smile.gif

I believe your right Wolfy as i too looked up the different Isky lifters and the difference in price leads me to think there is no pressurized roller oiling in the cheaper "on sale standard lifter". The newer "Red Zones" are very nice and i think the're worth the difference. Remember people, "The satisfaction of good quality is remembered long after a cheap price is forgotten".

i used a solid flat tappet cam in my 454 with a 112LSA, at first i wanted to use the wider LSA for better vacuum for my power brakes, but now that i am using a hydroboost that is not concern. i believe it will work well for me; creating a smoother idle which is nice for a streetable car and a peakier torque(reaching max torque at a higher RPM) which will help traction. My car is going to be setup for all around handling, so tuning for straight line traction isn't a priority for me. So a motor with a little less torque down low for me is a plus, but i agree; on a car for max effort on the track it is backwards to lose torque, rather than fix the suspension. But if you must, try not to "lose" torque just shift the torque peak/curve higher in the rpm band.

Originally posted by cody:
i used a solid flat tappet cam in my 454 with a 112, at first i wanted to use the wider LSA for better vacuum for my brakes, but now that i am using a hydroboost that is not concern. i believe it will work well for me; creating a smoother idle and a peakier torque which will help traction. My car is going to be setup for all around handling, so tuning for straight line traction isn't a priority for me so a motor with a little less torque down low for me is a plus, but i agree on a car for max effort on the track it is backwards to lose torque, rather than fix suspension. But if you must try not to "lose" torque just shift the torque peak higher in the rpm band. =
Cody,,,
Ummmm,,,, Is it getting late or am I going brain dead :D
I have read your post about four times now & all I can ask is,,,,, What??? :confused:

You all ain't been smokin' them funny cigarettes have you :D :D

whats wrong? do i have no idea what i am talking about?

Originally posted by cody:
whats wrong? do i have no idea what i am talking about? =
Wasn't saying that, ;) I just don't understand your post??

Maybe if you reworded it or maybe it's past my bedtime :D

I think you are saying you will have more torque with your wide LSA & all else being equal this is not so.
A wide LSA will give you a flatter torque curve with less peak torque & a closer LSA will make more peak torque in a narrower range.

This is a very generalized discription as what works in a 350 at 6000 is not what works in a 500" engine at 9000 but we ain't usually concerned with Pro Stock type engines here. ;)

okay, i wasnt' saying that i would get more torque with a wider LSA at all. But i did think that a wider LSA would deliver max torque at a higher rpm. But after reading your short explanation which makes perfect sense i see what you mean, i actually already knew about the differences between LSA's but somewhere down the line was a little confused, but i think my post still makes sense, i did edit it for more friendly reading.

Originally posted by cody:
But if you must, try not to "lose" torque just shift the torque peak/curve higher in the rpm band. The torque difference between 2000 and 4500RPM averages 40 ft-lbs, not enough to make a difference to me. Plus I've done everything there is to do to the chevelle short of back halfing it. Plus the HUGE HP gaines from 4500 and up will by far make up for the difference.

Lee

Originally posted by 70_chevelle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by cody:
But if you must, try not to "lose" torque just shift the torque peak/curve higher in the rpm band. The torque difference between 2000 and 4500RPM averages 40 ft-lbs, not enough to make a difference to me. Plus I've done everything there is to do to the chevelle short of back halfing it. Plus the HUGE HP gaines from 4500 and up will by far make up for the difference.

Lee </font>[/QUOTE]There are always more things to try. My suggestion would be to take the car to a chassis shop that has experience in tuning stock suspension type drag cars. They can often find little overlooked items that could make a big difference. Before you spend any more $$$, take the time to take the car to a chassis shop and have them look the car over as well as critique the setup and give suggestions. This will likely entail paying a couple hundred $$$ and leaving the car for a couple days, but in the end, I truly believe this is your best option right now.

Your solid roller is gonna build more hp & tq which will possibly make the car a little quicker, but at the same time will make your traction issue even worse than it is now.

Fix the chassis/combination setup even if it means getting professional help from a chassis shop...well worth the $$$ and time spent.

So,what did they told you wolfman? :rolleyes:
Pete

Originally posted by PETE466:
So,what did they told you wolfman? :rolleyes:
Pete =
=
Hi Pete,
Talked to Ron Iskenderian & besides the upgraded roller assembly they do not have the same hi pressure oiling system that the Red Zones do & the bodies are hardened in a different manner for "toughness"

They are both the good 8620 material but the Red Zones are a more ductile core with a harder wearing surface where the standard lifter is not hardened on the surface.
They do have pin oiling but it is not constant full pressure to the needles.
Also, do you know who you talked to?
If so would you email me his name?

You still have an excellent lifter but it is not what I would prefer to run in a street or endurance environment ;)

Lee, Those "Isky Red Zone" lifters come really quickly. Mine arrived in about 3 days from the time that "Wolfy" ordered them. To the pushrod question, you always need to check pushrods as their length is the most commonly made mistake in setting up a valvetrain and that geometry must be right if you are to avoid guide wear and other issues.

Lee, just wanted to bring something with a cam swap to your attention, just in case you weren't aware.

Your making the change from a mild hydraulic roller to a mid/high lift bracket type solid roller.

First, your heads need to come off and go to a machine shop to have the valve springs set to the correct specs including installed height, seat and open pressures. If your installed height is not tall enough for the springs, expect to see the shop have to juggle with taller retainers, keepers, or even possibly longer valves. While the heads are at the shop, now is a perfect time to have the guides checked for any sloppyness and have the valve job redone or touched up...some power there if done right.

Second, The engine really needs to be on an engine stand and a degree wheel/degreeing kit installed to properly dial the cam in to the recommended specs. TDC needs to be very accurately determined and marked on the timing pointer & balancer. An ATI SFI balancer is 360 degree marked which is really nice for setting timing etc...that and a Tavia adjustable aluminum pointer makes it real simple to set the TDC marks exactly to spec.

Third, while the heads are off, the pistons need to be clayed up and piston to valve clearances checked at zero lash.

Do not use oil galley restrictors for this engine!

If you skip any of these steps, your risking the life of your engine...serious damage may result if everthing isn't perfect, especially when running a solid roller.

10secBu - Thanks for the great info.

1) I do have the engine on a stand. As for the springs, they are comps 991 with a seat of 222#'s and open is 670#'s. The install height is 1.95 and I did acheive that with ~.070 shims. I did have to cut the spring pocket out for the springs to fit.

2) I did degree it on the on the stand, as it turns out I didnt have to change anything.

3) I didnt use clay because I didnt have any but what I did do was from 20 BTDC and 20 ATDC in 5 degree increments, I put my spring tester on the rocker arm and opened the valve past it's maximum lift to see if there was any contact.

The engine is not back together yet and it just dawned on me that I have some clay bar laying around! I will do it again but with clay this time to be 100% sure.

No oil restrictors!

What I ended up with is the machine shop removed .060 from the head, I'm hoping to go from 9.6 to 10.6-10.8 compression. I then gasket matched the heads, cleaned up all the casting marks and smoothed out the ports. I also polished the exhaust ports and the combustion chambers. I was really surprised how messy the ports were! I have some pictures of before and after if your interested in seeing them.

Thanks again for everyone input.

Lee

Lee,
I'm going solid roller on my new BB and it was recommened by several people to run a stud girdle. Instead I will be using Jesel SS shaft rocker. My pressures will be less open than yours. That's a fair amount of pressure and lift.