Ok, a bit of a rant here. I have a Auto Gear M22 that I bought from a member here. I got a great deal from him. I actually feel bad knowing what he spent and the trouble he went through. It seems there is a lack of support as well as actually getting blamed for the leak problems. I would advise anyone considering a total aftermarket trans to steer away. I think I'm gonna end up using a stock case and ebay the autoleak case. I know the gear set is fine as well as the sliders, forks, etc so I should be ok there.

My transmission appears to be leaking from the vent that was installed in the mid plate as well as the seal around the reverse shift lever. I was running Royal Purple gear oil in it and thank god I put it up on the lift tonight and checked. I leaked out 1/2 quart of oil in less than 100 miles. I changed to regular Valvoline gear oil...leaks worse. I drove it home from my buddy's shop and after I parked it in the garage, 2 inch puddle. It's so nice to have my newly completed frame off done only to stain my new exhaust and oil down the bottom of the car. If you want a leak-free trans stay away. From what I can tell it is durable but you'll be putting oil in it once a week.

Dave

Sounds frustrating. Is this a typical problem? Is there a fix?

My fix is gonna be to get rid of their case. From what I have been told they redesigned the front bearing, used a sealed unit. The guy I got it from had issues with it leaking out of the rear seal and shift levers. He sent it back to the builder who installed a vent in the midplate. He was told that running the fluid level with the fill plug is too much, 1 quart of fluid will put the level 1/2 inch below the fill plug. I tried that...no go. I think the solution is gonna be to change the case. I'm gonna put the M21 that I totally rebuilt back into my car for now...it didn't leak at all.

Dave

I'm guessing this is an Autogear case? I have two of them and neither leaks a drop,my buddy also has one in his '69 ElCamino that doesn't leak. I always put a little rtv or anarobic sealer where the countershaft hole is in the front of the trans. and bolt it up to the bellhousing.

It's not leaking out of the countershaft, it is blowing out of the vent on the top and out of the reverse shift lever. I don't know if this one is defective or an early one...whatever but I'm about to pull my hair out.

It's not leaking out of the countershaft, it is blowing out of the vent on the top and out of the reverse shift lever. I don't know if this one is defective or an early one...whatever but I'm about to pull my hair out.

Why is there a vent in the midplate? If it is a standard feature of the Autogear plate then I guess the builder messed up the install of the vent but ya cannot hang that mess up on Autogear. I don't recall one in a stock Muncie and perhaps the Autogear plate does come with one. Does Autogear install the vent on all midplates?

As I read this it seems that the "builder" installed the vent in the midplate. If so and if the "builder" is not Autogear and the vent is non Autogear standard then how do you reconcile blaiming Autogear for a leak in a modification / repair to their product that they did not do? Seems to me, if I read this correctly, that somebody modified / repaired the transmission to install the vent. At minimum somebody other than Autogear worked on the vent in your midplate. Even if the vent is a standard Autogear feature we have a builder of unknown skill working on the product. You now advise against Autogear products because the Autogear midplate leaks with thru a vent that Autogear did not work on and possibly something that Autogear did not even incorporate originally.

If I have this correctly your recommendation to not consider Autogear is just not logical. Seems to me that Autogear saying that the leak is your fault (your fault meaning that it is the builders fault) might be correct. Lastly you knew the thing leaked when you got it. If you knew that the "builder" was a non Autogear guy and you still blame Autogear then I tink you need to bone up on what Caveate Emptor means

since you've already got the tranny, can you install some sort of resivoir on the vent tube? Is there a o ring or seal on the reverse shaft? If its blowing out of the midplate, it sounds like theres some pressure building up when it gets hot. can you put a vent somewhere else? jim

Hate to hear you go thru the trouble Dave, But my M22W is flawless after 800 miles. It now shifts smooth and NO leaks at all. Very happy with it. I decided on no vent on my build. And synthetic oil is a no, no..

Hate to hear you go thru the trouble Dave, But my M22W is flawless after 800 miles. It now shifts smooth and NO leaks at all. Very happy with it. I decided on no vent on my build. And synthetic oil is a no, no..

Rich, you say yours now shifts smooth. Was it not smooth at first?

Rich, you say yours now shifts smooth. Was it not smooth at first?

Brand new transmission needs breakin on syncros or what ever. Stiff shifting at first and and during break in period (500 miles) it started smoothing out as was explained before I had the tranny built.

Using an Autogear Super Case with a non-vented midplate: You MUST remove the front bearing inner and outer seals from the wide 307 bearing.

If the builder installed an after thought vent, was it installed properly?

Here is a test you can try:

Before you remove the transmission from your vehicle, remove the driveshaft/yoke completely out of the transmission. Re-install the driveshaft/yoke and take note if air is forced out of the vent. If the vent was properly installed, you will easily hear it escaping the vent.

Good luck..............

Thanks Jody...your solution is along the lines of what I was thinking. I was going to first try changing the front bearing to the original style. I was unaware that I could remove the inner and outer seals from it but that sounds like a good idea. I removed the transmission when I got home at 4pm tonight and put the M21 that I built back in the car and was at the cruise in by 7ish. I had never driven the car with the M21 and when I rebuilt it I used new power torque sliders as well as new shift forks and every other part inside is new except the gears. I must say that my M21 embaresses the Autogear trans. My M21 trans shifts smooth and easy and guess what? No leaks. I have heard about synthetic oil being a no-no but I can't see why. It's too slick? Royal purple is rated GL3,4,5. There is no way it causes leaks, if so why doesn't my Silverado SS leak oil everywhere as I run synthetic in it? I guess I'll get this worked out, thanks for the suggestion Jody, you would think that the guy who built this thing would have known about the front bearing deal.

Dave

Let'a talk about the vent, developed when the circle track guys wanted a sealed front bearing retainer. When they go hard into a corner and stand on the brakes the oil was running out the nose of the trans. The sealed front bearing and the sealed front bearing retainer made it necessary to put some sort of vent in the trans.

A stock muncie vent out the input, the hole drilled where the gland nut goes. It vents into the front bearing retainer and any oil that may go out there is returned via that small hole in the case under the retainer. Some pressure escapes out the open front bearing as well. Big pressure is not normally a problem on a muncie, stock or after market.

You got to wonder what the hell is going on, the vent is dead in the top of the mid plate. The shift shaft leak makes no sense, is it a new extension housing or a used one?????

The only reason they leak is a bad seal or a crack.

Just so you know there was a bad run of mid plates, machined wrong that leaked.

Wally has brought up a good point and I have done this a few times by mistake........

If you bottom out a shift shaft seal too hard on a sidecover or tail extension housing, it may cause the rubber seal to expand in diameter. Then there is a small to no interference fit between the rubber seal and the shift shafts. This will surely cause a leak.

Now I always install my shift shaft seals flush with the top of the aluminum bosses.

When I took the trans out you can clearly see the fluid trail from the vent. It looks like the reverse shift shaft seal was a little crooked. As far as revealing the builder or contacting them I don't really wanna drag anyone thru the mud since I got a great deal on the trans and I'm sure the leaking can be fixed. Can I just change the input bearing to a original Muncie style? I have no clue why it would be blowing fluid out but I don't really see paying someone to fix it when I am sure I can do it with a little direction from the kind folks around here...I did build the Muncie that's in my car right now as well as several others so I know my way around them a little bit.

Dave

When I took the trans out you can clearly see the fluid trail from the vent. It looks like the reverse shift shaft seal was a little crooked. As far as revealing the builder or contacting them I don't really wanna drag anyone thru the mud since I got a great deal on the trans and I'm sure the leaking can be fixed. Can I just change the input bearing to a original Muncie style? I have no clue why it would be blowing fluid out but I don't really see paying someone to fix it when I am sure I can do it with a little direction from the kind folks around here...I did build the Muncie that's in my car right now as well as several others so I know my way around them a little bit.

Dave

Yes, there is a wide bearing used in a super case that is not sealed.

Why aren't you using 80w90 gear oil like your suppose to in a Muncie?

What 80W90 is rated for GL3 and GL4 but not GL5? I upgraded to a better gear oil not to mention the fact that I run 10W40 in my Silverado SS with a supercharger not the 5W30 that is recommended and guess what no leaks. That is BS and you know what else is BS? People F-ing with the title to my thread.

I'd be interested to know if the non-sealed bearing solves the prob. Please let us know if it does. I remember this trans from a few years ago.

I have no leaks or problems with my m22w. broke the stock tail houshing. What do you expect with a big block and a pro charger. Maybe u should get a new builder

BOWTIE700SS/Dave,you can get CRC's 80w-90 thats GL3/GL-4 only and not GL5 from Napa store on napa online and at other online stores too,being GL-4 only it's safer for the older muncies with yellow bronze/brass metal type syncro's .

Also,Quaker State/Pennzoil and others still mfg GL4 only 80-90 lube but it has to be special orederd. Thats because many manual trans mfg over 10 yrs + are designed to use much thinner lower viscosity lubes and the stores simply dont stock the older GL4 only lube anymore becasue most trans/rears req gl5 80-90 lube and the gl-4 collect dust. They stock the 80-90 GL-5 mostly for rear ends and it backwords compatible for GL-4 only applications thats usally not an issue. But it's the older muncies with yellow metal syncro's that the gl-5 additive can slowly corrode/attack over a ong period of time that's the problem according to the info from the oil eng's (not me)at redline/quaker state/pennzoil,its on this site/s so check it out. Running gl5 80-90 in a muncie doesnt damage it right off the bat,its just over a long period of time the that the chemical additive in the gl5 lube slowly attacks/corrodes the yellow bronze/brass type metal of the syncro's ,other then that the gl-5 is fine in a muncie.

BTW,the reason why the newer gen manual trans mfg today in import/US cars are stated to use ATF & or motor oil is becausee they are specifically desinged to to use them and the 40yr old muncies were not designed to use such thinner oil.

And to add to that dont accidentially use the pennzoil lube called "syncromesh" that has no oil weight/visc listed on the bottle,its a much thinner lube theN 80w-90 and it's specifically designed for the newer manual trans mfg today and it's not suited four our older muncies.

Lastly,Redline mfg's a fully syn lube specifically designed for older gen manual trans like our older mucnies,its called redline MTL(75w-90?) ot MTL90 (85w-90?). I tried the slightly heavier MT90 in an m20 thats been in my car for over 30yrs and it worked fine. But in that older trans thats never been rblt likely being a little loose fro wear the trans made a little noise when hot ,nothing bad but noticable in 1-3rd gears but no noise when in 4th.Other then that it was fine but i changed it to the crc sta-lue gl-4 80w-90 and things went back to normal being basically quiet.

Scott

I have a few FACTS here now. I spoke to George the head engineer at Autogear. It seems that the builder of my M22w installed a vent in the LH (drivers's side) rear of the main case(on top). Not only should the vent have been installed in the midplate but it should have been horizontal instead of vertical. I have been told the sealed bearings are superior as far as durability so that's why they used them. Autogear copied GM's original midplate which turned out to be an inferior design. A redo of the steel midplate is due out around September so I agreed to wait until then and I will get my hands on one of the first ones.

So as it turns out I am right to complain because the design was defective AND the builder took the "easy" way of installing the vent. I informed them who built it...no comment.

George also educated me as to why NOT to use synthetic. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with leaks. It has everything to do with being too slick. If a gear oil is too slick it does not allow the synchros to "bite" into the engage teeth on the gears thereby causing missed shifts and worse. George told me he had a drag racer who used synthetic brand X and could not get his trans in gear with the engine running. Worse yet remember the old Castrol Syntec commercials where they ran engines without oil? Seems that's pretty true and once you run a slick synthetic you may end up having to wash the trans with solvent to rid it of the lubrication provided. Also the aforementioned tendancy of GL5 to eat yellow metals.

So this will be an ongoing saga until September when I get the first midplate. I did discover the messed up seal on the reverse shift shaft so I'll fix that too. All along the vent should have been installed in the midplate not the main case. Do yourself a favor get your trans from Autogear if you're gonna buy one.

Dave

Dave sorry to hear about all the hastles you have had with that new trans,what frigging PIA that must have been and still is.

Anyway,the new red line syn made for mucnies has the correct amount of friction designed in to into it to ensure proper syncro operation because that was a known issue with syn in the mucnies and why they/Redline engineers specifically addressed that situation with their new MTL & MTL90 full syn lube for older trans like muncies. Check out the redline site because it has a nice wrieup on that newer gen syn lube and what they did to make it work with an older man trans like a muncie.

Leaking/seaping can acutally be an issue at times with syn lube in an older muncie trans.

I personally drained std lube from a couple non leaking or seeping mucnies in cusomers cars that wanted to try the syn lube and after the syn lube was in for a while the non leaking or seeping transmissions started to seep just a little bit but nothing horrible and no real leaks either,just enough to pick up some dust/dirt,but no drips.

From what i understand it has to do with the smaller molecular structure of the syn oil that makes it alittle more prone to leaking,gee maybe they should put a little seal swell in the syn lube for the muncies to sotp any chance to seep/leak if it wont interfear with proper lubebrication .

But i drove the muncies with the newly desinged reline lube and there were no shifting issues at all. I also tried that lube in my m20 for 1 season and it had no shifting issues either so they must have gotten the firction correct for the syncros . But it was slightly noisier in 1st-3rd gears but not in 4th gear,thats was the only neg thing i noticed if it was neg at all. But after 1 yr i went back to CRC's Sta-Lube GL-4 80w-90 man trans lube and the trans quieted back down a smidge to its normall self and thats how its going to stay.

But a few guys here in t/chevelle have been running the Redline full syn MTL or MTL90 lube in thier muncies for 2-3 yrs now with no issues at all so just maybe redline got it right. I know it's hard to break old habbits but maybe Redlines full syn lube really is ok for the muncies ,it seems ok so far.

Scott

I have heard good stuff about that Redline oil. That is gonna be my next move but for now I have a expensive paper weight until September. George at Autogear could not have been more helpful. He gave me real answers and no BS as far as blaming me or the original buyer for the problems. Seems like Autogear has top notch tech support when their head engineer takes time out to speak to you.

Dave

Did George say just what is changing on the midplate? Just curious what was "inferior" about the GM design?

I have a few FACTS here now. I spoke to George the head engineer at Autogear. It seems that the builder of my M22w installed a vent in the... main case(on top). Not only should the vent have been installed in the midplate but it should have been horizontal instead of vertical.
Autogear copied GM's original midplate which turned out to be an inferior design. A redo of the steel midplate is due out around September so I agreed to wait until then and I will get my hands on one of the first ones.

So as it turns out I am right to complain because the design was defective AND the builder took the "easy" way of installing the vent . I informed them who built it...no comment.


That "no comment" statement, does that mean that Autogear has had problems with that "builder" before?

You didn't state if the "inferior midplate design" had ANYTHING to do with the leakage?
I doubt it did, because you also stated that the midplate design was copied from GM's inferior design (yet originals don't usually leak), so I assume the "inferior" design is not a leakage issue, maybe a strength/thrust issue? And therefore, it seems the entire blame of the leak would be on the builder (incorrect vent location and orientation, as well as crooked seals?)...

Therefore you were incorrect to complain about Autogear (and drag THEIR name "through the mud"), but amazingly you won't divulge the name of the builder, whom it seems IS responsible for the leak you originally complained about... :sad:

Please give credit where credit is due... At least you gave kind of a recommendation about Autogear in the end...


I did discover the messed up seal on the reverse shift shaft so I'll fix that too. All along the vent should have been installed in the midplate not the main case. Do yourself a favor get your trans from Autogear if you're gonna buy one.

So for now, you are content with the AutoGear product?

you would think that the guy who built this thing would have known about the front bearing deal.

We all have many choices for "builders", but unless the builder is a TC member, IMO you should let the rest of us know so we can use that as info for decisions we might someday make... I want someone that knows what they are doing (by experience or training) or someone that will call the manufacturer (or call others) and ask questions if they don't know the answers... Rather than "it needs a vent, I'll put it here"... Anyone can assemble a transmission, but not everyone will do it correctly...

Sounds all good Tony, But I doubt Al would go for someone plastering one of TC members names across the board. I think this particlular tranny has a review on it in the "review section" by previous owner of the tranny. , but not sure if buildlers name is mentioned. Maybe just a "built by" so so would work in the review. That could be added...

GM's midplate design was inferior, according to Autogears Engineer. Autogear had problems maintaining clearances while machining because the parts moved around too much. I was told that the original venting in the midplates was a poor design. Feel free to call Autogear and talk to George he will set you straight. The midplate caused the leaking because the "Builder" installed a non-vented midplate in a trans that should have a vented one since the front bearing is sealed. Where is the trans gonna vent? Out of every seal and the improperly installed case vent that's where. I'm not gonna bash the builder because my post would be deleted anyway(get my drift). I like the M22 and it seems Autogear has great customer service but my inital title was correct because the transmission did automatically leak, hence Autoleak M22.

GM's midplate design was inferior, according to Autogears Engineer. Autogear had problems maintaining clearances while machining because the parts moved around too much. I was told that the original venting in the midplates was a poor design. Feel free to call Autogear and talk to George he will set you straight. The midplate caused the leaking because the "Builder" installed a non-vented midplate in a trans that should have a vented one since the front bearing is sealed. Where is the trans gonna vent? Out of every seal and the improperly installed case vent that's where. I'm not gonna bash the builder because my post would be deleted anyway(get my drift). I like the M22 and it seems Autogear has great customer service but my inital title was correct because the transmission did automatically leak, hence Autoleak M22.

Before I shut this down for vendor bashing, please remember the original way you posted, I have a few observations and questions.

You are not the original owner of the trans.

For all those who wonder who the builder was it was me and I can tell you I have never vented the main case of a Muncie.

So somewhere between the original owner and you some moron drilled and tapped a vent into the main case of the trans and it leaks.

As a builder I can only fix the problems I know about, mind reading is not my strong suit. In all the years of building units I have had only one of the late units that had leak problems.

So, where done here.