I have a ’72 that I plan to customize and convert to a 4-speed. I have one of the B/W racing Super T-10’s from the 70’s with a nodular main case and nickel gears, 2.88:1 first. Per a couple of experts on this tranny, they’ll handle 650 ft lbs for short bursts and will take 600 ft lbs easily. I’ll also install a fabbed 9” with 3.73’s and aftermarket control arms. Full interior with racing buckets and the rest of the interior will be replacement/factory repros. I’ll also build/buy a dash with aftermarket gauges.
I have all the parts I need to build anything from a hot 427 to a brutal 565 with 725 hp on pump gas at 6000 rpm’s. I don’t plan to race it at the strip but I’m sure I’ll make a few runs for tuning and bragging rights. Flat tappets or rollers, whatever’s lower maintenance, probably hydraulic roller. No drag slicks but may run some street slicks to help with traction. My question is this: how much is waaaay too much? I’ve read that a properly built 454 is more than capable of making plenty for the street, but how much reserve is there? If I want to break ‘em loose at 30 or 40 mph without dropping the clutch, how much tq/hp should I shoot for? I know that hooking anything on the street at this level is pretty much out of the question. This is going to be nothing more than a street toy, midlife crisis sort of thing – never intended as a daily driver, just something to show off and scare an occasional passenger. I’d like to hear from you guys out there with big inch engines – how streetable are they, would you build smaller or bigger if you were going to do it again, etc.

Do a search for a similiar thread that asked "How Much is Enough" from about a year and a half ago. The answers are as diverse as the posting public on this forum. As an old school car / performance enthusiast, I tended to stay very conservative. But I will say, I am always tempted to just say the heck with it and drop for the 600HP mill.

You can always show a little self control and keep your foot out of it, right??

[ Yeah, good ole self control. Works every time. :D

a 632 is probably the pratical limit for most bolt in operations. 10.2 deck: 4.6 x 4.75 bore and stroke.

IMHO, if you want to run a clutch car and not go "all the way" ( Lenco, steel clutches, etc), but stay in the 11-12 second range, you don't build a brutal torque machine. You build a HP-based motor and gear it up some.

A buddies 509 waxed his ST-10. Dyno unknown, but it wasn't a brutal motor. Heck, Old Red out mph'd him. All that 'stump pulling' torque isn't too hot on the driveline under a clutch scenario.

I'd stay around 500 lbs ft with any stock, or mild aftermarket ( like my Richie 5) tranny. You're just asking for trouble loading more on, and then racing on slicks, imho. And then a real long dollar for a clutch/trans setup for anything over 600, taking it to the "all the way' level.

Build a high stepping 427 for that ST-10. Give it plenty of gear and it should respond exceptionally well, and with peak torque north of 4K, you'll still run strong and not bust too many things. Maybe. smile.gif

To do it again, I'd cam the motor up some more, a bit more gear, shft at 7200 rpms. ;) OR, for a differnt flavor, a mild 496, but I would not build an 11:1 454+, to do an honest 575+ hp and run it with a stick hard. My opinion only. Do what you MUST!

Gene,

You and I are riding the same wave on this. Each guy can do his own thing, but I have also found that a healthy stick car (JMHO) needs to be wound out well past 6K or the car just doesn't seem to move. Last stick car had only a warm 454 LS5 based motor. Great for burning tires, but you literally couldn't shift it fast enough to keep the car moving. Around town felt like the motor rev'd, but the car never went any faster down the road. Maybe the low 2.88 gear trans and a higher rear would make a difference - what's the spread on that trans? One thing I do know, I will never put together a torque motor and a 2.20 M22 box in the same car. Talk about a physical waste of energy changing gears.

Give me time to duck before you start throwing the rotten tomotoes, but a nice solid cam (make it a solid roller at that) along with that tranny will be a blast. At the other extreme, a fat 632 with a glide will throw that Chevy all over the street.

I went through the same dilemma about a year and a half ago. I went big motor (540), also in a mostly street car and dont regret it at all. I'd rather have too much h.p. than not enough! Thats one way to look at it.

when your talking big big engines, such as 588-648 cubes, your best option is to go with hardcore heads and intake, such as Big Cheifs, Big Dukes, or Pro Filers. A standard BBC head would give up too much horsepower, and have tiny ports for a 600+ inch engine. So the cost factor has to really be considered in that manor. Also you will need to run a big cam so you have an engine usable over more than 5000 rpm. Big engines need big parts.

With that said, I think 572-580 is the biggest I'd consider going with a standard BBC head like the AFR 357s, or another larger port cylinder head.

I get the impression that a stick is more fun with a hp motor than one built for torque - seems to be exactly the opposite of what it takes to move a Chevelle with an auto. I have a squirrely combo available - 3.766 stroke crank in a 4.600 bore. Compression with angle middled Pro Topline 320's is 9.9:1. How's about that with a moderate solid roller and this tranny? 500 cubes, equivalent of a stock 427 bored +.350. That would give me the inches and the hp engine. Whaddaya think?

I think MyBoTy is about on target. Too much torque and you can kiss that tranny goodby. I had a stock LS-6 type motor in a Camaro and above 2500 RPM the street tires would just start spinning and the car wouldn't hardly move. The shorter 3.76 stroke and a bigger bore would work good. It mainly depends on the block and the budget. If you stay in the 440" - 481" inch range use a good flat tappet cam. The Hydraulic Rollers don't usually RPM well because the valvetrain is heavy. A 481 usually does everything well but a little more power can be had with a 502 - 509. By the way, a 481" can easily make 650-700 H.P. but anymore that won't go very far as there are a few 800+ H.P. motors cruising. I'd use the Brobix RR BB-0 heads to make it more streetable and take off a few pounds.

That T-10 isn't going to last long on any big block with slicks or Quick time pros. If your going to go with a four speed go with jerico, and I can't promise you that the jerico isn't going to break, however; changing a broken gear is as easy as sliding the broken gears off the counter cluster and mainshaft. You can't do that with a T-10 because the counter cluster is one big weak assembly, expensive too. Cubes wise, a 540 is a good program with a mark VI block and a scat H beam rods and 4340 crank rotating assembly. Use a set of 990 rec port heads or for a little more a set of canfields with 315 ports and you'll do great with a 11:1 street motor with some kemco genuine authentic, enviromently unfriendly TEL to get your octane to 98-100 for about .50cent added to 91. A cam like mine would be sweet if you want to go roller, which is a .660 lift with 256 at .050 and 264 on the exhaust at .050 on a 110 lobe sep. I would say go with a 588 but the scat crank for that is twice the price of the 540.
I'm the only guy on this board running a High HP big block that makes about 700 hp, and runs a stick (jerico), so I'll keep everyone posted on the carnage so long as the VA covers post OIF/OEF schrapnal wounds(If I'm still alive). I'm going to have allot of fun.
And then comes the fogger!

MyBoTy AHHH my dream engine, sure buddy, SR lifting .660 or so ( for street use) 253-256/256-260@.050 duration is all and as tight as you'd care to take that LSA, 108-110. You might take those duration numbers up a freckle, since I don;t speak from exprience at that c.i. level. Don't advance the bump stick too much adn keeep the lash nice and tight. But too big duration at 9.9:1, and you'll be fighting with lack of cylinder pressure, even at 6800 rpms. Spin her right on up to 6500+, no problemo. Run a 7K or 7.2K rev chip is all.

Squirrly??No way man, HAIRY!!! WAY HAIRY!!! Hook it up and break sumtin'!

That pushes the limit of any "less-than-hardcore" manual trans setup. Use 1350 yokes on the driveshaft. Don't even think the 1310s will hold. They're having a hard time with my little 427.

Yeah stanbach, be careful I'd don;t have many heros, and you hard core stick guys are usually among them. Check out that 9 second Chevelle running adn winning Pure Street (?) last year with a No2 sniffing rat and a Jerico ( I think it was a Jerico, or better)?? WHOA NELLIE!

Kstanbach,
We dont want to lose you. Please wear your flak jacket!!

kstanbach, Your not the only one here that has a 700+ horsepower big block with a stick. Jim Moore of Houston has a '67 Marina Blue Corvette Convertible with a five speed that runs very low 10s @ 139+ MPH with small slicks. Goes by the name of "540 HotRod". I think i got that right.

LOL, I still have my Interceptor body armor from Iraqiwait, and it's good I'm not the only guy dodging exploding transmission parts, and flying driveshafts. L88, I totally forgot about the pump gas drags and the guy with the white chevelle. I think he was running a liberty 5 speed though.

Actually, I believe it was a G-force. I talked to him briefly at the Super Chevy Show at Maple Grove last summer.

Originally posted by kstanbach:
That T-10 isn't going to last long on any big block with slicks or Quick time pros. If your going to go with a four speed go with jerico, and I can't promise you that the jerico isn't going to break, however; changing a broken gear is as easy as sliding the broken gears off the counter cluster and mainshaft. You can't do that with a T-10 because the counter cluster is one big weak assembly, expensive too. Cubes wise, a 540 is a good program with a mark VI block and a scat H beam rods and 4340 crank rotating assembly. Use a set of 990 rec port heads or for a little more a set of canfields with 315 ports and you'll do great with a 11:1 street motor with some kemco genuine authentic, enviromently unfriendly TEL to get your octane to 98-100 for about .50cent added to 91. A cam like mine would be sweet if you want to go roller, which is a .660 lift with 256 at .050 and 264 on the exhaust at .050 on a 110 lobe sep. I would say go with a 588 but the scat crank for that is twice the price of the 540.
I'm the only guy on this board running a High HP big block that makes about 700 hp, and runs a stick (jerico), so I'll keep everyone posted on the carnage so long as the VA covers post OIF/OEF schrapnal wounds(If I'm still alive). I'm going to have allot of fun.
And then comes the fogger! I am running a T-56 six speed no problems as of yet. Limited traction M/T Sportsman's. As per dyno 600+ lbft 2-6k rpm. And I would say go with all you can afford because you'll always want more. The exception is I would like to build and aluminum big bore short stroke combo that has twin turbos on pump gas.

Those don't count. No, jk, Those things are very strong and I believe it has to do with the distance between the counter cluster and the mainshaft, but I'm not sure. I know they do very well in vipers.

On the other hand, I could just shelve the stick for a future project and put an 11:1 565 together and try to get it to the ground with a built TH-400. A ProStick would have to take the place of the stick shifter, but they have a WOW factor all their own. These Pro Topline heads flow just a shade less than the Dart Pro 1 345's, so they should be the hot ticket for major torque. I've watched several pump gas 555 dyno pulls with hydraulic rollers do 735hp with 675+ tq. Dyno run stops at 6K but most I've seen have hp max right there and it's still climbing. My machinist said that with the Dart block and taller lifters they use, you generally hit valve float before 6500, so they save the wear, tear and damage by shutting it down well short. Put a moderate street solid roller in with lift at .675 or less and you'd be packing a solid 775, pump gas, 800 might be possible with tuning.
I've known folks with cars too powerful to safely drive around town in the rain. This one might have to stay parked if it's even cloudy :D

Wouldn't you put a Glide behind a motor like that?

Glides are it for racing but I think a 400 would be better for the street. The only glide I have is a purpose built race only model and it's waiting for me to finish my '71 Nova project. It'll have a 555 but with a much more agressive cam and about 15:1 compression. The block for this project is one that I rescued from the scrap heap after it broke an aluminum rod. Scored up 2 bores pretty bad, but I had them sleeved and it's good to go. 4.600, sonic checked at .310 for the thinnest bore on the thrust side. I'd say it should be able to take anything I can throw at it.
Reckon how much coordination it takes to handle 750+ hp on the street with a stick? I don't know how good of a job I can do with an accelerator pedal and a steering wheel, much less with an extra pedal and stick thrown in the mix! I have a 'vette with a small block stroker and 4-speed and it's all I can handle at times - that's why I'm even considering an auto.

Not much cordination. When you stab the throttle, turn left, and then right, and then left a little bit. If you follow these directions correctly, your car will track straight, and if you don't, you will end up up side down, lol. I'm joking, don't take me seriously.

Originally posted by 69 Ratt Vette:
a 632 is probably the pratical limit for most bolt in operations. 10.2 deck: 4.6 x 4.75 bore and stroke. Is this really the limit for a BBC? 632 cu. in.?

A few years back a few Europeans came over with there cars for the Street Car Shootouts, I thought I remember 1 of their cars having a 750 cu. in. motor, although I don't know if it was a BBC or some other make? I know it was juiced and running in the 6's!

I think 632 ish is about the limit for a 10.2 inch block. There are a few blocks out there with 11.5+ inch deck heights including a new one from dart that came out a few months ago. but fitting something that tall into a car that's not a tube chassis deal can be pretty annoying.

Originally posted by Yellow77:
I think 632 ish is about the limit for a 10.2 inch block. There are a few blocks out there with 11.5+ inch deck heights including a new one from dart that came out a few months ago. but fitting something that tall into a car that's not a tube chassis deal can be pretty annoying. You can go up to 640 in. + or - a little depending on sonic checks and whether or not you fill the block. If you go to the 11.6 decks you can go way into the 700's but everything on the motors cost a bunch and they are very hard on themselves, bearings, etc.

Harder to fit and

Those 11.6 dart blocks will go all the way out to 4.7 right? I wonder how far past that you could actually go.

I see at the Donovan Engineering site, they have a block and state it can be taken to 750 cu.in.
4.8" bore???

http://www.donovanengineering.com/Blocks/HC700BigBlock.html

Originally posted by wayner:
I see at the Donovan Engineering site, they have a block and state it can be taken to 750 cu.in.
4.8" bore???

http://www.donovanengineering.com/Blocks/HC700BigBlock.html man, anyone got a credit card number i can borrow for a bit?

They don't even mention the max. cubes the HC800 will go too, but it has 5" bores!!!!!

My credit card number won't help with their prices, maybe a 2nd mortgage???

4.84" and 5" bore spacing. A 5" bore would be nuts. As it is the max cubes would be maybe 815 ish. I wonder how those 800"+ setups do with boost of any kind?

800" and boost.....oooooooooooo......Duff beer. lol

The biggest I've seen or heard of is 813 cubes, one of the guys that run in the Outlaw big tire class at our local shootouts runs it. He don't need no nawwwwwwwwwwwwws :D

Originally posted by Yellow77:
Those 11.6 dart blocks will go all the way out to 4.7 right? I wonder how far past that you could actually go. 4.625" max in the 4.84 bore center blocks. They can accomodate up to 5.850" stroke I believe. (~785)

Other than needing to make your own headers, the merlin superblock wouldn't be that big a deal to fit in a stock chassis (just intake spacers, a longer jesel belt for the raised cam, and ridiculously long pushrods). The big cost break is when you go to bigger bore centers because nothing over the counter fits anymore. Different camshaft, crankshaft, heads, valvetrain, etc etc.

I am shopping for a block right now and am torn between a 10.2 deck and a 11.625" deck. The alum blocks cost the same.

If I go with the 10.2 with wide pan rails I can still put a 5" stroke in it if I don't plan to take it over 7000 (665 cubes). Maybe I should go with 10.4 or 10.7 deck because my headers would still fit and I could run a longer rod. decisions decisions!

I'm surprised they don't raise the cam bore to equal the 9.8 or 10.2. Long pushrods don't sound good for valvetrain harmonics. Of course, it's not likely you are going to rev a 5 inch stroke motor that high anyway.

They raise the cam .400" for clearance from the crank.

Big chief pushrods are already around 10.5 to 11" so what's another inch?

They take 5.300" stroke engines well past 7000, but I wouldn't do it with a short rod in a 10.2 block and 5" stroke.

http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/ssr_96.htm

They took their 760 cube engine to almost 8000 on the dyno but it made peak power at 7100. 1540hp LOL.

Their 705 made peak power around 7000 also and that'a 5.300" stroke in a 11.625 deck (so about 7.7" rod).

I thought it was interesting that their power was still increasing at 7600 on their 632.

So what do you think about boost, Ryan? I've been trying to hatch the ultimate pump gas setup and figured huge cubes and boost would be the way to go. But past that i don't really know how it would work because i've never built anything bigger than a 468. So maybe two turbos on something in the 750 area? Obviously there are tons of factors but you wanna take a stab at how much power it'd do? One of the problems in my mind would be maybe only getting to run 15 psi and then you'd be way out of the efficiency range of a big turbo like that. But I'd also guess that a 750+ inch motor would spool a pair of 101's without even thinking about it so i don't know if you'd just want to go with smaller turbos or what. Or just put a blower on it and keep it underdriven?

yellow77, that sounds a bit extreme - they are making 2000hp with 300 cubes with twin turbos, the biggest turbo engine that I know of is Doug Holmes chevelle. 604 I think with twin 88's. He makes over 2000hp easily, dependably, but others make that power with a lot less stroke. Even if you put two 101's on a big inch engine, it would make so much unuseable power that nobody could drive it.

I am the furthest thing from turbo expert but I was less than impressed with the competition in the pump gas drags. Some of the engines were no expense spared and tuned by professionals like Jobe Spetter etc and they made 25% less horsepower than my cubic inch and nitrous combination.

There is no arguing that turbos are the superior power adder - on unlimited fuel, but I'm not so sure about that when you drop the octane and take the water/air intercooler away. If I were to build a turbo motor I would go 509 or 540 cubes with my big chief heads and either a single 106 or two 88's.

You switched to Big Chief heads, from the Big Dukes?

There is a guy here in our area that has a 433" Rat with Turbos. It makes over 1900 H.P. at that size and it is very hard to hook up. He gets down the track about one out of three times on the 10.5" tire limit we have. Best time is about 7.70 @ 182 MPH. It seems to be a crap shoot every pass. Goes fast or blows the tires off, roll the dice. I think a bigger motor would just increase the traction problem.

big chief, big duke, close enough LOL. I'm running the same heads but I need to get some exhaust valves that aren't bent.

Originally posted by 66 283:
yellow77, that sounds a bit extreme - they are making 2000hp with 300 cubes with twin turbos, the biggest turbo engine that I know of is Doug Holmes chevelle. 604 I think with twin 88's. He makes over 2000hp easily, dependably, but others make that power with a lot less stroke. Even if you put two 101's on a big inch engine, it would make so much unuseable power that nobody could drive it. Bah. Too much power!!! graemlins/sad.gif Well, i'd certainly agree that there comes a point where more power isn't going to get you down the track any faster. But i was also thinking in terms of something that would be streetable in the sense that you could drive it from Omaha to KC to go to the track and then drive it home without fear of hurting it. So... maybe if you put together a 750 inch engine that made maybe 825 horse n/a that seems reasonable. 1.1 hp/cube is easily done reliably. And then add a blower or two turbos running a properly tuned 12 pounds or something and you might make, what, 1300 horse? But i guess at that point you could have bought yourself a decent house for the money you have in the setup and all you've got is 1300 horse. Or maybe you could make a lot more with a blower? I want something that runs 8's and i can drive it around town and fill it up w/ 92. Maybe i just need to learn to be a nitrous tuning guru.

It is retarded to make a 750 inch engine that makes 825hp. You can do that for half the money with a 540.

And 750 inches no matter how you cut it is not reliable. The big stroke is really hard on bearings and piston velocities are ridiculous. There is a reason you don't see anyone running steel rods in those motors - either aluminum or titanium.

Second, it is an absolute waste to run a conventional head on anything over 600 inches because you will make almost no incremental power for the extra cubes. You will need a symmetrical port head, and a lot of camshaft (280+ @ .050" and well into the 800's of lift.) You can make it live with occasional street use but it is high maintenance.

A single turbo on a small block can make your 1300hp so you are making this harder and more expensive than it needs to be LOL.

Hmmm.. maybe i'll get started on this sooner than i had hoped. Guess i still have two other cars to finish first, though. graemlins/clonk.gif Thanks for helping me talk some of this through.

To me the way to do it on a 10.5" tire, is to build a moderately sized BBC with a Centri blower. Boost tailored so that does not become efficient until 6K or so. Combine that with a 2 speed tranny and moderate gearing in the rear. That would get you out of the hole in a controlled manner, and the power would progressively increase (hopefully linearly) so that you could modulate the throttle going down the track.

Who wants linear power...some people just want to be able to blow off the tires from a 100mph roll.

Nah bin dere done that.

I had that ability and I think I would prefer more controllable power next time. I would have to get more power to make up for boring drive.

Twin turbos?

So, 66 283, how much is enough for the street - 4-speed car, solid roller is fine since I'm not planning to go nuts with lift or spring pressure? 500hp? 600hp? More? I want a car that'll break 'em loose at 30 with nothing more than an accelerator stomp, run 11's at the strip and sound radical enough to turn heads when I cruise. I sure don't want to get myself killed by something that has more grunt than anyone could hope to handle on the street, but I don't want to regret not making enough, either. Sounds like you're not for the 565 that I could do. It sounds cool but would be some kinda dangerous and tricky to handle on the street. Can I get there reliably with a 454 based engine or would more cubes and/or revs be better suited to my goals? Anyone else chime in here that has had an engine that was more than they cared to run on the street or who has what they consider to be just the right amount of power.

That is for only you to determine - I know nothing about the strength of your transmission and the most important thing - exactly how much you plan to drive the car and how much, what your tolerance for maintenance is, etc.

personally, once you have 1000+ hp it's hard to make yourself have any less.

For the amount of street driving I do with my car, I have no problems with my 632. You really need to keep an eye on the springs and make sure to change the lifters every season whether you want to or not, other than that it drove fine, but it comes down to your tolerance for a wild engine. The real problem is with big chief heads the valves and valvetrain in general is very heavy (2.400 and 1.900" valves at around 6.5" long and 11" pushrods!) so if you try to run SS valves they will float at about 6000-6500 even with good triple springs. The upgrade to Ti valves is very expensive, as much as $100 per valve, and spring pressures must be around 340 seat and 900 open. Those don't last forever on the street and you have to catch them before it's too late!

540, 565, or 572 is a really good choice in my opinion, you can run a conventional head and still make 800-900hp on pump gas, put a reasonably camshaft in it and it will be easy on parts. I wouldn't drive it across the country, but if you wanted to you could run even less camshaft, drop the power and you could do that too.

A really fun one would be a 540 with a procharger. You could set it up so you could drive it anywhere and dial up as much power as you want! I have a friend building that combination for the PGD's so if he gets in you will see what it is capable of (1200+ horsepower at the tires on pump gas). You would do that with such a small cam that you could set the lash and forget it for a season at a time.

Make as much power as you can afford and then when you break the 4-speed put a TH400 and then you are good to at least 1200hp or so with virtually stock parts!

graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by MyBoTy:
Topic: Big Inch Engines: Where Do You Stop? When the money runs out. :D