I have a 69 chevelle that i am wanting to turn into the bad-ass daily driver that can run 12's at the track but deliver 17-18 mpg also. Im looking into using a twin-turbo setup in order to achieve my goals. I need u guys help with getting my parts list right before i start buying stuff up. I woulod really like to use a 283 for some odd reason, I would like to build a 400-450 horse 283ci. I figure I have the power but also the mileage. Here's my part list no matter what the cubic inches.
On a budget though...

Megasuirt ECU w/ Tuned Port Injection w/ im thinking 36# injectors
Fully ported 5.7L TPI Heads
Forged pistons with 8:1 compression
Eagle I Beam Rods(Rated 500 hp)
Stock crank unless i can get a forged crank
2 bolt block most definately unless i find a 4 bolt
Speed Pro Hellfire Rings
Twin T3 .50 series running 4 pounds of boost each maybe 5
Chevy HEI from TPI and Boost Timer
Xtreme Turbo Cam(any suggestions please)
Intercooler

Pretty much i want you to take these items and criticise, agree, disagree whatever you want, but just help me build my combo and tell me what will work and won't work at all...

Rest of combo if needed
Built G-Force T-5 , 3.23 cogs, and 3800lbs of heavy metal

Why not run a bigger single turbo... Supposedly a single turbo will spool up faster. I plan on running a single T04B at about 10-15 lbs boost on my 71.

283/turbo on a budget????????? How about 350/383, can the turbo idea, toss in some 4.11 gears and a TKO600 with the .68 overdrive and whalla. theres 12's, good mileage, and with less maintainence. Just my suggestion.

get rid of the 283 and go with a 350. u will be much happier. stick with the turbo idea. they are the best power adder.

Don Quixote lives! And he dreams of a twin turbo 283 on the cheap. Sorry, but I'm finding it hard to get excited about a TT 283.

I do believe all 283's had a steel crank and that none had 4 bolt mains (I'm fuzzy on 283's because I started out with 327's).

In the '50's Mercedes built these beautiful Gull wing door cars: double overhead cam, fuel injection, loads of technology for the time - problem was that for all of the great technology it made no power.

No one can tell its only a 283 - why on earth would you limit yourself unless your goal was having "the look" - but horsepower be damned.

TPI heads are way yesterday's news (I'm not sure how compatible their valve sizes are for the small bore 283)- fully porting them is an exercise in futility compared with using newer head designs.

TPI, by design, is very rpm limiting on where it builds power, using a smaller displacement will help to move the power band up in the rpms - but it will not eliminate upper rpm limited airflow from a TPI.

At 4 psi boost (each), it is questionable to me if you even need an intercooler. Just run higher octane fuel when you want to play - its far cheaper than an intercooler. As a note, the SC468 listed in my sig was at 17.1 psi boost at that power level. No intercooler either, just high octane race fuel.

On camshaft selection, I'm going to say that you are venturing into an area (TT 283) for which no real data exists. Meaning that even the cam companies will be at a loss for a specific recommendation. In general terms you will want 114 to 116 degrees lobe separation angle, valve lift in the low to mid .4xx's, duration in the low 200's.

You will most likely find EFI programming to be a lenghty process; the likey result of building a "different" combo with no other comprable EFI maps. To meet your power goals at that boost level means your non-boost horsepower would be ~ 300.

Best of luck, make power your way - and keep a stiff upper lip in reserve to explain over and over again why you went down this path in the quest for power and 12's.

Thomas

With 30 pounds of boost :eek: you can go fast with cheep parts. Thick cylinder walls and a STOCK camshaft are what you need. No need for big valves or high rpms.

http://www.studebakerclubs.com/21stCenturyTurbo/

Dick Datson is like a turbo Smokie Yunick. No one believes it can be done like he says, but I have seen Ted Harbits' 10 second Stude run. Seeing IS believing. Oh, the turbo book is cheep too.

And you can blow through a cheep Holley carb and don't need fuel injection.

Originally posted by RacnJsn95:
Why not run a bigger single turbo... Supposedly a single turbo will spool up faster. I plan on running a single T04B at about 10-15 lbs boost on my 71. Actually, its the other way around, two small turbos will spool up faster than one large one.

I'd skip the 283 also.

Jeff Smith (Car Craft Editor) had John Lingenfelter build him a blown fuel injected 302 with 400 or 500 hp, and 25 mpg, but I'd doubt very much, that it was cheap.

Now if you could find a wrecked Turbo Regal....

Im not sure why i picked a 283 i just for some odd reason want to use one.
What do you think of me using a 327?
I think that will help me to my 12 sec. goal but also stay in a economy range also.

The boost level will most likely be around 5-6 pounds from each after doing some more research on the subject, but you must remember this is going to be a daily driver, not some crank up on teh weekends, stomp a couple of times and put back in the garage.

What heads do ya recommend?

I am going to open up the runnners on the TPI setup but I only need it to really hit around 5200 rpm?

Would i be able to use a stock steel crank or do i need a forged?

Thanks for all teh help even teh basj=hing about the 283. :D

You know, actually, a 283 is kind of an intersting choice. These old motors had really thick cylinder walls (read tough) and the small displacement allows for low compression ratios with common cylinder heads and flat tops. You can make up for the lack of displacement with more boost.

You don't need fancy cylinder heads for a turbo motor IMO -- you are forcing air in and forcing it out. If you use an aluminum head I would seriously consider getting the inside of the exhaust port coated and maybe step up to 3/8" stem sodium filled exhaust valves. Heat absorbtion in the exhaust port is a real issue with an aluminum head turbo motor from what I've heard.

The only thing I'd really do different is use more boost. If you are going to use an intercooler anyway, crank it up! I'd look at the GN as a reference for turbo sizing -- the 283 isn't much bigger than the Buick V6.

For a small V8 I'd look at a single unit maybe off a GN - a single turbo would be cheaper . . . but a little more plumbing on the exhaust side would be required. Look at eBay, the GN guys are always upgrading turbos and selling off the old stuff.

Dare to be different graemlins/thumbsup.gif

So Eric68 you think that the 283 will be a pretty good candidate for the twin-turbo?

How much boost should I run?

Remember Daily Driver

Originally posted by Eric68:
For a small V8 I'd look at a single unit maybe off a GN - a single turbo would be cheaper . . . but a little more plumbing on the exhaust side would be required.

Dare to be different graemlins/thumbsup.gif Yes .... dare to be different!

Turbos are sized to the engine, on the intake side and the exhaust side. A 283 is 23% larger than a 3.8 Buick. Using a turbo from a 3.8L, the exhaust would cause the turbo to spin faster than it should and the turbo wouldn't push enough air on the intake side for good boost pressure. You would be closer to a match if you used two turbos from 2.3L Mustangs.

Could you explain why i can't use one GN Turbo, cuase i heard they are some bad ass turbos.
when would the two SVO Mustang turbos spool up and give out do you think?
How much power will they support at what boost level?

Thanks for all the help guys?

Im 90% sure im going with the 283 graemlins/beers.gif

How many rpms do ya think the I-Beams will hold?

Could you explain why i can't use one GN Turbo, cuase i heard they are some bad ass turbos.
when would the two SVO Mustang turbos spool up and give out do you think?
How much power will they support at what boost level?

Thanks for all the help guys

Im 90% sure im going with the 283 graemlins/beers.gif

How many rpms do ya think the I-Beams will hold?

Think of the volume, of displacement of the engine. A bigger engine needs more turbo to feed it effectively.

Since you have two banks of cylinders, and since finding a turbo to feed 300 c.i. will be hard.

Seems two turbos, would be a natural.

Do a search, I know there was a guy with a 68 Beaumont (Canada's Chevelle) that made the turbo thing work real well.

I always thought that the "Corect" twin turbo set up was one small turbo and one larger turbo. The small one spools MUCH faster but only helps out to mid range rpm, Then the big one (that takes longer to spool) takes over to redline.

That is a sequential setup which is the best but does not have to be done that way. But it is the best of both worlds quick spool time and big boost on the top end.

I would talk to innovative turbos. They are making systems that are making 2000 hp single turbos on a 300 + cid small blocks.

One thing you could do is use a 400 block and stroke but sleeve the bore down alittle. This would give a very thick bore for better ring seal and more power.

another person is bennett racing in alabama. although he is primarily a ford man he can give you some really good info on turbos. He makes some of the fastest single turbo engines for the mustang guys.

Todd

Thanks again for all the help
What about header design for these i like teh way Gale Banks desinged his: Gale Banks Twin Turbo Setup (http://www.bankspower.com/twin-turbo-system.cfm)
Anybody have any good ideas on how to fabricate these from header material, what kind of steel should i use??

I understand that there is a 23% diff in the size of the two motors, but the GN guys are using the stock turbo to build 20+ pounds of boost :eek:

A GN turbo would be small enough to spool up quickly, but should be large enough to easily make 10+ lbs of boost on a 283.

To get a real accurate idea of how a GN turbo would work, look at a couple websites that sell turbo and study the airflow requirement formulas and compressor maps.

I've been doing this for grins and you can really learn a lot from reading compressor maps. The thing that holds me back from actually building a TT 383 is all the stainless steel welding and fabrication needed for the xhaust (I don't care to do mild steel since it probably wouldn't last)

With the right setup 6 - 8 psi boost with a single GN turbo on a 283 should in theory make close to 500 HP. So to answer your question -- I would shoot for 6 - 8 psi without an intercooler or 10-12 with an intercooler. That is with 8:1 compression.

PS. Again, I am no turbo expert!! Only a fellow gearhead studying up on the same type of project ;)

I've helped with some research on this subject.
Now, all i've done is research, so I will help with providing info sources.

Very good book for knowlage (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0837601606/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/103-6309310-6097419)
one source for compressor maps (http://www.majesticturbo.com/compression.html)

I also have an excell spreadsheet to play with. It's based upon a 4cyl but the values can be changed.
If you would like a copy, please send me an e-mail
Thom

If anyone has any information on the GN Turbos please send them to me. Thanks again for all the help. I am definatley building my 500hp TT283. graemlins/beers.gif graemlins/waving.gif

The Grand National Turbos are a mystery even to the Grand National guys on Turbobuick.com :mad: :mad: !!!!
I went to GrapeApeRacing.com and found a welath of information and figured out i am going to run either two T3 .50 trims or .60 trims. Unless i can get some info about teh GN trubo sometime soon. Turbomagnum if you can help me out since your the only guy i know who has run a GN turbo, please send me some info if you can.

A company thats having alot of success in the mustang world is hp performance, I know one person in my area that is running one of their 66mm turbo's w/ an intercooler on a 320hp (chassis dyno) 331 (stroked 302 I think) that made 505 rwhp and 527? ( I think) rwtq with 7psi... They couldn't even finish the dyno run because the clutch kept slipping.
I can't say its a good looking car or ever will be considered one, but he still gets 20mpg driving, and just needs to press the gas for power. I think anything the HP performance people are doing for a 302 would work for a 283, but keep in mind these guys are catering to the EFI crowd.
Personally, I think if you are trying to do boost with a carb, talk to someone who does it for a living..

Turbo's def. seem to be the way to go, except maybe for a procharger in the case of chevelles because its hard to get a turbo "kit" (as if it were that easy..), if you want max power.
I think an NA engine is headache enough, I'll live without the power. Sometimes I just sit back and be happy, I can't really imagine having a use for so much power in a car, whats the point?

matt

I am planning on running a TPI Injection setup and i will be able to custom program at any moment with my megasquirt system.

chevelleracer25:
Sorry I havnt been following this thread.
I just ran some #s on a program that I have that calculates turbo size, based on what I know of your combo. A 283 at sea level, 80% efficient with 2 GN turbos(my program has a commpressor map for the t-3 GN)will start to build boost at 2200 rpm, at 3000 rpm it will make 7lbs of boost and at 3300 it will be at 10lbs. I dont know if it will be intercooled or not, that would make a differance. These turbos will suport up to 22lbs of boost up to 7500 RPM. The program shows that the 60 trim GN turbos are as big as you would want to go with a 283, but they will make more top end power. You can go with a T-3 .45 trim or a .50 trim to take up some of the bottom end if you dont have a 2500 stall converter or a manual. The GN turbos will be the cheapest way to go if you can find some used ones on the buick message boards. A rebuild kit will run around $100, and they are easy to rebuild.
I hope this helps.
turbocustoms.com (http://www.turbocustoms.com)
Casey

Hi,After reading alot of replies to your post I can see that you are in for alot of head scratching. I have a 68 Chevelle that I installed TTs on and have been happy with the way I done it.It cost me alot but it sure was easier than what you are about to do or what you may be doing as we speak. If you go to BANKSPOWER.COM and look under Banks racing you'll find twin turbo products.I think this will be all you need to satisfy your thirst for daily driving and the 12 second thirst.

www.nelsonracingengines.com

818-998-5593

tjwong@qwest.net
360-695-9433
Awesome TPI tuning expert, super guy who will spend the time to get it right.

Tell him Cuisinartvette from CF sent ya.

i have also done the turbo thing. they make awesome power in mediocre engines. i would tell you to build a 305 type motor. they are 283 bore, 350 stroke. stroke gives more torque. get a steel 350 crank and get it turned to fit a 283 thick walled block. then use world products 305 torqur heads. twin turbo it with a intercooler and aim for 15 lbs at 5000 rpm. this thing would rock your world. it would still be ok to use the tuned port intake, the pressure doesn't really care about the tube restrictions. i did it to a inline six. dare to be different. when i go to cruise events, people walk by all the 350,383, big block cars and stop and talk lots with me about mine. being different is what hotrodding is all about. tom

I had talked to the guys in MPLS who tune EFI and was told forget TPI. They said it can be done sure, but you just leave so much more left to other EFI systems. He said a TBI would work easier and better as you can change manifolds for better performance. Just a Holley Projection would work better and be easier to tune compared to building on a TPI.
There is a web site with a budget turbo TBird/Capri and he cuts every corner on costs and fab. Makes good power and has results to show it. Just not the greatest looking thing under the hood. Cobbled PVC tube clamps with bubblgum and duct tape everywhere.

Why dont more people build their own turbo setups? It seems to be alot cheaper than a centrifugal blower and works better. I dont have the skills, but lots of people do. I wonder if it is the fact that everyone has twin turbos in mind and decide it is too hard to fit? I think people just like to say "twin turbo" and never consider going with a big single. It seems like that would be alot easier. There are quite a few guys building their own on turbomustangs.com. I havent seen many over here though.

stick with the tuned port. it has everything you need for efi. especially for a small motor aimed at fuel efficiency. just up the injector size and control them with a aftermarket system. i use the holley comander 950. tom

tlowe,
Do you have any pictures of your setup you can post? What did you do for your fuel system? Aero 1000? Thanks!

here are some pic's. i am using a holley fuel pump. click on picture to enlarge. http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/692/pic000228mw.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic000228mw.jpg) http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7021/pic000236ec.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic000236ec.jpg)
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/702/pic000190fh.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic000190fh.jpg)

That is great, thanks for the pics. Are you using a boost referenced mechanical pump or electric?

67, i have a holley electric fuel pump running at 44 lbs, there is also a aeromotive boost referenced fuel pressure regulator. so far this little six is putting out around 420-450 hp and closer to 500 in torque, all below 5000 rpm. i am running 42 lb injectors x 6 and am running out of fuel above 4500 rpm. ANYONE have 50 lb injectors they want to sell? tom

The TPI will be fine to use. Also, the 283 should be plenty as well...on a turbo motor, the turbos make the power, not so much the displacement. However the size does make spooling the turbos easier, which allows bigger turbos to be used, so they can make more power after all, but 500-600HP out of Your motor is easy with turbos. For 500 HP I would use one of those Martin turbo systems
cast iron manifolds (the one that mount the turbo longitudonally, not the one that mounts it at an angle or sideways) and use a 60mm P-trim T4 with an extarnal gate mounted on the crossover. Get a cheap intercooler from ebay and and a cheap small flat tappet turbo cam from Comp...this setup should be spooled fine with a 2600 converter and make about 500hp at around 5500 rpm...plenty for street use, imo...we use this size turbo on the 4.3 litre Syclone/Typhoon V6 motors and they run good even with crappy stock heads..on a V8 it shoud be even better, imo...