I dropped off a 496 block to a shop in the twin city MN. area. The builder decked the block to have .003 piston depth. He bored the engine and installed the new .070 pistons, sent out the rotating mass to be balanced, resurfaced the flywheel, installed bigger valves and seats, did some porting work, he told me the heads would cost about $300 to $400 in labor. I pcked up the motor with only the pistons and crank installed. He gave me a bill of $2300 labor and never detailed the individual costs. He also added $100 in shop supplys. I think he over charged me by about $600 to $800. What do you guys think?
Thanks

Dave,

I'm unable to tell you if you got screwed or not, but ALWAYS and I say again, ALWAYS get it writing before ANY work has begun. That way, you won't have any problems in the future. Have your engine or anything guy, itemize everything for parts and labor beforehand. That way, if anything goes wrong or he overcharges you, you have written proof to offer as evidence, if necessary, if it goes as far as Small Claims Court. If they refuse, take your business elsewhere.

Hope that helps.

Respectfully,
John R.

He told me he would send me an itemized list of the labor charges. I figured he would pad the heck out of it until he reached the number he needed to get to. We had a standoff in the shop when he handed me the bill without any itemized costs. After 10 minutes of asking him what the charges were he said he would have to do it tomorrow and for me to come back. I told him to drop the $100 shop fee and I'll pay up and get the heck out of there. He could see that I wouldn't be back. He dropped the labor to $2100 and $50 for shop supplies. I did not bully or intimidate him. I was polite but firm and not loud or rude. I think he could see that I would never be back unless he at least itemized the bill. I still feel like I was ripped off.

Dave,

I think you might get more traffic on this over in Engines. I am going to slide it over there and hopefully some of the engine builders can help you out.

Thanks airrj, I need all the help I can get.
Dave

Dave,

Well, had it been me, I would have told him that I'll wait to see the itemized bill before he would get the job and hand over my hard earned coppers, but that information is too late to help you now. Hey, the same thing happened to me with a bricklayer about six years ago, but I learned a great lesson from it. Thank God it's not in the thousands of dollars, chauk it up as experience and move on. Now you have opportunity to "pass the word" about that guy and tell everyone what occurred. I hope that everything he did was on the up and up and at least you had some work performed.


With this thread being moved to the proper location, you should get better information on the value of the work that was performed, including the parts.


Respectfully,
John R.

What parts did the machine shop supply? Valves, pistons, bearings, rings, rear seal, valve seals, ?????

Maybe I am not comprending what I am reading but if the shop supplied many parts the price might not be too bad. If you supplied all the parts when you brought in the engine I would be very upset also.

Does Minnesota require a written estimate to be provided before work is performed?

I would be talking to the State's Attorney.

If that was labor only, you got the shaft.

I provided everything except the valve seats and the cam bearings. The bill was over $2700. The labor was $2300. He pulled a number out of thin air and wrote it down. He claims he will send me a detailed bill in the mail. When he does I'll post it.
I haven't felt like this since I got my prostrate gland checked a couple years back.

I haven't felt like this since I got my prostrate gland checked a couple years back.

Did he have both hands on your shoulders? Sorry, I just couldn't resist but that was funny right there....

Sorry to hear you are having troubles.

Ya man, a few years back I dropped off a junkyard 400SBC. The block was cleaned, checked, decked, bored .20, aligned honed, crank and rods were rebuilt, new pistons & rings installed, clevit bearings in the bottomend, crane cam installed. Competition valve job, new springs, locks etc.& they replaced a coupla valves, new dbl roller chain, high vol oil pump, and short block assembly.... I think there was a bit more done than that but I can't remember... anyway I was out the door for $2800 parts & labor.

Sorry to hear your trouble.

Just checked reciept and that was actually $2100

My builder furnished a 69 440 block with matching 063 heads, all new guts, pan, and balancer for $2800 turn key delivered 160 miles. Deduct about $600 for the motor and heads, $150 freight, and a liberal $750 for the other parts you are at about $1300 for machine work and assembly. Some of your work may have been a touch more than mine but they blasted the original intake and installed it , installed the water pump so it could be painted at the same time and installed the valve covers. It was run on an assembly machine prior to shipping and when we fired it we touched nothing.

With all that being said I think your overcharge estimates are pretty close. For $2k in labor I would think you should get some pretty exotic work done. A professional local race car engine builder quoted me a not to exceed price of $2K on a 454 for parts, labor and tax.

I had my 454 bored, heads cut, crank polished, rods sized & more machine work, all new internals ie: cam, lifters, valves, timing chain, etc. and broken in on a test stand for 2900.00. I furnished nothing.
I think he is trying to take you.
Sorry.

Was the cost of the heads included? If so you might have gotten a little tickle from him.but think of it this way.
When that motor comes alive and shakes all the dust and small items in your garage. it will be money well spent.
It is easy to say you got the shaft,But the quality of machine shops vary greatly.After you put a few runs on it, you will know if you got the hose.
Best of luck Jim

Thanks for all the advice. I'm the type of guy that usually does everything on my own. I have forgotten how the real world operates. I have had health issues in the past that helps me keep all this in perspective. It's only money I guess.
I did come up with a new name for the engine builder. "porn star Dave" He gave it to me in every way humanly possible.

Was the cost of the heads included? If so you might have gotten a little tickle from him.but think of it this way.
When that motor comes alive and shakes all the dust and small items in your garage. it will be money well spent.
It is easy to say you got the shaft,But the quality of machine shops vary greatly.After you put a few runs on it, you will know if you got the hose.
Best of luck Jim

Thanks Red,
I like your way of thinking.:thumbsup:

You can always call the bureua of automotive repair ! you asked for an itemized list (receipt) and they didnt provide ! the BAR will investigate.

You can always call the bureua of automotive repair ! you asked for an itemized list (receipt) and they didnt provide ! the BAR will investigate.

He OFFERED to, shouldn't he wait to see if he delivers on the itemized receipt before running to the authorities?

I'm waiting to see what he sends. It should be creative writing at its best. If he uses the same time frame he uses to get repair work done, I won't see anything for 3 months. If I don't get something soon I'll give the BAR a call.
Thanks for the tip.
Dave

He OFFERED to, shouldn't he wait to see if he delivers on the itemized receipt before running to the authorities?

Well of course , but 24 hrs should suffice.

What machine work did he do?

There is shop supply added always, labor is to do the work - thats it - shop supply charge is assy lube, paint, cleaning material, engine bag to keep the engine clean. He also has to charge $5 fee on every ticket as that covers the cost of rags.

On a complete rebuild, $75 is what we charge for shop supply additional to the labor, again this covers rags, bags for storage to keep clean {which you get also}, assy lube, paint, material to prep for paint and assemble such as silicone, thinner to clean the deck, also in shop supply is a cost for things such as ring grinder wheel, valve grinder wheel

list everything that has been done to the engine and what he did supply, $2,300 labor for just build is high but again what did he supply and what machine work did he do?

if what u are saying in accurate I think you were over charged by about $800 to $1,100

Can you PM me the builder? I may know who it is but would like the name to verify my suspisions. My neighbor went to get his new engine and the guy quoted $8000 he went to pick it up at the Dyno and was handed a bill for $11,500.

On a complete rebuild, $75 is what we charge for shop supply additional to the labor, again this covers rags, bags for storage to keep clean {which you get also}, assy lube, paint, material to prep for paint and assemble



Sounds like he got 800 dollars in assy lube... Sorry couldnt resist :p Nothing bugs me more then things like this happening whether its builders, contractors, retailers...

Sounds like he got 800 dollars in assy lube... Sorry couldnt resist :p Nothing bugs me more then things like this happening whether its builders, contractors, retailers...

Deleted this - Read post below. I missed something in his original post

I dropped off a 496 block to a shop in the twin city MN. area. The builder decked the block to have .003 piston depth. He bored the engine and installed the new .070 pistons, sent out the rotating mass to be balanced, resurfaced the flywheel, installed bigger valves and seats, did some porting work, he told me the heads would cost about $300 to $400 in labor. I pcked up the motor with only the pistons and crank installed. He gave me a bill of $2300 labor and never detailed the individual costs. He also added $100 in shop supplys. I think he over charged me by about $600 to $800. What do you guys think?
Thanks

I just looked over it again, look at this and call goo machine shops to find this out or PM billk or Wolfplace

- bore engine, hot tank, install new cam brgs with torque plate $500+
- do complete valve job $200
- Porting heads is $375 just for a bowl job with blending, Full port with large valves can run $2,000
- Installing seats would run you a bit more
- balance rotating unit $200
- turn the crank $200
- deck the block $125

Right here you have $1,600 in machine costs + labor to build the shortblock and assemble the heads and install which you said he didnt install the heads - What was the reason for this? Is it possible you didnt supply a cam and he didnt install the heads so you could mock the engine up?

I dont know this builder, im not this builder, im jut saying all the information should be clear.

Call machine shops that deal with performance engines, its not cheap

Maybe I didn't get taken to the cleaners. I still have a set of heads dripping epoxy out of the exhaust ports. How much do you think the heades are worth?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2134/2497379779_d9ab3bf581_b.jpg

Dave,
Just quickly looking at the invoice, I would say his price is in line or maybe even a bit less than what I would charge.

That being said, my biggest gripe would be the fact that you were not aware of the price until you went to pick it up. If I did that to my customers they would probably shoot me :) I always try to estimate on the high side to cover any possible situation. If something comes up along the way, I call and get an ok from the customer.

Dave,
Just quickly looking at the invoice, I would say his price is in line or maybe even a bit less than what I would charge.

That being said, my biggest gripe would be the fact that you were not aware of the price until you went to pick it up. If I did that to my customers they would probably shoot me :) I always try to estimate on the high side to cover any possible situation. If something comes up along the way, I call and get an ok from the customer.

same here but if we run into a problem we write down on the back of the invoice the time we called the customer, and that they gave the OK and if they had any questions that way if they come to pay for the job and its $100 higher we can say we talked to you at x:xxpm or am and you said ok for $x amount

yes

What is this about epoxy dripping out of the ports? :confused:

I have spent $950 to get a crank turned (indexed), shotpeened, and balanced, and piston pins fitted. Half of the work was sent out to be done by another well known shop. All of the work was perfect, but it was a bit expensive. I can't say that your total bill is all that wild.

The complaints I had were similar to what you would have room to complain about. I showed them the problems with the parts, explained what I wanted done, got an "ok, it shouldn't be that much", and then next I heard back was a phone call from the machinest that everything was ready a few weeks late and cost $950. I was mad because it was a bit more than I expected, partially because some work was done that I didn't request (but did need), and none of the prices were stated in advance or confirmed by a phone call. In my state this is actually illegal!

On the plus side, I had dealt with the shop a few times before and found them to be honest and very good at what they do, just not the best business in the world. I paid for the job in cash and returned to the same shop later without reservation, just with a new attitude to make sure they follow the process of giving a written estimate and not deviating unless they can get the thumbs up from me first.

You can't imagine how much I appreciate all your opinions, weather yes or no. I still am really disturbed about the water jackets being hit and the ceramic dripping out the exhaust ports. I am afraid of a hydo lock up. I have learned over the years not to be anal about cars and to be satisfied with less than perfect things, but I am worried about the heads. One local engine builder told me that my heads are junk and they definately will leak because the seats are pounded hard and the sealing material won't hold up. If you guys give me the green light on this the motor will be running by Sunday. If not I don't know what the heck to do. How could I ever sell the heads without screwing the next guy. I would rather throw them away than pass them off on someone else.
Thanks for all the help.
Dave

Dave,i never broke out what parts & machining/labor were by themselve's but here is what my complete rbld was comprised of with me doing all the diassembly and reassembley on my 396.

I was wondering if you had inadvertantly forgotten or overlooked all the little tihings/details that the machiest had done for your pareticular motor machine work.

Take a look at what i had done and maybe that list will refresh your memory if thats the case.

Nothing is cheap these days in my area/NY,the indipendent car reapir shops get approx $60-$70 hr labor,midle of the road new dealers gm etc get approx $90 hr labor,and hi end Volvo/Merc/BMW,etc get $100-$120 hr labor. and those tech's that repair cars dont need the skills a good machinest does IMHO. But the reapir tech's do have to be shcooled on repairing thses complex cars of today,thats for sure,but i still think its simpler to rep todays car with computor diagnostics then get machine work correct for building motors.

So with that said think about what your machinest labor coat is and how many hrs he put in on the job not to mention a few parts he included and his supplies/materials/overhad heat & elec before you get too upset about it,i bet it's more then you realize.

The only parts the machinest supplied for me were the clevite hi perf mani/rod bearing,the oversize wrist pins,the plasma moly rings,and 2 ex manifold studs,i supplied the rest of the new parts inc plenty of coffee & donuts to keep him moving on the project.(LOL!!!!).

Total for parts,machine work,and all else listed below was approx $3,500.

SCOTT
================================================== ==============

MACHINE WORK(I CAN RECALL):
=======================

* HOT TANK BLOCK/HEADS/INTAKE
* DECKED BLOCK/HEADS
* MEAS/CHK IF ALN BORE WAS NEEDED,WAS OK
* BORE BLOCK .030 PLATE HONE
* INSTALL NEW CAM BEARINGS
* INSTALLED FREEZE PLUGS
* INSTALLED MAIN STUDS
* MEAS CRANK
* CUT MAINS .010 UNDER /RODS OK
* RADIUSED(?) OIL HOLES IN CRANK
* POLISHED & CLEANED CRANK
* MAG'D RODS
* RE-SIZED BOTH ENDS OF RODS
* INSTALL NEW ROD BOLTS
* HAD TO RESIZED SMALL ENDS OF ROD'S FOR NEW WRIST PIN'S
* INSTALLED NEW OVERSIZE WRIST PINS
* REMOVED OLD PISTONS & INSTALLED NEW ONES
* FILE FIT FINGS AND THEN INSTALLED ON PISTONS
* 063 HEADS DID MILD POCKET PORTING
* INSTALLED NEW BRONZE GUIDES
* INSTALLED NEW SEALS
* INSTALLED HARDENED EX SEATS
* INSTALLED NEW MANLEY RACE FLOW SWIRL POLISHED UNDERCUT VALVES & DID 3 ANGLE VALVE JOB
* INSTALLED NEW SPRINGS & RETAINERS TO CAM SPECS
* TEMP INSTALLED CAM TO CHECK CAM BEARINGS /CAM ETC
* BALLANCED COMPLETE RICIPRICATING ASSEMBLY
* RE-SURFACED FLYWHEEL AND CHECK'D FLYWHEEL CLUTCH BALLANCE AS ASSEMBLY
* REPAIRED 2 BROKEN EX MANIFOLD STUDS
* MAG'D INTAK FOR CRACK'S
* MACHINED OFF APPROX .025 FROM ENDS (FRONT/BACK) OF INTAKE BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT SEAT FULLY DOWN DUE TO DECKING.
* REMOVED PILOT BUSHING
* MADE/MACHINED A PILOT BUSHING INSTALL TOOL FOR ME
* GAVE ME ASSEMBLY LUBE.
* TACH WELD PICKUP TO PUMP
* REMOVED STOCK TIMING GEAR FROM CRANK
* INSTALED NEW DBL ROW T/GEAR TO CRANK

PARTS I SUPPLIED (THAT I CAN RECALL/REMEBER I REASSEMBLED THE COMPLETE MOTOR EXCEPT FILE FITTING THE RINGS & INSTALLING THEM ON THE PISTONS :
=========================

* SPEEDPRO FORGED PISTONS
* SPEEDPRO PLASMA MOLY RINGS
* ARP WAVE LOCK ROD BOLTS
* WRIST PINS
* CELVITE NASCAR SEVERE DUTY TYPE MAIN/ROD BEARINGS PER HIS REC.
* CAM BEARINGS
* BRASS FREEZE PLUGS
* HYD FLAT TAPPET CAM/LIFTERS
* DBL ROW T/CHAIN & GEARS
* M77 MELLING OIL PUMP
* OIL PUMP PICKUP
* ARP MAIN STUDS(2 BOLT BLOCK)
* ARP OIL PUMP STUD
* COMP MAGNUM ROLLER TIP ROCKERS
* MATCHING COMP MAGNUM P/RODS
* 180 HIGH FLOW STAT
* MILODON HI FLOW WATER PUMP
* AC 40727 F/PUMP
* NOS GM GF432 FULE FILTER(PRICEY BUT NOW THERE IS A GOOD REPOP AVAIL @ LOWER PRICE)
* ARP LIGHT WT F/PUMP ROD
* FULL FELPRO PERFORMANCE GASKET SET
* FELPRO 1 PC OIL PAN GASKET
* RTV/ARP THREAD SEALENT/INDIAN HEAD SHELLAC
* FILTER MAG MAGENET
* OIL FILTER ADAPTER
* STOCK GM OIL PAN
* ARP HEAD BOLTS
* CAM/LIFTERS
* SPRINGS/RETAINERS/LOCK'S
* CLUTCH PLATE/PP/RELEASE BEARING/PILOT BUSHING
* OIL (ENOUGH FOR CAM BREAKIN & POST CAM BREAKIN OIL CHANGE)
* 2 OIL FILTER/S
* GM EOS
* ANTI FREEZE
* PLUGS
* CAP/ROTOR/WIRES/POINTS/COND
* UPPER /LOWER HOSES
* HEATER HOSES
* WIETECH/TOWER CLAMP'S
* HAD RADIATOR HOT TANKED & FLUSHED AT LOCAL RAD SHOP
* ENGINE PRIMER & PAINT
* RADIATOR PAINT

The only time I got a bit put out with my machine shop of choice was when I built the 462 I had in the Firebird. I was charged $200 for bearings. Then I went online and priced them out, and figured in shipping, and figured that if I'd have bought them myself, I might have saved $20. So I got over it. I'm waiting on the new engine now. Eagle stroker kit, will take the new 400 block to 461", with forged pistons and rods this time. Just the shortblock, I wouldn't be surprised if the bill ends up around $2700. I got a parts quote from him first on the Eagle kit, he says about $1650 + $100 or so shipping. That leaves some room for boring, decking, balancing, and align hone the mains for the stud kit. I wonder why I do this stuff sometimes. ;)

SWEATON,
Thanks for the detailed responce, That was quite an effort. And Cameano, I wonder also why we do this.
Thanks again.
Dave