I'm looking at selling an 70 ls6 convert (no paperwork, but history), has 4.10 12 bolt, no a/c, no motor, no trans, no interior, no glass, just a roller with good body panels, floors, trunk, and convertible top frame, and no hood. Would probably need a donor car to get some glass and other misc parts. Throw me some numbers, thx

Very hard to say with such a limited description and no pictures to resource. The value could be anywhere from 1K to 25K, but no real way of placing a value at this point without more info.

Picture a 70 convertible, body on rolling frame. Has trunk lid, convertible top frame only ( no material or window), no interior, no drive train. Has 12 bolt posi original with 4.10's, no hood. Overall body good shape. If you spent 10 hours of body work, you could prep for paint, and put car together. It's not that it's in bad shape, just a lot missing when car was taking apart.

I'm looking at selling an 70 ls6 convert (no paperwork, but history), has 4.10 12 bolt, no a/c, no motor, no trans, no interior, no glass, just a roller with good body panels, floors, trunk, and convertible top frame, and no hood. Would probably need a donor car to get some glass and other misc parts. Throw me some numbers, thx

:confused:

If it aint got the original engine, aint got the orig Trans and no paper.. why on earth would it be worth anything more then any other 70 convert project.? why even use the language LS-6 Convert. ? it's no longer an LS-6.. there's no engine :noway:

With no build sheet it will be hard to prove anything. What is the build date of the car from the cowl tag? How many fuel lines? Where was the car built? Original front door trim panels still on the car? What colors?

Mike- If there turns out to be a build sheet, it's STILL an LS6 if the sheet says it is...

What's the build date on the cowl tag? That would be the number and letter on the bottom left?

What's the build date on the cowl tag? That would be the number and letter on the bottom left?
Beat ya to the punch, Mike! :thumbsup:

With no build sheet it will be hard to prove anything. What is the build date of the car from the cowl tag? How many fuel lines? Where was the car built? Original front door trim panels still on the car? What colors?

Mike- If there turns out to be a build sheet, it's STILL an LS6 if the sheet says it is...

Well David.....no offense my friend, but you wouldn't be the first to disagree with my thought process on that subject.. and no need to argue anyone's point.. but I just feel.. if the THING that makes something RARE is no longer there.. it aint RARE any longer... and just because a piece of paper tells me it USED TO BE.. it no longer IS!

It's no different in my opinion of having a 66 SS L-78 car.. if the L-78 engine is gone.. guess what.. it's just another 66 SS.. they made lots of them.. even with paperwork.. the thing that makes it rare is the engine.. It's what I call a USED to BE car and that doesn't get my wallet open any further. :D

Mike, you're right to a certain extent. If the car can be proven to be an LS6 with a build sheet, the value will soar due to the fact that someone somewhere will say...I gotta have that.
Even though, at todays prices for parts it would cost a boatload of cash to do the car right, and you still have a NOM car, BUT... more than likely it would be more than one person after the car. This is how you start a bidding war, and the price skyrockets. Agree, my friend?? :D

Right to a certain extent is about the best I can hope for :D

I also wouldn't pay more money for a picture frame that was documented as having housed the Mona Lisa.. if the Mona Lisa is gone.. it's just another Picture Frame.. dime a dozen ..:p

I hate to say it, but "Used to be" cars do in fact bring more money.

Not my money......:noway: But they do bring more.

Why is beyond me.

Mike,

So your saying a car with all original drivetrain without a buildsheet is worth more then a car with a buildsheet but no original drivetrain?

Sean

All you guys are correct! There's an A$$ for every seat. Just build one and someone will buy into it. I mean buy it. ;)

Mike,

So your saying a car with all original drivetrain without a buildsheet is worth more then a car with a buildsheet but no original drivetrain?

Sean

From my opinion, Absolutely.

Regardless of buildsheet, one has the original motor, and one does not.

A buildsheet helps authenticate an original car, all it does for a non original car is tell a story of what it used to be.

Mike,

So your saying a car with all original drivetrain without a buildsheet is worth more then a car with a buildsheet but no original drivetrain?

Sean

Umm.. yes, that seems to be a no brainer. :confused:

Mike,

So your saying a car with all original drivetrain without a buildsheet is worth more then a car with a buildsheet but no original drivetrain?

Sean


Problem is nowadays, it's nearly impossible to determine if the engine is indeed the original, as the restampers are pretty good at making them look like original engines.

Umm.. yes, that seems to be a no brainer. :confused:

How do you know for sure it is the original drivetrain? With so many fake items on the market dont you think it is a lot harder to tell?

how do you know it's the original Buildsheet? ;)

Cube.... NAME??


The question you posed was:


So your saying a car with all original drivetrain without a buildsheet is worth more then a car with a buildsheet but no original drivetrain?

I answered that with Yes, it is a No brainer... Now the next part of your question, that is an entirely different subject which is not whether a car without it's orig. drivetrain but with docs. is worth more than an car with it's Orig. drivetrain and no docs....

The Topic of how do you know it's orig. drivetrain.. well.. there are never any guarantees.. but this subject is not limited to 70 Chevelles. some model years are easier to show originality then others. For instance.. 66 and 67 SS cars have the engine DECK stamped with the serial number of the car.. so it is a bit easier to show Originality.. that's not to say that, as was mentioned.. restamps are not all over the place.. but in my humble opinion.. The bad guys are just NOT good enough yet that they get it Perfect.. esp. in 66 and 67 where the individual plants have their own particulars about fonts size and style.. I have been hired to look at many 66 and 67's and to be honest, I have found many Restamps and saved many guys from spending Big Money.. and they are happy for having done their Buyer Beware homework....... too the casual observer.. they look really good.. but like anything else.. a trained eye and good research helps flush out the fakes/restamps.. and as John said.. this is not limited to Deck stamps.. Documentation is also Faked every day.. but I still believe.. the bad guys don't always do their homework as well as they should and we as consumers must do our Homework even better and our due dilligence or set ourselves up for paying too much for a Fake.. it is always Buyer Beware!!

So how do you know it's Original drivetrain?? You don't always Know.. but some homework and patience definitely helps.. especially on the RARE cars... but if the car does not not have it's Original Drivetrain.. that is, as I said.. a NO BRAINER!! No homework required... it's just another 66 or 67 or 70 or 68 or whatever.. in my books.. they made plenty! ;)

Mike Crown

It is amazing to me how something can remain the same when the things that made it that way are gone. Nowhere but with a car can an illusion command a steep price.

A millionaire stripped of his wealth is no longer one even if he can produce bank statements 30 years old saying he was at one time.

The president of a company that is stripped of his position is no longer the president once his title is taken away.

The president of this country is no longer the president once his term is up. He is now the "former" president. He is still called that but he ain't no more.

A LS-6 , L-78 , SS 396 , L-79, etc. is no more without the correct components that made it one. It is not much more than the Sport Coupe it entered the assembly line. Now I will agree that a documented body that has been built with all the correct components that made it a certain type car can be represented as a correct, original no correct yes. Without all the pieces you have no puzzle.

I still yearn for the day that the most important thing about a car is the quality of the build. As we procede thru life we realize that P T Barnhum had it right all along.

The bottom line is not what our opinions are, it's the opinion of the buyer at that point in time. We all agree to disagree on what a car is, was, should be and might be. The value is based on what someone is willing to pay for at any givin point in time. Its just like I hear alot of people say while watching Barrett-Jackson, "there is no way that car is worth that much cash!". That is opinion because at that point in time the car was worth that much cash. After the money changes hands it just back to opinions again. Damn its cruel world!:beers:

Yes.. but what someone is willing to pay is certainly influenced by what the current perception of it's worth might be. The Opinion of the buyers is definitely influenced by what WE here in some instances... say and do. So, if we as hobbyist give a car like this the thumbs up.. ie., Yes, it is still an LS-6 even without the drivetrain and it's worth more then another 70 Convert. non LS-6 This is what the Lurkers see and read.. then guess what.. when one of them Lurkers has an opportunity to buy one of the USED TO BE's... he might just pay what he is willing to pay.. but to say he was not influenced by what he constantly reads and hears from the hobby as a whole is a mistake. We pay what we are willing to pay for any car based on a things we read and hear as well as what our own individual financial situations are like.

Yes.. but what someone is willing to pay is certainly influenced by what the current perception of it's worth might be. The Opinion of the buyers is definitely influenced by what WE here in some instances... say and do. So, if we as hobbyist give a car like this the thumbs up.. ie., Yes, it is still an LS-6 even without the drivetrain and it's worth more then another 70 Convert. non LS-6 This is what the Lurkers see and read.. then guess what.. when one of them Lurkers has an opportunity to buy one of the USED TO BE's... he might just pay what he is willing to pay.. but to say he was not influenced by what he constantly reads and hears from the hobby as a whole is a mistake. We pay what we are willing to pay for any car based on a things we read and hear as well as what our own individual financial situations are like.

Mike,

You must be the archeologist of chevelles. I just wanted your perspective of your thoughts not the snide "no brainer bulls### comments". I own over 23 high profile chevelles and camaro's nova's (yenko,copo,motion). Some of these car do not have original motors but are documented. In the end it is all what were willing to pay needless to say. By the way my name is Sean and I do sell cubes.

www.modularsystems.net

WELL all i got to say is that i USED TO BE, AND i am now not what i was.

Somehow it's seems that this thread has moved off track as to what others opinions are as to values based on if the car has documentation, numbers matching or what ever. Titan396's car has neither. The only thing is the history of the car which has not been presented in this thread. My own opinion and it is just my opinion is that you will have a hard time convincing someone that that was an LS6 car with what you have presented. If the car had an honest real build sheet stating what the car was, it would be worth more. How much I don't know. It sounds like the car needs total restoration and a bunch of replacement parts to complete.

As for the ones that come to TC looking for advice on buying a car, I think that guys like Mike Crown are some of the best resources to keep potential buyers from purchasing a car that is being misrepresented.

As for selling a car, Its difficult to put a starting price on a car we have not seen. If the car sells quick, then you can say the car was priced right or maybe even to low. If the car is priced to high, the market will let the seller know he needs to make an adjustment. JMHO!

Sean

Why so much hostility?? Maybe my perspective which is what you got, hit a nerve since you own so many high profile non original drivetrain cars? I wasn't being snide.. and if you felt that was the case, I am sorry.. but what was not needed was your current attitude. maybe since you own so many high profile cars and have 172 posts, you can afford donating to this site and becoming a MEMBER..:sad:

Sean

Why so much hostility?? Maybe my perspective which is what you got, hit a nerve since you own so many high profile non original drivetrain cars? I wasn't being snide.. and if you felt that was the case, I am sorry.. but what was not needed was your current attitude. Crawl back under your rock or.. maybe since you own so many high profile cars and have 172 posts, you can afford donating to this site and becoming a MEMBER..:sad:MIKE,

Mike,

You did not strike a nerve at all. Being we never met I do not know your actual tone and I appreciate your inside track on things. No I don't post that often because I work and that is why I can afford high profile cars very fortunate to say the least. Good point I do need to donate and will. Thanks, for pointing that out Mike.


Sean

Sean..... it really was a "no brainer" Pal.

That aside, I think the "negative connotation" of the "Clone" saturation of the market has driven the value of non numbers matching, but documented cars up.

The numbers craze in the 90's drove the "originality at all cost" viewpoint to the extreme. The subsequent "distastes" for anything unoriginal, makes the documented unmatching numbers cars somehow "better" than a Clone and you pay for that illusion of seperation.

But as it is with any investment grade antique, "rarity, condition and originality" sets it's value.

When you no longer have originality, it's value is placed primarily on cosmetic quality, exactly as a Clone is valued.

No premium for originality can be demanded so what premium can the documentation extract?

This is coming full circle though as high quality, High horse, desirable model recreations are beginning to pull the same value as "average quality" Low horse numbers matching cars.

With the exception of the rare, All original, High horse thouroughbreds, Build quality and desirable options is where to place your emphesis.

Sean..... it really was a "no brainer" Pal.

Everybody's idea is differant. How many cars lets say for example have been bought on spectulation that Joel Rosen did the car and all of the sudden it has paperwork and original drivetrain etc etc. I know of many cars faked, rebodied, stamped and peoples pocket books being destroyed because of car guru claiming to be the real thing were not. So to say it is a "no brainer" not really when you start talking and claiming a car is real you better be able to back it up with docs period. I would never purchase a car without paper or some proof that it was real. Speculation is far to enticing to people. To many deadbeats trying to make a buck just cloning cars now days. That will never be stopped. One thing I was told long ago by a salesman is there is new sucker on the street corner everyday and I am waiting to take his money. Kind of harsh but true. Watch your dollar's and make your penny's work for you.

Sean

I like my used to be LS6 black cherry car I paid $6500 for many years ago :D

I would never purchase a car without paper or some proof that it was real.

Sean


Well lets get back to the basics of this question again.

There's no right or wrong answer, as stated, everyone has an opinion of what's important to them.

But, from your perspective, why does it matter what it once was, now that it isn't any longer original?

Why is proof of originality important to you, after the car has been rebodied, butchered, different motor, trans, rear etc. A gutted out rebuild.

Why does the paper matter at that point?

Why does it make it stand apart?

I like the analogy of a frame that used to hold the Mona Lisa. Just the fact that it used to frame the Mona Lisa would make it more desireable that other frames perhaps but without the Mona Lisa it's just an expensive frame with some good history.

So a COPO Chevelle with a non original engine is just a Chevelle?:confused:
Or, A ZL-1 Camaro with a non-original engine is just a Camaro?:sad:

Ahhh...the never ending argument about what's what...and why!;)

BTW, if the Mona Lisa was put into another frame...then you're looking at a 'rebody'...and that is a whole different can of worms...LOL:D:thumbsup:

Or a Diamond Ring Appraisal and Certificate of a "Flawless" grade now with a Cubic Zirconia replacement stone.


Bruce your correct however when looking at Copo's, Yenko's, ZR-1's and other rare beasts of "Historical signifigance" where the car itself, regardless of it's originality holds interest.

But this "argument" is typically discussed over the base model 396/325HP Chevelles which were a dime a dozen.

SO if you have a 1966 396/375 SS Chevelle with POP, build sheet...but not the original engine...it's just a SS Chevelle now?

Why wouldn't the same principles/arguments apply to BOTH scenarios (ZL1 Camaros and 1966 396/375hp SS Chevelles...or for that matter LS6 Chevelles-certainly not a dime a dozen)? :D

Being a dumb *ss country boy I still need it explained to me how a COPO or ZL-1 is still able to be one without one the rarest of engines. How is a 70 L-78 still an L-78 without a motor with less production than a LS-6.

How about this. One of my cows is bred to the most elite bull in the industry. Being bred to this bull or having his calf at her side will push her value to the limit. If she loses that calf at birth she becomes just another open cow without the one thing that made her more valuable. She now is only worth minimum value.

I'm looking at selling an 70 ls6 convert (no paperwork, but history), has 4.10 12 bolt, no a/c, no motor, no trans, no interior, no glass, just a roller with good body panels, floors, trunk, and convertible top frame, and no hood. Would probably need a donor car to get some glass and other misc parts. Throw me some numbers, thx

Ok back to where all this started.

What is a non-documented 1970 convert, missing lots of parts, roller worth?

SO if you have a 1966 396/375 SS Chevelle with POP, build sheet...but not the original engine...it's just a SS Chevelle now?




No, it's a NOM Chevelle SS. It is no longer an original specimen, and it's value is no longer placed on it's rarity and originality, it is now placed on it's cosmetic build quality, just as any other NOM Chevelle is.

Unless of course if you plan on re-stamping the motor, then of course it would be of a greater value to the fraudulant type.

You either have an investment grade Blue Chip Original, or you have a driver, of which worth is placed on curb appeal, build quality, and Wow factor, as is all un-pedigreed drivers.

Not to say you cant have a numbers matching, driver, 67, 375HP, but you can't have a Blue Chip investment grade L78 without the original drive train.

Ok back to where all this started.

What is a non-documented 1970 convert, missing lots of parts, roller worth?

That question is more vague and open to varying opinion than the topic we're discussing.

I'll bite, maybe 8-10K, depending on how much is really missing once you could see it in person. There may be other down sides/rust issues once it's in front of you but without good pictures it's just a guess.

so the question has been answered. but however even if it had the original block and all matching numbers, it still would be questionable without pictures. so the TRUTH IS THIS. YOU CANT REALLY GET A HONEST OR FAIR APPRAISEL ON ITS VALUE WITHOUT SEEING OR TOUCHING IT. how good of shape or how bad of shape is it in. that is the only factor. As far as what it used to be only depends on what the person interested in buying it thinks its worth. RAY ALLENS CAR USED TO BE AN LS6.

That question is more vague and open to varying opinion than the topic we're discussing.

John,


Your correct, I respect your thoughts and judgment however, it is the original question asked here.

The guys looking for an answer, I think the thread kind-a got side tracked.

Kevin

Ok back to where all this started.

What is a non-documented 1970 convert, missing lots of parts, roller worth?

Different amounts to different people.
To me - maybe 3-4K IF it wasn't a rust bucket AND IF I had the 3-4K to spend.
To someone with a lot of money intending to build an "all original - documented LS6 convertible" from scratch, probably a lot more.

Kevin, with 41 replies and 500 views, it without question is sidetracked. :D

As would be expected when asking what an undocumented LS6 Vert roller is worth.

LS6 Convertible....... undocumented with no motor but history.......

It opens up pages and pages of hypothetical debate and rebutal dosen't it?


His question as stated, was answered on the first reply and without detailed photos, will never truly be answered.

SO if you have a 1966 396/375 SS Chevelle with POP, build sheet...but not the original engine...it's just a SS Chevelle now?



Maybe I stuttered earlier....:confused: YES, it's just another 66 SS NOM car. Sorry Bruce.. I just can't see it any other way? don't hate me :D

When I sold the Mystery Chevelle.. I didn't expect or ask for a Ton of money because it USED TO BE an L-78, M-22, Cowl Plenum Air Cleaner Car...Nope.. it no longer had those Rare items.. it was one Hell of a Nice 66 SS, nothing more, nothing less.. end of story, It will always be a USED TO BE Car! :yes:

Why on God's Green earth would it be anything else?? It is not built any differently and it doesn't look any differently.. there is no longer anything Rare about the car Bruce.. The rare part is gone.. the ORIGINAL 375hp engine..

and Yes, I know I know.. it's my opinion and I am trying to not convince anyone that my opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.. but I guess maybe I just don't get it :sad: Sorry.

That all said, everyone one of these guys who wants to pay a Premium for a car that no longer has it's rare feature.. Be my guest.. we all spend our money in our own way.. it's all good!!

Great conversation here fellas, thanks for keeping it civil ;)

The car has 1 fuel line, original 12 bolt with 4.10 gears and correct date. No a/c and correct ss wheels, disk brakes, sway bars, was green color with white top and white interior. I'll have to get trim tag info. Need to dig to back of garage to get to car.

Without any documentation it is just a Chevelle without any drivetrain that may or may not have been a SS. Depending on condition it may be worth $1,000-6,000. Anything on that car may have been changed in the last 39 years.

Maybe I stuttered earlier....:confused: YES, it's just another 66 SS NOM car. Sorry Bruce.. I just can't see it any other way? don't hate me :D



...and Yes, I know I know.. it's my opinion and I am trying to not convince anyone that my opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.. but I guess maybe I just don't get it :sad: Sorry.

That all said, everyone one of these guys who wants to pay a Premium for a car that no longer has it's rare feature.. Be my guest.. we all spend our money in our own way.. it's all good!!

Great conversation here fellas, thanks for keeping it civil ;)

Mike...I know where you stand on all of this...I was just 'funning' with you and John. :D:D:thumbsup:

I see everyone's point of view...and I respect them all!

I'd never hate ya Mike...you've provided me with tons of useful info in the past three years...and for that I THANK YOU! :hurray::beers:

Still a Chevelle newbie (but learning every day):p,

Bruce

The car has 1 fuel line, original 12 bolt with 4.10 gears and correct date. No a/c and correct ss wheels, disk brakes, sway bars, was green color with white top and white interior. I'll have to get trim tag info. Need to dig to back of garage to get to car.

I looked at a car that sounds very much like the one you describe. It was in South Carolina when I saw it, but came out of Louisiana. That was about 1990. It had been a drag racer and still had spots on it where a roll bar attached, or the roll bar was still in it, I can't remember.
Does any of that sound familiar to you?

I like the saying it is a clone ss LS6 but with period correct parts. Is it still just a malibu now with LS6 pedigree?

Sean

Without any documentation it is just a Chevelle without any drivetrain that may or may not have been a SS. Depending on condition it may be worth $1,000-6,000. Anything on that car may have been changed in the last 39 years.

Not "just a Chevelle" it's a Convertible.
That alone makes it worth much more and being a 70 Convertible makes it worth even more.
A 70 SS Convertible more yet.
A possible "all original" 70 SS LS6 Convertible ...well you get the idea.

hey i am not done yet. i would love to have it regardless of what it is or was. cuz i know what i would like for it to be. MINE. has anyone looked high and low for a build sheet. high and low means in everyplace possible. does anyone have a copy of the original title with the sale price on it. has anyone done a title search. regardless it is still worthy of restoration no matter how bad it is rusted or missing. THESE CARS OF OURS HAVE TO HAVE SOME OTHER APPEAL TO US OR WE WOULD BE DOING SOMETHING ELSE. THEY ALL MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO EVERYPERSON WHO THINKS ABOUT OR DRIVES ONE.

This is a dissagreement over a car that has no drivetrain, interior or hood. Basically, a rolling body tub from the sounds of it. Personally, with all those parts missing. I cant see paying more then 1,000 bucks for it, convertable or not. There is too many parts missing to get any sort of a decent price for it, IMO.

Not "just a Chevelle" it's a Convertible.
That alone makes it worth much more and being a 70 Convertible makes it worth even more.
A 70 SS Convertible more yet.
A possible "all original" 70 SS LS6 Convertible ...well you get the idea. Very well said Dean:thumbsup:

Different amounts to different people.
To me - maybe 3-4K IF it wasn't a rust bucket AND IF I had the 3-4K to spend.
To someone with a lot of money intending to build an "all original - documented LS6 convertible" from scratch, probably a lot more.

As to the original question, I agree with Dean. The poster that asked the question could ask for $20k for his "roller" and may get it. Realistically, probably not.

From the "for what it's worth" department, I agree with Mike. Even if you have all the documentation in the world, once a car no longer has it's original drivetrain it's worth much less to me. Note, I didn't type "worthless". I tend to think that cars with a pedigree still have more value than those without, such as a Malibu 'cloned' to look like an SS. Example: if I came across a documented '69 COPO Chevelle sans original engine, I'd buy it because it definitely has worth to me, even without the original engine. But, I wouldn't spend anywhere near what some people might consider it is worth. That 427 is what made it a COPO in my humble opinion.

It really is too bad that we've gotten to a point in today's world of muscle cars that people even bother to 'fake' 'em. Didn't use to be that way -- or at least nobody seemed to be very good at it like they are today. :mad:

I do not agree if it came off the line as an ls6 it will always be an ls6 car. I dont care what motor is in it now or how many it had, it dont change the fact of what is was built and sold as an ls6 ,car and will always be a sought after car ,but only to those that cherish the ls6 . That is many go and buy a new zo6 vette, blow the motor and pull it out and lose it and set in in a barn for 30 years when somone wants to bring it back to life with a new engine! Are you telling me it is no longer a z06 vette.I dont think so, it will always be what it came off the line as a zo6 vette as a SS 454 ls6 body will always be an ls6 car. If you are into diff year cars you will not agree, I dont give much attention to other year cars , not that they are not nice, I just prefer 70s ,as most of what its worth is all over the mighty ls6. Its like the jeep thing you wont understand till you have one!

Wow. That's the longest sentence in TC history, right there. :)

Wow. That's the longest sentence in TC history, right there. :)


my eyes are still going crazy :eek: ;) :D

Sorry, I was trying to do two things at one time , cant hold a wrench in one hand and type at the same time.

I do not agree if it came off the line as an ls6 it will always be an ls6 car. I dont care what motor is in it now or how many it had, it dont change the fact of what is was built and sold as an ls6 ,car and will always be a sought after car ,but only to those that cherish the ls6 . That is many go and buy a new zo6 vette, blow the motor and pull it out and lose it and set in in a barn for 30 years when somone wants to bring it back to life with a new engine! Are you telling me it is no longer a z06 vette.I dont think so, it will always be what it came off the line as a zo6 vette as a SS 454 ls6 body will always be an ls6 car. If you are into diff year cars you will not agree, I dont give much attention to other year cars , not that they are not nice, I just prefer 70s ,as most of what its worth is all over the mighty ls6. Its like the jeep thing you wont understand till you have one!

I don't know Shawn... I have a Jeep and I still don't understand :D but it's all good.. we have our opinions!

Yes I hear you, my son had a jeep, then my daughter had to have one , so I went down to the jeep dealer and we bought a new one in 2002 and she drove it 2 weeks and hated it , it was a 4 cyl , so I never really understood the jeep thing , just thought it fit ,lol.

It takes a special breed to lay out $25k on what amounts to a "Model A" Body on a 4 wheel drive suspension and Frame.

It's a "select" few, who either get it, or don't.

I don't :noway: