Hey guys, Well went and talked to my buddy whos also my builder. I told him I wanted the Brodix Track 1's and he looked at me for a min and said "nope" He told me that his Brodix Salesman swears that the New RaceRites, can outflow The Track 1's when ported decently. Now they are both the same price, why would he try to lie to me and try to sell me less of a head? Or is this myth true? So, he gets a bare casting RR, 40 hour port/bowl work. Comp Tripple springs, 2.08 valves, 3 angle balve job, the works and gasket matchs heads and intake. All this for 1300. The brodix guy swears up and down that this would be a better head than the Track 1's.....Why? Any ideas?

I've got ported Track ones on my 355.....I dont use nitrous.....My car weighs 3070 with me in it and its run a 9.85 @136.10 at Atlanta dragway...so you be the judge ;)

Originally posted by joespanova:
I've got ported Track ones on my 355.....I dont use nitrous.....My car weighs 3070 with me in it and its run a 9.85 @136.10 at Atlanta dragway...so you be the judge ;) What's the rest of your combo again? ;)

Just wondering, whos your builder?? I asked about a reputable builder/machine shop and i was told Mohler engine service out of Collingdale,Pa.

Not street driven at all but.......2 660's,pro dominator,Track 1's,comp custom roller,ross piston,alum. rods,4340 crank....all in a junk .030 over poured block........Nash 5 speed

might want to think over the real-world economics of what he's trying to sell you. He's going to have close to $1K in the deal, and he's going to do 40 hours of highly skilled port work for $300 and have a profit to make a living on? Doesn't add up very good, does it? So, maybe he can get the parts cheaper, but do you want the cheapest stuff in your heads?

The deal just doesn't smell very good when you get to thinking about it. 40 hours of competent port work is worth at least $2000, maybe more. Might want to discuss this with another builder or something.

Tom

SS400, the race rites out flow the track 1's by quite a good margin through .500 lift, then the track 1's get them by around 8 cfm @ .700. NOW the twist im going to tell you is that the Brodix tech i was talking to {Mike} Said to "leave the head alone. Dont port it, the head is going to flow about as good as it can out of the box," That was the jist i got from him. NOW im not a machine shop/ head porter. So maybe he was implying I shouldnt touch them. I dont know. Id call them personally and talk to Mike see what he says.

Aside from the pricing (which sounds a little too good to be true) the Track 1's are an older design than the Race Rites. Not that the Track 1's are necessarily bad heads, just that I'd expect the Race Rites to have a better port out of the box.

The Track 1's are also like 221cc with the Race Rites coming in at 200. If you want to port the heads the original size of the port comes into play -- you may need to start with a 200cc runner to wind up with 215-220cc. If you start with 221 and extensively port the head you could easily wind up a 230 or more.

Depends on what you will use the car for -- if its an all out race car big ports are no problem, if you want to use it on the street you might want to keep that port size down in the 200 - 215 range.

I gotta go with Tom here,,, Those heads with the CNC chamber option are excellent as they come from Brodix.
The intake will outflow the 210 AFR to about .400 with a smaller port.
It is designed to be an outstanding street head & for your deal is probably a better head than the track one with a reasonable cam.
The Track one will be a better head with more cam compression, rpm etc. as it is a larger port.

I know what your guy is paying for the heads assuming he is a dealer for Brodix & I know what I sell the bare RaceRite for so $1300 for completely hand ported heads with 40+ hours of work & decent parts is,,, interesting :D

Nothing against whoever is doing them as he may very well be excellent at what he does but the RR head like a lot of class heads can be screwed up in a heartbeat by some supposed "experts"
I know a gentleman who posts here that just went through this kind of deal with a set of AFR's that someone "improved" on graemlins/sad.gif
Absolutely the worst set of AFR 195's I have ever heard about,,,,,

If you are interested in a complete set of the RaceRites email me & I might be able to save you a dollar or two ;)

I just read Eric's post & while I agree the Track 1 is an "older head" this has very little to do with the design.
The two heads were designed for different purposes & RPM ranges not to compete with each other ;)
+++++++++++EDIT+++++++++++
Also, the Track 1 comes fully CNC ported in 215 & 227cc's & is a killer!!
The standard Track 1 is 221
And you can get the RR in a 180cc port too.

SSChevy400, My Brodix 200CC heads are on a 406 solid roller STREET machine
Eric, and Mike both agree, that you may want more air over .600 for your application. The 200CC flow 276 @.600, about the same as a Track 1. Don't let anyone touch a RR head to get more air over .600. That would be like touching up your orange car with a 4" paint brush. These heads are Brodix's latest newest technology, they are " right " right out of the box made specifically to outflow Niagra Falls at low lift. If you attempt to get more air over .600, you WILL bugger up the low lift real bad.
My RaceRites are CNC chamber, bowl work already done by Brodix, purchased done ready to bolt on, Brodix told me repeatedly, DO NOT touch them.
Awesome head. Like Mike said, they OUTFLOW AFR 210's, Vic Jr's, and many others to .400. In fact from all the numbers from all the heads flows I have, the 200Race rites outflow almost every 227 or less runner out there below .400.
Prior to owning these heads, I thought AFR's 195 and 210's were TQ monsters.
If your application needs more air over .600 the Track1 M2-215 flow 295cfm at .650, and the Track1 M2-227 flow 313cfm at .650.
If your looking for lots of air ONLY on the top end, there are a few choices out there better than the RR's.
But darn few if any can beat them on the low lift numbers, and Brodix does it with a 200CC runner.

Just curious Mike what you think about the TFS 215 cc head.

Their numbers put it right there with the AFR 210 for a bit less cash. Its not CNC either I don't think which IMO leaves some room for improvement with a little well thought out clean up work.

I've had great luck with my TFS 195cc heads and am thinking about the 215s for my next project.

Originally posted by Eric68:
Just curious Mike what you think about the TFS 215 cc head.

Their numbers put it right there with the AFR 210 for a bit less cash. Its not CNC either I don't think which IMO leaves some room for improvement with a little well thought out clean up work.

I've had great luck with my TFS 195cc heads and am thinking about the 215s for my next project. =
Never used em' so I can't say. ;)

Ok guy thanks again, I called him today and just briefly went over everything with him. He told me that the RR's will flow great till about 6500 RPMs. What his salesman told him was that he could open them up to make them flow to around 7500-8000 RPMs without hurting anything else. This is why he said they would outflow the Track 1's. Its hard to talk to someone who is trying to explain something to me that i dont understand. So tell me...is it possible to get more RPMs out of them, w/o hurtting them???
Thanks again guys
Ed

The heads are done, i pick them up tomorrow...and now i'm worried that they are junk....

IMO when you are talking about more RPM's from a head you are talking about making the port bigger -- a larger cross-section. A larger cross-section will reduce port velocity at lower RPMs which typically hurts TQ production, but helps make big flow numbers and good power at higher RPMs.

Too big and low RPM performance will suffer, too small and you will give up top end power. You can't have it both ways -- you need a port that is correct for the RPM range you plan to run.

If the combo in your sig is what you will be running I think you want a head with about a 210-215 cc runner. My 286*/292, 248/254*, .570" on a 108* LSA street roller cam will spin to about 6800 RPM with my mildly ported TFS 23* heads -- they are about 205cc with a 2.0" min cross-section.

PS. I don't think the RR 200's would hurt anything -- although the power curve might go a little flat much over 6500. I doubt the power would drop off enough to be noticeable below 7,000 . . .

Hey joespanova, is your car white and does it do wheelies? Just a few months ago I flew from my place in Oregon to Lawrenceville, Georgia to look at Georgia Tech. While I was there, we made a trip to Atlanta Dragway. I'm sure that was yur car I think you picked the wheel's up when you launched, shifted/hit the ground, than picked the wheels up in 2nd gear, shifted/hit the ground, and then picked the wheels up again in 3rd gear and ran a 9 somethin! :eek: That was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. I was the blonde haired kid in the bright blue shirt that was lookin at yur car with my friend. I had some pics of your car on my pc, but I had to reformat and they got deleted. Anyways, cool car!

Originally posted by 19Nova72:
Hey joespanova, is your car white and does it do wheelies? Yeah, that would be Joe. tongue.gif
A video of the Nova, taken by KJett, is in my signature...

If you get Super Chevy, be sure to check out the latest dyno of "danger mouse." They test the RR's on it.

The Edelbrock E-techs beat the RR's pretty bad. The E-tech 180, really spanked them.

Originally posted by MarkM:
If you get Super Chevy, be sure to check out the latest dyno of "danger mouse." They test the RR's on it.

The Edelbrock E-techs beat the RR's pretty bad. The E-tech 180, really spanked them. Hmm, could you break down the specs of DM with the RRs? Also, as far as I know there are only two E-Tec offerings, the 170 and 200.

JMHO here, but some of the combos that they use on DM dont impress me very much at all. If I was Edelbrock, I would punch them in the nuts after that E-Tec 200 setup on DM.. Sorry, rambling.... :D

Specs for the Race Rite DM setup?

Originally posted by MarkM:
If you get Super Chevy, be sure to check out the latest dyno of "danger mouse." They test the RR's on it.

The Edelbrock E-techs beat the RR's pretty bad. The E-tech 180, really spanked them. They changed the cam when putting on the RR's too -- can't find that issue so I can't say exactly what the other change was besides the heads . . .

It was not an apples to apples comparison of the E-Tec vs the RR's, that much I am sure of.

PS. Found the mag, it was the intake and distributor curve they changed -- not the cam . . .

Again its a magazine dyno comparo that seems to me Ol' Vic Edelbrock MIGHT have somthing to do with.... since theyve now gone through Victor Jr heads, Victor jr intake, super victor intake, E-tec 170's and E-tec 200's. And im sure the RPM manifold was in there somwhere. And funny how they get all the best numbers with the Edelbrock stuff. I guess we should all just drop our AFR's, Trick flows, Brodix, Darts, and World heads and call up Vic Jr for the best....????

I have in front of me the comparison of the E-Tec 200's and the Brodix 180's
I dislike how they (SuperChevy) puts in actual print "Edelbrock has a serious advantage over a lot of other cylinder head companies". The advantage they have is mass marketing and SuperChevy helps that a lot.
The only difference between engines is the intake and heads, all else is the same except of course flow and ports of the heads, which is everything.
The 180's made 469HP and 425TQ, the Eddie 200's made 485HP and 436TQ. This is not apples to apples.
Here is the flow numbers for the Eddie 200, and Brodix 200's, not the Brodix 180's. Lets compare apples to apples.
Eddies200 Brodix 200
.200 122 141
.300 175 221
.400 223 242
.500 252 265
.600 259 272
Now let them compare 200's to 200's hahaha, they SuperChevy would NOT dare, it may hurt the relationship with Vic.
Lets assume that flow is worth 2.1HP per CFM. at .600 the Brodix flow 13cfm more x 2.1HP is a 26HP difference. My simple math puts the 200RR heads at 512HP VRS the 200CC Eddies at 485HP, magazine HP that is. BUT look at the low lift numbers, the Eddies don't even come close. If I wanted to make excessive low TQ, and HP, it sure would not be E-Tec 200's.
My humble opinion again, rearing its ugly head.

God, it's like the investment business where the the marketing hype ( BS) actually obfuscates the truth. I effing love marketing. :rolleyes:

"" I effing love marketing. ""

Gee, Gene!! I didn't know you cared smile.gif

Bill Waters .... Director of Marketing !!!!!!!

Thanks again guys
Ed

The heads are done, i pick them up tomorrow...and now i'm worried that they are junk....
can you say moot subject??
sometimes your just better off reading only.

Originally posted by 1968 hot rod:
Thanks again guys
Ed

The heads are done, i pick them up tomorrow...and now i'm worried that they are junk....
can you say moot subject??
sometimes your just better off reading only. haha, would you mind explaining what you mean? smile.gif

Originally posted by MY FYN 79:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MarkM:
If you get Super Chevy, be sure to check out the latest dyno of "danger mouse." They test the RR's on it.

The Edelbrock E-techs beat the RR's pretty bad. The E-tech 180, really spanked them. Hmm, could you break down the specs of DM with the RRs? Also, as far as I know there are only two E-Tec offerings, the 170 and 200.

JMHO here, but some of the combos that they use on DM dont impress me very much at all. If I was Edelbrock, I would punch them in the nuts after that E-Tec 200 setup on DM.. Sorry, rambling.... :D

Specs for the Race Rite DM setup? </font>[/QUOTE]Then Brodix should really want to "kick them in the nuts."

If anyone wants the specs, get the mag. I'm not going to spend the time writing down the specs, and results. Besides it's all bs anyways. Right?

Originally posted by MarkM:
If anyone wants the specs, get the mag. I'm not going to spend the time writing down the specs, and results. I apologize for the burden of my asking. Seeing as I ran out and bought the magazine when I heard about the E-Tec dyno test, and with Grandpas SS's above info, I now know the combo anyways. smile.gif

Now, I didnt see the RR DM article, but I will agree thats wrong if they were directly comparing the RR 180s to the E-Tec 200s.

As far as the E-tec setup on DM, I wasnt very satisfied with that either, and there was no doubt some power and torque left on the table.. at a lower RPM as well.

My signature reflects my slightly low compression'ed, over cammed 350 with E-Tec 200 heads and a dual plane. 1.6x 60fts as well. Maybe the efficient chambers make up for the low mid-lift flow, I dont know. I'm not being controversial, just showing E-Tecs have potential.

Sorry to the original poster for straying so far off track.

JLP,

I can give you some results of the DM with the RR's. I didn't know you actually wanted to know.

I just didn't want to post them, so everyone could say how it was just the magazine making the numbers up anyways. And if the is the case, maybe we shouldn't believe the RR results either. Maybe they actually did worse. ;)

Well the 200cc RR's have pushed my stickshift, WAY, WAY over cammed, 268/278@.050, over headered 1 7/8"x 3.5, 3500lb, 350, 73'nova, street car to 11.88, then the next pass i broke my rear end. I could have gotten alot more out of it but i never got back to the track this summer.

BUT i still have a ton of tuning left just in the motor. Heck that day was the only day that i had in where somthing wasnt critically wrong. The first time out my clutch was slipping and finally gave out, then the second time i had a fried spark plug wire.

So they cant be too bad pushing such an "off" combo into the 11's. And spinning i still pulled 1.6X 60 foot's with slapper bars. So I highly recommend them, im going to make some big changes this winter and then we will see what these heads really have in them.

See my signature.
I will be doing a rear wheel dyno in late January to fine tune for my A/F ratio. With the new Isky cam, I also need, and want to know where my new peak HP, and TQ curve has now moved to.
So late Jan, early Feb. look for a post Brodix RaceRite Dyno if anyone is interested in a mild street combination results.
Flow numbers mean nothing unless you combine all the parts to match your application.

SSChevy400, who started this original post, if the RR's have been ported, who is to say that you may have a winner on this deal. Lots of 210, 215CC ports on 383's, and you have a light car, and lots of gear, and big bore of a destroked 383 that will draw down on those heads hard. Let us know.

A little fuel for the fire...

The RR200's take a 1206 gasket.
Looking at the intake port at the gasket face, there is a large radius on one side. So the side wall is no where near straight. Looks very similar to a stock set of 049/781 heads as far as the radius goes. So this radius probably adds a number of cc.
Sorry, to late for me to go measure and calc a #.
Anyway these heads may measure 200cc, but area wise they are slightly smaller.

Anybody got ETec flow data from an independent source?
I've seen data on the RR's.
Since it's so "close" to spring, I may wait to swap heads and get some back to back dyno/strip testing with my Vortec's.

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=817583&Searchpage=2&Main=816995&Words=e-tec&topic=&Search=true#Post817583

hope this link works. scroll to the top of the page. if not do a search on the performance section for e-tecs. poster rickwi has flowed the 200cc e-tecs.

Originally posted by MY FYN 79:
My signature reflects my slightly low compression'ed, over cammed 350 with E-Tec 200 heads and a dual plane. 1.6x 60fts as well. Maybe the efficient chambers make up for the low mid-lift flow, I dont know.I'm hearing good things about the E-Tecs from other people too. A guy from another board is running the 170's on his 355 and his performance seems to validate that SC article. He's in the 11's.

Rod

.

After some extensive research, I purchased a set of RR200 heads for my 406. I opted for the 2.055 intake and 1.60 exhaust, cnc'd combustion chambers and 30 deg. backcut on the valves.

Once I received my heads, I took them to be flowed at a shop here in Ohio. This guy had a brand new flowbench so I know these numbers are correct.
int / exh
.200 146 / 117
.300 197 / 165
.400 246 / 203
.500 264 / 222
.600 271 / 228
.700 274 / 235
After seeing the flow numbers, I called Brodix to find out why the intake was very close to their numbers but exhaust was much higher than theirs? They told me that they do not use a pipe. We used a 1.750" pipe when we flowed my heads. The guy who flowed them was very impressed with the exhaust flow numbers and the overall quality of the head.

I'm using these on my 406, 11.0-1 comp.,Comp XE solid roller 242/242, 1.6 rr int / 1.52 rr exh, MiniRam etc. I have not dynoed or ran the car at the track yet. My previous motor was a 383, AFR's, Solid roller, MiniRam etc. That combination went 11.61@118 through full exhaust including cats and street tires. The 406 combination feels much stronger than that. The ET however is to be determined.

FWIW - When I purchased my AFR's, I had them flowed and found that they flowed much less than advertised.

wow, Brodix told me the same thing about the exaust flow #'s, But thats more than i expected.

A couple things I forgot to mention in my previous post.
1. While the head is a "ported as cast" design, Brodix does not taper the valve guides. I tapered mine with a die grinder and sanding roll.
2. The finish on the intake and exhaust runners are excellent. I cannot see where any porting could be performed on the head. The bowls are blended to the seat.

kinda like the new car craft where they took a 540 and eddie heads and made like um if memory serves me right 711 hp 676 tq with eddie headsat 9.5.1 compression/ ever see the george carlin stand u[p comic stint on advertising. lol

Originally posted by Grandpa's SS:

I will be doing a rear wheel dyno in late January to fine tune for my A/F ratio. With the new Isky cam, I also need, and want to know where my new peak HP, and TQ curve has now moved to.
So late Jan, early Feb. look for a post Brodix RaceRite Dyno if anyone is interested in a mild street combination results.
Back from the dead! smile.gif

Did you ever dyno your car yet??