Hey there,

Wondering what tough stick trannys are putting up with heavy cars and abuse. I see 540hotrod is using a G Force.

The Doug Nash in my car is 15+ years old. Since I installed supercharger on 468, I broke teeth off the input and cluster drive gear.....by just getting on it in second gear with street tires. Car is a 1970, that tips scales at 4000 with me in it at Englishtown.

Question is.....is G Force 5spd friendly on the street? Downshifting OK? Sounds like it from 540hotrod posts. Like 540....I am into hundred mile cruises, long distance drives, etc. Trying to get more info before purchasing another tranny and clutch.

Thanks gang, Happy Holidays, Joe.

SS,

Sure hope you turn up one that doesn't require pounds of "flesh & bone" to pay for it b/c I figure I will get there onna these days too...

pdq67

Joe, Call Bob or Nick at Jerico Transmissions. I have had 2 and the work awesome and will handle the power and you cannot miss a gear and not bad on the pricing. The G-force transmissions are a great tranny (more expensive) the advantage of the 5 speed is you can overdrive or underdrive it by changing the gear probably cost you about 6k just to get set up, I have never had one but alot of the superstock guys use them. The mcleod street twim clutch is also awesome will hold over 1400hp and the pedal pressure is super light wont have a gorrilla leg after driving it. Good luck. Sean

You may be able to have Liberty transmissions (the pro stock guys) upgrade your Nash. I was looking at doing this for my Vette until I wussed out and bought a turbo 400. Liberty told me they could make my Richmond 6 spd handle 1000 hp.

IMO, the majority of the off-the-shelf street trannies (regardless of manufacturer) start having problems power shifting when you get over 7000 rpm. Pro-shifting them can add another 500+ rpm to the "shiftable" range. But, if you're shifting in that range, you're probably beyond their design capablity.

We ran thru the scenarios I described above and eventually went to a Liberty clutchless 5-speed. It has never missed a shift (at over 8000+ rpm) in our 3500# Malibu, but this class of tranny is not cheap. And, in additional to the tranny, you will need an adjustable clutch and a data logger to help you evaluate the clutch/tire setup.

I don't have any personal experience with the TKO-600, but that would probably be my choice today.

Roger, what type of clutch do you use? and what 1st gear ratio do you have is this street driven or like a super stock car? Thanks sean

I don't know anything about manual transmissions, and Roger, you just confused me even more.

Clutchless transmissions have a clutch? :confused:

"Clutchless" trannys do not require you push in the clutch pedal to shift. You just need a momentary break in applied power to shift, bumping the rev limiter will work. You can use the clutch pedal if you want to shift but in a racing application it takes time and therfore affects the ET. You always use the clutch to get the car into 1st gear.

In fact the proper setting of the clutch(s) is the major area of tuning in getting these cars down the track.

that sounds cool.

The G-force is a great street trans as long as you're talking about "serious" stuff here. If you've ever driven a Muncie that's been converted to a crashbox, then you have the idea. But they aren't even in the same league...the G-force shifts like butter and you aren't likely to bust it up.

The Jerico is also able to handle the power, but I wanted the 5 speed to do the long distance stuff.

Most of the Jerico's are the "clutchless" versions just like the Clutchless G-forces. But I think you can get them either way too. For any real street duty I think the "clutch" version is best, even if it's not as much fun. The clutchless ones's in both trans use a two piece slider that is held together with springs. Those springs are going to require replacement regularly on the street and if they break you can easily hurt parts seriously. If racing only, it's no big deal....just change them every year or so...but street use is a lot different. On top of no ability to downshift.

The clutch version will still shift without using the clutch if you want to and as mentioned you can let it bump the rev limiter to do it. It will go just fine, but it's a little more violent than the clutchless...just barely.

Downshifting the G-force is OK. If you are coming up to a redlight, it will easily drop a gear *IF* you match RPM right. Not a big deal, but remember this is a race trans with no synchros. That's what synchro's are for..to match the speeds of the two gears as you shift. Without that feature, you have to do it. If you are "roadracing" then likely your RPM's are up anyway and it will easily drop a gear as needed. Otherwise, you just blip the throttle a little to match everything up and it goes right in.

The only other issue to be aware of on these things is that when you are sitting in neutral with engine running it will want to clash a little sometimes when you first put it in gear. Remember, there are no synchros in first gear either, so there is nothing to stop those gears at idle. These suckers literally spin with your fingers witht he straight cut gears and tight tolerance machining...so very little drag to stop things. Think of it like a Muncie when you go to stick it in reverse too fast...sometimes it clashes a little. Same deal really. Just make sure your clutch is fully releasing and you'll be OK.

I use the dual disc Mcleod. With two discs and a floater in there, there is lots of area to help create the above situation...but it's not a big deal. Just need to be aware of it.

The dual disc will definitely hold though. No problem there. My car is 3600 lbs with me in it, and I'm sure it can hold much more.

I've thought about using the race style slippper clutches. I discussed it with Mcleod too. They work great, except you start to blur that line between street and race again. *IF* you have it dialed in to slip just right on the shifts and launch, it won't likely hold well until RPM climbs. So when you are riding around in 3rd gear and the pesky dude kicks it beside you....when you mat it....it will likely try to slip badly if you have lots of midrange TQ....now if you drop a gear and get RPM up..you'll be OK. The tricky part is to have it really hold from low-rpm pulling AND still do all that cool race car stuff when you REALLY get with the program. You just have to resign yourself ot either having two different clutch adjustments..one for street and one for the track...or just make sure you drive it "race car style" anytime you're playing. For me that's an issue...I like to do low RPM "roll-on" stuff sometimes without zinging it to 6000 rpm before I start.

There are G-force versions of the T-5 and T-56 if you really want the O/D's. I like the gearing multiplication made up in the trans and the ability to use the larger pinion with more tooth engagement in the rear due to the lower (numerically) gears than say a 4.10-4.56 or whatever. Pinions get smaller as you go up and for heavy cars, I like it my way. I'm using 3.07s in the rear. If it was a pure race deal without the highway part, it would be a whole 'nuther setup..but for street use, this works great.

BTW- I ran a Doug Nash street 5 speed in mine for a long time. But as HP climbed above 700 and RPM climbed too , it was having a tough time keeping up. Great trans, but I think I was starting to find it's limits.

JIM

Originally posted by Slowpoke70:

Clutchless transmissions have a clutch? :confused: Gotta be able to go from neutral to 1st somehow and stage the car. ;)
Also gotta be able to to dump it at 7000RPM for the launch. That is what the clutch is for.

Thanks for the replies.

Like 540hotrod, I have been using use the Doug Nash street 5spd with 3:30 rearend. First through fourth are fun, 5th is 1:1 and almost like having overdrive.

Looking into G Force to continue with 3:30 rearend.

No high rpm shifting (beyond 6000) with my setup.

540hotrod....did you have your 3:07 gears treated? What rearend parts are you running?

Thanks again, Joe

Thanks for the replies.

Like 540hotrod, I have been using use the Doug Nash street 5spd with 3:30 rearend. First through fourth are fun, 5th is 1:1 and almost like having overdrive.

Looking into G Force to continue with 3:30 rearend.

No high rpm shifting (never beyond 6000) with my setup.

540hotrod....did you have your 3:07 gears treated? What rearend parts are you running?

Thanks again, Joe

I have a Dana 60 that has been converted to an IRS setup. The gears aren't heat treated...just regular old stock Dana stuff. I'm counting on them being BIG to help keep them alive!

Talk to "Ash" at G-force. He builds the 5 speeds. Great guy as well as Mike Long at Long Shifters.

What shifter are you planning on using? What clutch?

Once you get that trans, you'll be wanting to change your combo so you can rev higher...its LOTS of fun to bang gears with!


JIM

Hello,

Jim....I will be continue with H pattern shifter. Probably a Long with Muncie handle bolted to it. Right now I have original Munice handle bolted to Hurst Competition Plus on Doug Nash. Looking forward to shfiter with spherical ends / more precise feel.

As for clutch...I am in your camp. Looked at McLeod but also concerned about unwanted slippage getting on the car in higher gear on the street / highway. Right now I am using RAM 910 series sintered iron / sprung hub disc, and 400 series diapharm pressure plate. Nice clutch. Years of great service.

More revs sound like more fun! Right now I have small B&M Supercharger and 236/246 @ .050 cam setup for big torque with low RPM. Rev'ing beyond 6000 is probably pointless for my setup as is. Too high for small blower, and not enough cam.

I asked about the rear end as my heavy car has original 1970 3:31 ring and pinion / posi unit. Inquiring about heat treating new ring and pinion during rear end upgrade for slicks with blower / stick / high torque.

Hope to see your car in action one day.

Thank you, Joe

Double post...sorry 'bout that.

If you go with a G-Force...let me know. I keep kicking around going to the in-line style shifter if I can get my console around it. Maybe we can make a deal and trade shifters and I'll throw in some boot! I have the Long H-pattern. They added some extra re-inforcements to it for me since I was actually planning on banging a few gears! It works great, but I'm thinking the inline might be fun too.

Sounds like you've had good luck with the RAM setup. Not sure if I'll try a slipper style in mine or not. The Mcleod Dual Disc Street Twin I have definitely can hold the power. The Centerforce actually held well to about 700 hp range...but after than it would slip if you flat footed it in say third gear or something.

If I decide to change clutch, maybe we can make a deal on the Street twin setup. No doubt it will hold whatever you have!

I've heard great things from some Super Stocker guys with sticks on the gear treatments from Tom's differentials. Seems to really help life. You might give them a call....I think they stock the treated gears or can do them for you.

JIM

Can't help much on the topic, other than I have a TKO-600, and will give an opinion on it.
SB 406 makin well over 500Hp and 500TQ, shift at 6,600 without issue. Trans is like butter to shift, and the throw from 1st to 2nd is 2 3/4". Internal shift rails, no external rods to bend, I likes it a lot.

Sorry for the delay, but I was offline for a few days. Originally posted by cube:
Roger, what type of clutch do you use? and what 1st gear ratio do you have is this street driven or like a super stock car? Thanks sean Sean – We are currently using a McLeod Softlok (with adjustable static and centrifugal pressure) with a RAM sintered iron disc. Once we went with the Liberty clutchless, we gave up street driving.
Originally posted by Slowpoke70:
…Clutchless transmissions have a clutch?…Enrique – as Jim (Epistuff) pointed out, you have to be able to disengage the tranny somehow (or you would always be moving).
Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
"Clutchless" trannys do not require you push in the clutch pedal to shift. You just need a momentary break in applied power to shift, bumping the rev limiter will work. You can use the clutch pedal if you want to shift but in a racing application it takes time and therfore affects the ET. You always use the clutch to get the car into 1st gear.
In fact the proper setting of the clutch(s) is the major area of tuning in getting these cars down the track. Actually, our Liberty clutchless is identical to those used by Pro Stock cars and requires shifting under full power. For a split second, it is in two gears on every shift, then the difference in gear ratios causes the lower gear to “spin out” of engagement. As you stated, the clutch is clearly the critical factor in these combinations.
Originally posted by SS454JC:
…As for clutch...I am in your camp. Looked at McLeod but also concerned about unwanted slippage getting on the car in higher gear on the street / highway. …Joe – we ran a McLeod Street Twin for a while. We finally gave up on it, but not because of slippage… we had terrible clutch linkage geometry at the time and were using a hydraulic throw out bearing. In order to get enough air gap to power shift at over 7000 rpm, we kept over extending the hydraulics and letting hydraulic fluid into the bell housing. This resulted in slippage, but not due to any design flaw in the Street Twin.

Hi,

Great replies. Thanks.

Yes.....have heard about Tom's Differentials for heat treating rear ends. Not sure heat treating is appropriate for real street use. If I get into it I will post on Team Chevelle.

Happy Holidays, Joe

Those Dana 60 rear ends are stronger than "bears breath". I have a friend with a Super Stock 427 Camaro that has had one in his car for over 15 years and only had one problem when the pinion nut backed off and ruined the gears but that was not the Dana's fault. It has a 6000 stall converter and a Griner brake in a 400 Turbo so the rear end is an outstanding piece.

Here is the toughest combo I found other than forking out $10K+ on a Liberty or Lenco combo. Get a new M22 (about $1800 with all the upgrades)

http://www.5speeds.com/newm22.html

and bolt on a gear venders O/D unit (about $2200)

http://www.gearvendors.com/index.html

it is about the same price as you would spend with Keisler for a 5 or 6spd

http://www.keislerauto.com/home.html

The M22 is supposed to handle 850lbs of torque and the gv o/d is rated at 1000lbs. That is what I plan to run this combo behind a blown 540.

It sure is hard to believe an M22 will handle 850lb of torque.

The originals had a few weak links, but the new ones have better internals such as roller bearing in place of bushings in the side plates. I also forgot about the Jerico. It is up there in strength with the Lenco/Liberty, but the price is just a bit higher than the M22 w/ od combo.

I stopped doing research when I wimped out and bought a turbo 400 for my back half project. As of a year or so ago Liberty was planning on releasing a prepped Tremec or Richmond they planned on selling for approx 3500.00, that would handle 1000 hp.

This is the same Liberty that builds the pro stock trannys. If you are interested ask for Paul.

Got this back from Lenco;

Hello
The ST1200 style trans will run $4800.00 for a 4 speed and $5800.00 for a 5 speed both prices do come with shifters. This trans is good to 1200 horsepower and works well on the street or the strip.
thank You

I thought they were a lot more than that! I might just go with their 5 speed after all. Nothing looks more wicked in the interior than all those shifters!

http://www.lencoracing.com/st12.html

I know a guy running a lenco st series 5 speed behind a blown/nitrous 347 in a mustang. He drives it all the time. It really does look wicked with all those shifting rods in the console.

I know that he has had problems with the input shaft and the clutch setup. He has been working with Lenco on the issuse. I think the input shaft lenght was the incoorrect lenght for his setup. But they are working it out.

I am debating on getting the 4 speed Jerico or TKO 600 to go behind my 496 in my car also.

This seems to be a very good thread on "pulling the gears" on the street and strip. I hope to hear what more guys have to say...