There is one reason, among others, I like this board. Quite a bit. I can post some stuff that really pisses people off about how I **** money into the wind or whatever and don't get that much flak over it.
I sometimes visit another board. Its a massachusetts league of street racers. I don't street race. I have 3 times in my life (not stoplight 0-45, but I don't do that hardly ever either) (I've had some trouble with the law driving in massachusetts, I watch my arse and don't do stupid stuff, or keep it to a minimum. Thats why I have to ask if I check WOT vacuum in my driveway :D ).
Anyway. I hate to bring the dribble these people attack eachother with here, but I just have to ask. At what point do you call BS?
When a says something like "my second stage of 650hp nitrous makes more hp than your whole car" (and this is not directed at me, I am just lurking), when do you step in and say-- you know what? I just stepped in a pile of .....
That sorta stuff is 25k motors with 33" tires, liberty's, fab 9's, parachutes, etc.
Or am I wrong? I mean I don't post to this board, but I sometimes I just want to hit a send key and get into a way (but thats why I hang out here). I mean, I have 8k into my engine before the rebuild and 2nd cam swap. Its a heap of cash and I run crap for numbers, but there is a learning curve (that and I won't do a roll cage and a set of slicks).
Is there any way possible an engine could stay alive with 2nd stage nitrous kits that absolutely have to make more power than the engine alone does? I mean?
Do I just ignore it like I have been?
but I feel bad because this person out trash talks people with cars that I have seen perform and I know by common sense...

well lets not get into it.

Nitrous. How much can a forged internal, alum head, well built engine take? And with what behind it?
(I think I just realized the computer on chevelles.com changed P*SS into **** automatically). It's not my board so I won't comment, plus one of the mods down in bench racing isn't keen on me anyway.

matt

oh yeah... well my dad can still beat up your dad! ;)

to guys that talk like that I just have to say :rolleyes:

The only one that I know that runs big nitrous around here is "66 283" or something like that,he might be able to answer your nitrous questions better. I'm not a bull****ter and can't stand to listen to one graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I would say rather than get into a P***ing match, which it will always turn into, I would do my homework and collect as many facts as possible. The next time you are around these types of people that are talking crap, turn the tables on them with facts. See if they stumble all over themselves trying to explain their bull. Sometimes I think it's more fun to make an arse out of someone with fact and real world experience. We've all been aroung them, most times I just shake my head (as long as I know it's not true) and smile, but if their claim is really far fetched, I can't help myself but to call their bluff!

Bob, thanks for the introduction ;)

I have been too busy to frequent this site lately, but has it come to that? I guess there are always people like that out there - I know there are at my track. Just try to ignore them - belittling (sp) someone for what they don't have serves no purpose.

to answer the nitrous question - I don't know the answer, but I do know that the more you spray the less incremental power you make. I know people that spray a fogger and a plate and don't pick up that much from the second system. Yes, you can run 2 systems with "advertised" horsepower ratings that are ridiculous, but you can't just add it up. Some people have really pushed the limits though and had their stuff live. I know someone who sprays 7 lbs of nitrous per pass through a small block! :eek: I know of another with 2 foggers who makes about 400 on one stage plus another 350 on the second stage. I would doubt that he makes 750 but it makes enough.

And the advertised ratings are WAY optimistic and purely theoretical above say 300-350hp.

66 283 (in memphis right now)

Any of these people who you talk to chat on yahoo? tongue.gif ...I've come across a whole bunch of people that chat in yahoo car chat who know everything!?!?..lol Anyways, I used to try to get into it with them, but at the time I was still learning about motors and couldn't back myself up too good. I hardly chat there because I'm always here or racing on www.rpmworld.com (http://www.rpmworld.com) or www.jorotek.com (http://www.jorotek.com) But if I do happen to come across someone who's making (espically import people) "800hp 4-banger all motor" just laugh and ingore it. I've shut a couple people up with real facts and have actually made a couple friends who realize I'm not tryin to trash them, but only tyring to explain a point or say, hey we're not all mighty, but anything done right is good....something along those lines. A lot also depends on age.....you talk to a 18, 19 year old and majority of them think they're car is invincable.....but I've also come across people the same age or maybe a lil younger who really know their stuff. So I just say if you're in a situation like that....hear them out....see what their point is...distinguish if they're bashing or trying to make an honest comparison....then once you feel you've got a "grip" on things....then you can add your $.02 graemlins/thumbsup.gif

There's an article in the new carcraft about the nitrous grenade motor...something about not being able to stuff enough nitrous to double a motors horse power...

Matt,for the record,I enjoy your posts :D
Too many people talk crap on the internet (not on this bb) and its funny,when I go the track,I haven't met anyone that talks crap,and I've seen/know a couple people with some quick cars that run into the 10's and are always helpful and very cool to hang out with.I try and stick to the grass roots level of enthusiasts,it doesn't matter if they have a 14 second car or a 10 sec. car as long as they're "real" people.I run into just the opposite at cruise nights..people that have a ton of money into a car,and talk crap about dyno numbers and how fast Desktop Dyno said the their car would be,bla,bla..but have never gone to the track."I have too much money into it"...or "I need a trailer"..or "if it breaks and I don't have a trailer,what do I do"..."its too long of a ride" :rolleyes: ..but you have to sit there and listen to them on how their ride akes 550 HP and should run 11.50's,etc. Well,you don't have to listen to them,but I choose not to be rude..its almost entertainment.

LOL, Chris that reminds me of a guy i talked to at our local cruise in.....Yellow nova, tubbed out with probably the biggest tires the magazine advertised, racing seats, sheetmetal interior, full roll cage, harnesses, the whole shebang!

When i asked him what it ran down the 1/4, he resonded with "you cant sell something you beat on". Ha!

If you don't have a timeslip I don't want to hear it smile.gif

Kinda like the self proclaimed " Racers " who had a 440 Hemi, run 12's @ 165, tell them I ran 6.70's 1/8 and they say " so thats a 13.40 1/4 ?" Run Jet and/or Rocket fuel. on and on it goes .......

I usually don't say anything like you, because I consider myself "still learning". But it is insulting to me when a guy (true story) tells me his POS '71 chevelle with worn out 235/60's and a "built 402" ran the 1/8th mile in 3.85 graemlins/clonk.gif graemlins/angry.gif :eek: graemlins/sad.gif C'mon dude! I sure don't know everything but that's the biggest pile of doo I've heard in a long time....

I run into just the opposite at cruise nights..people that have a ton of money into a car,and talk crap about dyno numbers and how fast Desktop Dyno said the their car would be,bla,bla..but have never gone to the track."I have too much money into it"...or "I need a trailer"..or "if it breaks and I don't have a trailer,what do I do"..."its too long of a ride" ..but you have to sit there and listen to them on how their ride akes 550 HP and should run 11.50's,etc. Well,you don't have to listen to them,but I choose not to be rude..its almost entertainment.You hit the nail on the head! smile.gif

Man, if I had a dollar for all the "cruise night" people bragging about thier too expensive, mis-matched, poorly tuned combos with no data to support thier wild claims, I could build another car.

...and its times like these when I don't feel so bad about missing cruise night!

I'm lucky I don't run into people like this too much. If I do, I usually listen politely for a little while and then excuse myself.

If it's on the net I just ignore it.

The real tell all, is when you do race these guys and find out how slow they are, or how poorly they drive there cars.

MadMarv: I'm the same way - only I'll openly admit I street race. Yeah, I know its unsafe and foolish but whenever I do it, its on a backwoods road at 1AM, no cars/people past the line, no passengers, no idiots - only people that could be killed are me and the person in the other lane. However, even if John Force himself pulls up next to me at a street light reving his motor, I wouldnt race - too risky, possible innocent bystanders, possible cops, etc.

Anyway, back to the topic. I know a ton of internet BS'ers who talk like they have a 7 second street car but the reality is they're morons. Call them out and watch how quick they pile up the excuses. "I only race for $1000!" "my cars almost done!" blablablablah. You gotta realize its VERY hard to hook a fast car on the street. There are tons of fast street racers in my area. Every once in awhile some nasty race car will be pulled off a trailer and what happens? It goes up in smoke, ice skates down the road and loses to a slower car. Fastest REAL street cars around here (pump gas, small tire, stock style suspension, DRIVEN not trailered) are in the 9.80-10.30 range. Anything faster and it seems to lose its street-car-ness or its ability to hook good enough.

In conclusion, don't fear or even believe any guy who claims to have 650+HP shot of spray that he runs on the street - it'd just be too hard to hook, too hard to be driven anywhere but off a trailer, and definately not a real street car. Just because it has plates, insurance, registration, and functioning headlights doesn't make it a street car.

Ahhh my favorite pile of BS came from a certian "hotrodders" bulletin board. A fellow there was talking about the "good old days" when the best way to go fast was to find a Big Block Chevelle, put 12:1 pistons in it, thow a SUPERCHARGER ON TOP, with 4.56 gears and a muncie. I called him on it, told him he was full of **** about 12:1 and a supercharger, and he didnt have a response.
Well i do have to say i have seen a little BS getting flung around here and the camaro boards.

I went to a LS1 site to check out the chat on the new GTOs. One guy stated that he saw a GTO beat a new Mach 1 at the track. I couldn't believe it but in a matter of minutes three Mach 1 guys posted how he was full of it. I'm glad that this site is a good place to exchange ideas and results, without outsiders coming in telling you how you choice is second rate.

.

After you hang with it for a while you kind of get the feel for things. Most times it's not worth calling someone out, because there will always be an excuse, or they will refuse to acknowledge the hard facts.

broke is hitting the nail on the head. There are certain physical realities that cannot be overcome in this world, though they "look good on paper."

I remember when I was in high school a guy was telling me how he ran 10s with his Malibu. Yep, a full interior, totally street, single exhaust '74 Malibu with air shocks and Cragars on the back. I didn't know much then, so I just kind of nodded and said, "Cool, man!" with some reservations. Some time later I learned that you must have a total package to pull down those sorts of numbers. No completely standard street suspension will get 10s - and I won't even go into the single exhuast thing. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by MadMarv:
At what point do you call BS? Call it when you see it. Whether you're nice and respectable, drag it out to make him look like an ass, or walk all over him, thats up to you. But if you know he's full of it, don't let him get away with it. The worst that could happen is you force him to prove it, and he really ends up having something good. At least you'll respect him after that. I couldnt tell you how many times I've called BS on people on IRC car channels. If they dont like me because of it, yippy. I dont want to be friends with a bulls#%*er anwyays.

>>MadMarv: I'm the same way - only I'll openly admit I street race. Yeah, I know its unsafe and foolish but whenever I do it, its on a backwoods road at 1AM, no cars/people past the line, no passengers, no idiots - only people that could be killed are me and the person in the other lane. However, even if John Force himself pulls up next to me at a street light reving his motor, I wouldnt race - too risky, possible innocent bystanders, possible cops, etc.>>

I used to do the 1AM stuff when I first got the car running, but I did it about 3 times and said its not for me.
I would like to find a road around me where I can test my car at night for governor calibration and stuff, but the road the street racers use here is flat out dangerous. I'm surprised no one has been killed there yet.
About the street light thing, I didn't mean to imply I race people from a street light, just a little gas and go to about the speed limit, let the guy know what the story is (or isn't :D ). My boss does stop light racing all the time I and I get ticked at him about it.
Also, this post came about from a friend of mine who posts on this other board mass-something I forget exactly, but all they do is fight on the board. Its unreal. It's amazing how civilized we are here..

Take it easy everyone.
Oh-- and this can be answered by email, but if anyone travels I-495 in MA up to exit 52 or 53, can you tell me if they fixed the road yet? I can't drive my car to NED because of my headers and the road "repair."

Ah, the good ol days! OK, just a few years back, finally get a rat-on-a-stick on my hands and I'm out in the country freaking' out the cows singing along at 6-7K through a VERY LOUD x-pipe exhasut.

It must have been loud enough, and tuned at such a pitch that those durn ol' bovines would always rear thier heads when I zipped by. smile.gif I've checked with the new muffs, they don't even look anymore! :(

I like your posts too Matt. You're young and eager, and that, in and of itself is cool.

At what point to you call BS, is an artform, not a science. And sometimes the better part of 'valor' is just to let it go. Sometimes you just gotta clear the air of the rancid stench of lies and call 'em on it. That's my problem, I tended to wait too long, get steamed and then approach it most un-diplomatically. Better to ease into calling the BS. " Are you sure about that." " Really, on pump gas?" " It's only a 396, eh?" tongue.gif

Experience, grasshopper. Go out into the world and test the limits, screw up a few times, and tweak your decision rules to get it right.

I495. Kripes , do they know how to make flat bridges in MA. Man every friggin' overpass, bu-bump, up, bu-bump down. That road is terrible.

Be cool man. Find your own path. Don't lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do. Eff the rest, let our Maker sort their sorry arses out.

Look at it this way, your chevelle will always go up in value while their little plastic turds go down in value everyday. Whenever I encounter these people anymore, I kinda do the hand gesture that they are not worth my talking to and keep moving on. This morning at work, one of our customers, a Mustang owner, came in to pick up an item. He asked me what my 70 ran in the 1/4. I really have not run it in the 1/4, only the 1/8th so I told him it ran an 8.0 in the 1/8th and not really sure what that equalled. He says to me this: "That equals slow chevy junk". I said oh really, you want to race for titles? He rapidly shut up after that :D .

what really pisses me off is when some clown who knows nothing buys a 10 second car, then claims to know everything! you know he doesn't know what he's doing, but the car was built by someone else who did, then what do you do? you can't call him out on it, cause in my case he'd blow my doors off then people would think i was the idiot and he was the gearhead! :rolleyes: happened to me once.....i just waited till his car got out of tune and then put the hammer on him! then tuned his car up for him, afterwards! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Yeah but that 10 second car will be a 10 second car all of a few passes with sopmone who knows nothing....they dont maintain/tune themselves

Yeah, well i'm putting about 1500hp with a 4 stage N20 kit on my 333!! ;) :D Yeah you have to love those people who BS. One of my buddies has a 91 fox body that's pretty quick. He ran a 13.4 with a stock engine. He's cutting some VERY respectable times for his combo. Anyway, people out here where we live were always talking crap to him about how his car is slow and bla bla bla because it's a mustang. There was this one guy in particular that has a 80 something camaro...305...total POS. Well my buddy and I are cruising in his mustang and we pull into a parking lot where this guy is and there's also a bunch of hot chicks hanging around him. You can tell they think he's cool and his car is cool....etc. So since this guy always talked crap we pulled up to him and said hello. He automatically says that the mustang sucks and he could destroy it in a race. So my buddy says, "well why don't we race? Lets put money on it. How's $400?" He pulls out $400 and says that if the guy wants to race for more, or even less that he'd be happy to. The guy just shut up and a number of the girls started laughing at him. It was BEAUTIFUL! :D :cool: The look on the guys face was priceless.....just pure embarassment.

There have been other times where the two of us were cruising in his car and somebody else with a POS or an import will come up and want to race. So we just pull into a parking lot and ask them how much, and whether they want to let us use the nitrous. That pretty much ends the conversation right there.

I just love it when these "hot shots" with their "fast cars" are talking crap and you shut them up. ESPECIALLY if there are a bunch of hotties around. Makes the guy feel like the biggest loser and you know he's going to hear about how he got his a$$ handed to him by the girls. lol :D


Soo many stories...so little time. ;)

There have been other times where the two of us were cruising in his car and somebody else with a POS or an import will come up and want to race.Something about 5.0 / 4.6 Mustangs just draws the idiots to you. I have a '95 GT as my daily, and I get the Import crowd trying to race me all the time. I don't get that so much when I am in the Nova.

My other favorite BS is the guys that remember "the good ole days" with a distorted memory. All the stories about how thier stock SS396 would yank the front wheels on a 1-2 shift on street tires, etc., etc.

Originally posted by MadMarv:
Oh-- and this can be answered by email, but if anyone travels I-495 in MA up to exit 52 or 53, can you tell me if they fixed the road yet? I can't drive my car to NED because of my headers and the road "repair." That would be a big negative on the road repair. I live just off the highway right at exit 52 its still ripped up.

There is bs floating around every message board. That is why I put my P462 on a dyno. I heard way too many different things on how much power it should make, that I wanted to know for sure. You know the deal where someone who is running a VERY similar combo to yours says he is making X amount of hp and it is way higher than what you are expecting out of yours.
The posts where someone puts the actual dyno data up, such as the graph, or a list of rpm's, hp and tq are much more believable, but the posts where someone says, " Yeah, I dyno'd my engine and it made 610hp" are not believable. Call them on that, ask about hp and tq values at different rpms. If they don't know it, they are likely full of it.

I have already encountered the BS and I am not into racing my car. I had been talkin with some good friends and a few guys I didn't know real well a while back. One of my buddies mentioned I had just put vortecs and a new cam in my baby, along with new gears and a posi. Of course I am smiling because I am quite proud of the fact I did it all myself for the first time. One guy asks me how fast it is and what would it do in the 1/4. I told him it is definately quicker than before and figured I might possibly be in the mid 14's if I tried (purely a guess)He said I must have done something wrong because he would have put it into the high 12's, using the same upgrades.This guy knew everything about everything and started telling me I should have maybe had a little help :rolleyes:
Ahh, take it with a grain a salt, someone will always be able to up you 1

Along the same idea here. I had some of these guys tell me that it was not absolutely necessary to degree a new cam which I told them I had done.They said a couple of degrees makes no difference. Of course me, being the highly experienced engine builder I am :rolleyes: pipes up and said "What is the point in upgrading a cam if you don't install it right. Having a cam installed right means the valves are in proper position where meant to be, not that your ignition timing is different" Probably a stupid remark from me but I couldn't understand how all these so called experienced engine magicians could say that. One remarked well GM hasn't done it all these years and how could they be wrong. :confused:

I saw this Mustang run at my track a couple years ago it had everything, big mud flaps, rocker panel lights, flourescents underneath must have been 10 subwoofers, you get the idea. The dual 4 barrels out of the hood had a lot of the less experienced hooting and hollering about.

It even had a small chandilear (sp.) hanging as the interior light.

the guy was talking crap about how it would run 10's.

The 17+ ET finally quieted him down...it was so funny just because of how the car looked.


I just say uh hum uh hum, and good luck when the stories start flying and the BS gets to unbearable. I got tired of arguing or discussing, you can usually tell who really knows what they are talking about with the first few sentences.

Reminds me of my friend who has a '68 Camaro SS. 'It's a 406 smallblock with 550HP.' 'Crank or wheels?' I ask. He doesn't know. I ask what internals. He is like 'you know...cam...etc.' Uhh.....right. What heads? 'Stock '69 Z28 heads. All my friends who race are all OMG NUTTERS I WANT THOSE HEADS.' Right, so I'm sure they're going to flow so great on his engine and stuff. As well as his awesome TH350 and 3.73 posi and street slicks.

Ran a 13.88 @ 97 MPH, and hooked well.

Yup - only guy that sprays hard on this board is 66283 - and that's just to clean the plugs!

Give em ell - Ryan!!


MAT

Originally posted by mc71454:
...you can usually tell who really knows what they are talking about with the first few sentences. yeah, like when someone says. "Big Block Pontiac" lol i actually had a guy arguing to me that I cannot put P400 heads on my P455 because the P455 is a big block and the P400 is a small block. I asked him if he was sure he wasn't getting confused with a SBC 400 and he was adimate about it. I just said, "oh, you must be right then. my engine will never run now" lol

Don't you love it when someone who knows nothing about your combo, or probably nothing about much at all starts giving you advice on "what you should have done" or "you need to put in a..." ? I just had someone tell me that I should put a supercharger on my car. He said, "yeah for $3k you'll pick up 150hp" He then proceded to tell me about some nissan awd supercharged 1500hp 200mph $150,000 car. I just sat there and thought to my self "i don't even have $3k in my entire engine" lol

Originally posted by 71chevy0192:
So we just pull into a parking lot and ask them how much, and whether they want to let us use the nitrous. That pretty much ends the conversation right there. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean....only difference is that I wait untill they bring up the nitrous comment....then I usually shut them up by saying...."Do you really need nitrous to beat me?" ...lol..."So you're admitting you can't beat and have to use nitrous?" ...pretty much makes them look stupid then i leave. :D

Originally posted by fourfiddyfour:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mc71454:
yeah, like when someone says. "Big Block Pontiac" lol i actually had a guy arguing to me that I cannot put P400 heads on my P455 because the P455 is a big block and the P400 is a small block. Man, it sure gets old with people mislabeling the Pontiac engines. I see that all the time too. I even see Pontiac guys do that. One guy said, "I know it's not a big block, but it just sounds cooler that way." Yeah, like saying it's a big block 327 in your Super Sport - it sounds so much cooler! :rolleyes: graemlins/clonk.gif

Most of the time I see eBay ads advertising GTOs with the "big block 400."

Now that I think of it, I remember a guy I worked with years ago telling me about his '57 Chevy. It was pretty cool up until he dropped the "327 Hemi" reference. I said, "What?" and he gives me some two sentence explanation about how the 327 was Chevy's hemi head engine because of the design. I just let that one slide.

And at the same job there was a different guy who told me about his 442 with its "four speed turbo 400 tranny." I hadn't learned my lesson, so I said, "What?" and he said, "The Turbo 350 was a 3 speed, and the Turbo 400 was a 4 speed." I let that one slide too.

Where do people come up with this stuff? graemlins/clonk.gif

I'm sure the medical community actually has a name for the peculiar mental condition afflicting some car enthusiasts that makes all automotive knowledge swirl around them in their own private universe.

When I encounter a line of B.S. I now reply something like: "Really, you don't expect me to listen to that B.S. with a straight face do you you?" Naturally that puts the B.S. artists on high alert, and they mightily defend their position. Even if you don't have enough automotive knowledge to do battle with this type of person just say: "now how is it that you or your friend(s) have figured out how to get results that elude professional racers?".

Mostly it is best to walk away because the B.S. artist never likes to be put on the spot

Thomas

Now that I think of it, I remember a guy I worked with years ago telling me about his '57 Chevy. It was pretty cool up until he dropped the "327 Hemi" reference. I said, "What?" and he gives me some two sentence explanation about how the 327 was Chevy's hemi head engine because of the design. I just let that one slide.

[/QB]HAHA! TH i had the same thing happen to me i was talking about my 355 in the velle to one of my friends, just minding my own business and some random guys walks up out of nowhere and says that i meant a 355 hemi b/c hemi's and chevy engines are the same thing.....funny thing is my friends actually believed him. I just laughed and walked away haha

about the dyno post earlier....IMO, a dyno is just a tuning device. there are too many different kinds and too many different ways to measure hp on a dyno, so it can't be an across the board measurement to go by. it can give you a good idea of what to expect, but it's mostly to help tune a car in to see what actually helps and what doesn't. my dyno is at the track.

Originally posted by TH:

Most of the time I see eBay ads advertising GTOs with the "big block 400."I don't remember where I seen it, but I do know it was out of a parts catalogue...said BB400 and BB455....I don't know too much about Pontiacs, but I do know those 455s are daaamn small! But of course, like any motor, built right they can haul! graemlins/thumbsup.gif