I'm paper building a 454 right now, and looking for 550-600 HP on a budget of around $5000-6000. This is more goal oriented than budget oriented, but keeping cost to a minimum. It would have to be naturally aspirated, probably high compression, and will stand up to 100 HP spray in the future. Right now I'm getting some ideas together. Looking for mid-10's.

Throw your combo in the hat.

Mid 10's with or without spray?

Without. Wouldn't do that until fully tuned. Chris, this is my Malibu, which will be completely stripped, TH400, back half'd with 31x16.5 M/T tires. I'm trying to develop a plan based on my requirements I've set out. Maybe mid-10's is a little too steep, since I'm not sure what the weight will come out to?

Whay kind of budget are you thinking......

edited above...

Sean,if you built a 468 and ended up with 10.7 to 1 compression,wether You used open chamber or closed chambered oval port heads would depend on what you want or whats available (pistons would be .95-.100 dome w/closed chamber heads or .270+ domes with open chamber heads),2.25 or 2.19 intake/1.88 exhaust,Victor Jr. or RPM,Comp Xtreme solid roller .653/.660 lift, 248/254 @ .050, 286/292 gross, 107 LSA installed on a 107 intake centerline,4500-5000 flash stall,TH400 or TH350,and 4.10 gears,I'm sure you would end up somewhere in the high 10's or better if you have 60 fts. in 1.4X range..I'm not qualified to extrapolate numbers like that..if I had a mid-high 10 second goal,thats the combo I would build.Theres alot more to a particular combo then meets the eye,and theres a lot of other factors involved as well..traction,tuning,driving ability,etc.There are bunch of great guys here on TC that are currently running your goals,and those are the guys you want to step in :cool:
I just thought I add my .02 ;) smile.gif

Looks good, but why such a low compression ratio? This won't be a street machine. Damn roller cams ain't cheap, are they. I have a sneaky suspicion it's going to end up with one, though.

Chris is right on.......

Sean,its not a matter of how high or how low compression,its a matter of what the combo requires to perform at its best IMHO

Here's the approx. cost of the parts I am useing to assemble a 511 cid BBC for my 64 that will easily go mid 10's in a 3100 lb. car. I'm keeping the prices somewhat high to cover shipping etc.

Brodix Heads -2x 1750
Callies " Dragonslayer " Crank 850
JE Pistons & Pins 860
Eagle 6.535 3D Rods 360
Weiand Team G Intake 250
Crane Solid flat tappet w/lifters 200
Rod, Main & Cam bearings 150
ARP Head studs 125
TS File Fit Rings 100
Gaskets 100
Cloyes Timing set 85
---------------------------------------
4830 $

I had a fresh block, carb and ignition and the rest of the parts already. I bought some of the above parts on ebay and by advertising on racingjunk.com what I was looking for and got a couple of great deals. I didnt base all the prices on what I actually paid. Just wanted to list the approx. cost. So it could be done cheaper or cost more depending on what parts you end up buying.

Those combos both sound good for what you're after. That 10.7 compression that Chris mentioned would be plenty considering the iron heads and tight LSA cam. If you went with aluminum heads and a wider LSA cam you'd definitely want to go with higher compression.

Not enough Hp for the tires?

Originally posted by SS_Sean:
Not enough Hp for the tires? :confused:

Revolve your plans around this:

Compression

Please do a search for my great big "tow-truck", 496 motor that is right in there power-wise and really a bargain as far as price goes if you assemble it yourself.

I mention it b/c if a core 454 motor has a bad crank, you can 496" it for not all that much more...

pdq67

Thanks. I dug my 28x10.5" MT ETS's out of storage and slapped em on the rear of the car...and they fit! I was more than shocked at that, since the Malibu rails are so close to the inner fender lip. Scrap the back half. I'm still going to pick up a Battle Cruiser four link and track locator bar for it. Calling Chris Alston in the morning.

I'm scrounging around for a 454 block now. I think my local boneyard has one for me. I'll find out in the morning.

Sean, all I can add is that IF I was racing, and had a 10 second goal, you should use a solid roller. No doubt. Don't scrimp on cam I always say. Ken Jett runs that cam or one similar doesn't he?. Thats a mid 10 car. If I had a race car, I would assuredly went for the rollerized version of the UD cam in the 427. Man, I couldn't imagine another 50 hp at 5000+ WHOA.


Cool. Can't wait to see what you build!

Sean,what is back spacing on those rims? we're building a 454 for a good friend of mine's 1980 Malibu,and that size tire would work great with his 4.10's

Originally posted by mr 4 speed:
Sean,what is back spacing on those rims? I'm building a 454 for a good friend of mine's 1980 Malibu,and that size tire would work great with his 4.10's Summit part #WLD-96-58278
Wheel, 96 ProStar, 15"x8", 5x4.75" Bolt Circle, 4.5" Backspace

Thanks Sean graemlins/thumbsup.gif

You dont need a solid roller to hit your goal, (Depending on final weight), but its a good idea, and while in the planning stages its alot of ET for a little money.


is this car going to be just a roll bar/5 point harness, or full cage, certified type deal?

454 block -$250
049 Heads (redone by my local machinist)- $300
Eagle Stroker Crank- $650
Eagle or LS6 Rods- $350
Piston/rings (SRP)$700
Lunati UD 288/296F10 - $230
Machinework $450
Swapmeet RPM Intake $150
Allstate carb HP 950 $550
Double roller timing chain $90
valve covers and Air cleaner $200

$3920 for ~600hp :cool:

Isn't that the motor in Ol' Blue? That's a price tag I'm talking about!!

SS_ Sean,

Did you do a search for my motor combination??

$38 to $4,000, 9.8 to 1, CC 282S solid cammed, 496. (551hp at 5500rpm and 579t at 4500rpm per D2K!)

Drag says that in a First Gen. car like mine with an M-20 Muncie, 3.31's and about 26" tall tires if she can hook without breaking anything. (130mph at 10.5 sec. in the quarter.)

I know they are sim. programs but heck, it still has to be a heck of a good hp/et/speed/price deal to me!!

She's just my great big, "tow-truck" motor!!!

pdq67

Okay, got a 454 block. The castings are: 361959.....454.......73-90...2 or 4 bolt

The heads are 781's. I talked at length with Brent at Hatch Engine. We talked about a Crower crank, Rod's, and some SRP pistons. Compression would be in the area of 12-13:1, and running a Lunati solid cam (One of Harolds grinds he suggested to me several times):

Solid Great street cam for 9:1 to 11:1 CR , 850, headers, 3.73+ gears. Over 550 HP at 9:1, 600 HP at 10.5:1. Power 3000 to 7000. 288 296 255 263 0.612 0.630 0.36 0.371 110 104 24 BTDC 51 ABDC 67 BBDC 16 ATDC 402A7LUN UF1 UF5

Brent suggested I go with a Merlin oval casting, but due to budget I'm going to have to go with the stock heads worked just like the ones on my 402... 2.25/1.88's, short side runner porting, etc.

How's this sounding for a combination? I think this would be right in the 500-550 HP range.

Block casting is the same as mine...
Those 781's will do you justice..you don't need Merlins
Why the high compression? You'll make an easy 550+ with up to 11 to 1 compression and the right cam,no problem.And you won't need high octane gas..

Well, Brent builds radical race motors and tends to lean heavy on that end of the spectrum. I know he won't steer me wrong in the end, though.

Why wouldn't I run a little more compression? The car isn't going to run on pump gas at 11:1, or 12:1 for that matter. There has to be some pro's and con's there. What are they?

Keep in mind my knowledge level is street motors, they're all I've ever run.

Sean,

Actually the motor in Old Blue is a .030 over 454 with a solid roller and I wheeled and dealed hard on the parts and it cost me $4300.

That 454 you got is the exact same one what I picked up a couple of weeks ago. It will be the aboce listed combo when I am done. Figured a stroker with a solid lift would be my next combo. How's Hatch doing for pricing these days. They tend to be higher than the average local but never had any quality issues that I've heard about. I am ticking with my out-in-the-sticks guy who does a lot of dirt track motors for locals and his prices are on the lower end of the spectrum. They did the current engine in Old Blue and it has never had any issues from their work. they are doing my 540 for the 70 and hopefully it will be out sometime in the next month. They got a couple of roundy-rounds and a Side-oiler 427 to finish first. Can't wait. Good Luck on you new 454 smile.gif

I'm building that combo right now w/10.6ish.
Chris_69_SS runs that combo & claims 10.6 CR.
Can't figure out how his machinist got 10.6 when 11.6 is closer with his parts but...
Chris says his car dyno'd at 610ish and runs 11.30

Your not going to pick up that much ET with another point of compression. Your car is probably lighter though. OR could be.
If you want to run race gas, put a bigger cam in and run 13:1. Why mess around?
Or you could run 10.6 and a 150 shot and do 10's. If you don't mind N20. The roller should get you in the high 10's based on what other people claim.
Here is something similar to what your doing I saw posted a while back.
Similar build up (http://home.hiwaay.net/~ppatter/patrick_budd_article.htm)

And a Crower crank is a lot of money to run with a 288/296 when others are using a stock cast crank.

I don't know if I'd want to spin a stock crank to 7000, though. Also the cam I'm looking at isn't roller, it's mechanical. So, you're suggesting a larger cam with more compression? Gas is bad enough without having to fuel up at the airport! :D

I don't know what weight will work out to, or even what it's at now. I've heard everything from 2,800-3,500 for Malibu's. I am stripping the entire interior, dash, seats, power windows, headliner, carpeting, etc. I'll lose the bumper shock absorbers, gas tank, windshield wipers, inner fenders, blah, blah, blah. I hope to get it below 3,000 to make things a little easier. That should help.

Sean,I know a guy that runs a pump gas 468 in a 3900 lb. car that runs 10.4X's with 10.7 to 1 compression..why would you think you need more? Building the motor is actually the easiest part..the right convertor,tuning,and getting the car to achieve the best 60 ft. is more important than the motor.Making 500-550 HP isn't hard with a 468..heck,someone here duplicated my motor except went with 2.19/1.88 valves,and the motor made 490 HP/525 ft/lbs. tq and thats with a little 223/231 @ .050 flat tappet hydraulic cam..if you build my motor (you would need forged pistons since you're planning to spray it,mine are hypertectics,and you would need either .95 domes or .270 domes depending on open or closed chamber heads)),use the 2.19(or 2.25)/1.88 valves,and the Comp Extreme roller I menioned at the begining of the post would add an easy 50 HP to that 490 HP baseline..and you'd achieve your HP goal without ultra high compression,high dollar parts,or huge cams.I couldn't imagine it if you sprayed it!
:eek: :cool:

EDIT-guess you're all set:
http://www.andersonlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7885

Here's my combo.... 454 2bolt std.cast crank .030 w/L2307 sealed power rings 7/16 rods, arp bolts. Crane solid flat tappet # 131541 304/312-648/669-108-268/276 @.050. Romac balancer,#6464 1050 done by BG. 049 Ovals w/ 2.19-1.88 ported by B.C.H.S 300cfm @.500. Victor "O" 4500. 2inch Hookers, TH350 10inch Fairbanks conv. 4.56 gear 28x11.50 ET Streets. Can't wait to try it! :D

Thanks Chris...we're thinking the same things. :D
I've got several people trying to talk me into more compression, and more cam. It's hard to resist advice like that from my best friend who's very good with motors, but I think I've got the right one. Maybe I should put the question directly to UDHarold and see what he says.
Those guys at MalibuRacing aren't the friendliest bunch. Reminds me of high school clicks on the bus ride home.

GMParts that setup will be a monster!

10.7 comp 288/296f10 would put you right at 8.3 dcr and pump friendly engine!With a little head work 600hp range! graemlins/waving.gif

[Whoops....sorry....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SS_Sean:
[qb] I don't know if I'd want to spin a stock crank to 7000, though. ?? Why not. I did for 30,000 miles so far? You going to drive it 30,000 miles!? Hey, Crowers are top-notch for sure, but......

As said, you can run that buggy on pump if you settle in just under 11:1 with that cam. But if you don't mind the ultra expensive stuff and it's a 1/4 mile machine, well.

Wonder, does spraying a 10.75:1 motor put a significantly different ( different than N/A ) load on the bottom end than a 12.1 motor? Might want to keep the loads on the bottom end reasonable if it does. Bracket cars that run a season or two without breaking stuff don't push the envelope much, right?

Actually, I have nothing to add Sean, just keep bugging in since I'm jealous. Savings goals preclude me from building a drag car right now, so like, I'm living vicariously through you!

THNX Bro'! smile.gif

SS_Sean wrote: Okay, got a 454 block. The castings are: 361959.....454.......73-90...2 or 4 bolt

The heads are 781's. I talked at length with Brent at Hatch Engine. We talked about a Crower crank, Rod's, and some SRP pistons. Compression would be in the area of 12-13:1, and running a Lunati solid cam (One of Harolds grinds he suggested to me several times): Your words, not mine.Don't know where I got the idea you wanted more CR. The high $$ parts backed up the idea. I said more cam to match what you wrote. smile.gif

If you set your heads up for a roller now, all you need to do is swap cams etc later. If you decide you want more.
My impression is that 288/296f10 car shifts around 6600 in a 454. If you go with lite pistons, which you are. And lite rods, this rpm shouldn't be a problem I've been told. Probe as well as others make lite rods. Cheaper than Crower.

A lot of people run stock cast at this level I believe.

goto my site grump1.com under photo's and click on drive train. This was built on a budget over about a year altogether. The most expensive item were the comp springs, and the blower but that came later. Someone wanted 671, so I got a good deal on the 177. Oh Well there ya go.

Spraying a motor can put SIGNIFICANTLY more load on a crank, depending on the RPM you spray it at. If you run a "100 shot". You gain 100 HP at every RPM you spary it at (give or take 10). Figure out how much torque 100 HP is at 2000 RPM and at 5000 RPM. Probably over 200 lb/fts at 2000 and 100 at 5000. That is why nitrous hits so hard and makes so much torue compared to other power adders.

That is also why you don't engage nitrous at low RPM unless you are set up for it.

Come on Gene, we'll make a 3 duece TBI and add nitrous at the same time!