Okay, here it is, my car and my plans. Ive got a 66 chevelle 2 door with a 500 horse 400 cid small block and a TH 350. The following is what is planned to be done to the car:
Fab 9 rearend spinning 4.11:1 gears, CA Chassisworks with a ladder bar setup and coilover shocks, tubular fron A arms with coilovers, the car will be modified to fit 11.5 inch slicks under the rear, and front runners up front. Wil have a 15 gallon fuel cell, and a full roll cage and interior. Track elevatiuon here is around 2200 feet.

So you think I can be lookin gat the ten second quarter mile range? IU have given some thought to adding a 300 horse shot of N20 also, but that will come with soime high dollar forged pistons. I will have to recover from the above before biying those suchers. I also hope to port and polish the dart 2 heads and try to get another 30 pr 40 hosre out of them. What are your thoughts on this matter??

-=Andy

!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by 406chevelle (edited 01-05-2001).]

what the heck is a fing poser?

I think he means f***ing poser...

Maybe it's an inside joke, between the two of them? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif

Well regardless of who is a fing poser, YES a well built 400sbc with a good shot of spray will go 10's.


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"Being good isn't always easy...no matter how hard I try"
Big 'ol Baddass Dave Armstrong

'67 Chevelle 396/Th400/4.10
'95 Firebird Formula LT1(2FST4LOV)

The Burnout (http://chevelles.com/showroom/BBD1burnout.jpg)
The Launch (http://chevelles.com/showroom/BBDavelaunch.jpg)
The MAN!!! (http://chevelles.com/showroom/BBDave.jpg)(the guy in the black shirt)

406 - If you know Andy and are having fun with him throw in a j/k or a http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif to let others know it's in jest!! If you don't, what's up with the BS??

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...Dennis
Topless '69 (http://home1.gte.net/ddunio/topless69)

that was my first post so I dont know about any sort of "inside joke" or whatever, what is the fing poser stuff all about? Thos of you that actually responded, thank you for the input.

-=Andy

Drewdog,
I don't know exactly what a 66 Velle weighs, but assuming you have optimum traction and nothing breaks, it takes 580 rear wheel HP in a 3600 pound car to go a 10.7. That equates to a little over 700 HP at the crank. If you think you can do that, then yes you will be in the 10's.
Jim R.

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My 70 Chevelle (http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jim/)

Okay thanks. I knwo im not making 700 horse at the crank, but I could do it with some N20, but will need those forged pistons for that since id rather not melt the ones I have now. Since the car is a street machine, i will be quite happy to be in the low 12s, and I think that is possible with the ladder bars and the 4.11:1 gears and nie wide tires. thanks for the input.

-=Andy

andy, stay away from the ladder bars you don't need them and they're a dead give away if you want to stay some what stealthy. try the no hop bars instead, they work very well and you can't see them unless you crawl under the car. Don

A well built street 500hp 406 with 300 nos will run 9.20 on dragradials (275/60/15)

A corvette 85 did it here...

Bottlerat, the no hop bars, im not sure I follow you. I was thinking with going with the Hotchkis adjustable bars, or the one from Chris Alstons Chassisworks. What do you think of those? And do you think I ought to run a pair of coilovers instead of the coil spring and shock setup with the control arms?

And that 406, is that small block or big block? And I know the keith Black Hypereutectic pistons I have will not take a 300 shot, probably not even 200. Compression is 11 to 1, so what do you guys think I could safely handle without melting the pistons? Also, will porting and polishing the Dart II cast irons make a big diference in power??? thanks.

-=Andy

no, i'm not talking about control arms. i was refering to when you said ladder bars. i thought you were talking about traction bars. and if your talking about the gazan morrison setup. that will work.its a good setup.i used it in a 68 that i used to have.i was real happy with it. BTW,that kit come's with a set of no hop bars

Is your car going to be a street, street/strip, or mostly strip car? If is going to be mostly raced, go for the ladder bars...limited street duty, use ladder bars, if your gonna see more street than strip...use the GM style bolt-on pieces.

A good 406 can run in the 10's, but it takes a good pair of heads and a good combination. My old 406 ran decent for what it was:

2 bolt block, main studs, cast GM crank, race prepped GM 5.7 rods, Speed Pro 13:1 pistons, Crane solid roller cam 256/266 @ .050, .625 lift, very old Dart II heads, bowl blended 2.02/1.60 valves, Strip Dominator intake, 820HP carb, 8" 4200 stall converter, 4.56 gear, 10.5 x 28 slick, 3200 lb w/driver, best et 11.27 @ 120 mph w 1.49 60'. The heads flowed very poorly which was 230/173 cfm and stopped flowing @ .400" lift. I am certain a head flowing over 280-300 cfm would have provided enough power to break into the 10's. note: the cam was too large considering the head flow.

To port your heads and flow well, expect to pay about $1200-1500 in porting. It might be cheaper to sell your heads for say $600-700 or so, and add to that to but a pair of AFR 220's or equivelant heads...just a thought.

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Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
11.16@125.8mph
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net

The heads are still brand new on the motor. The engine has never even been cranked over. The car will msotly see strip duty, trailered there and back, and sometimes on the street to cruise around and show off, you knwo how it goes. the cam is a very high lift cam, .623 if I remember correctly, but I would have to go check the build sheet. Thansk for the input.

-=Andy

On a 400 sbc, a good flowing head makes a ton of difference. It's kinda tough to put a head that is too big on a 400 (talking standard 23 degree stuff here).

Did you happen to have any flow work done at all before bolting the heads down. Flow #'s don't mean everything, but they can be a good way to compare before & after porting work.

Call around to a few good porting shops and ask what they can give for your $$$ spent. When I called, I got quotes af about $1500 on average.

For all strip use, stick with your ladder bar plan. Stock GM suspension can be made to work, but you'll spend much more money than a basic ladder bar setup. Coilovers like you mentioned will add more tunability for different tracks and climate/bite changes.

good luck

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Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
11.16@125.8mph
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net

Well Your KB pistons will not take anymore than 150hp, and that is pushing it. Hey have you dynoed that 406 of yours? Because looking at what you have said that thing should be at about 450hp according to Desk Top Dyno, (and that is normally high). Hey if you want to go 10s I would say add some forged pistons and a fogger. A Flat top 406 is a good motor, but w/o NOS it is not enough for 10s.

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RYAN REEVES
RRCHEVL69@AOL.COM
Don't get your panties in a bunch, it is just a small block.

Ryan, the motor is a 400, not a 406, and I got it as a crate motor from speed-o-motive and they rated it at 450+hp. At the time I was limiuted in money I coudl spend, but the Army is going to give me a pretty decent bonus after this summers training so I can dop a little playing. Some aluminum AFR heads amy be in order, or possibly some brodix heads. And I think I will do the ladder bar setup because the car will be mainly a strip car with the occasional street cruise. And you think a fogger is in order? thats a big deal N20 setup, not sure if I want to mess with it. Anyhow, its all food for thought so Ill chew it untill its time to spend more money. Thanks

-=Andy

Hey do you guys think that a street car in the 11s or 12s is pretty quick for a streeter? I mean, I know I want at least 12s out of the car, and I woudl be overjoyed at 10s..... But its all a matter of money.

-=Andy

DrewDog, To avoid emulating a character from CarToons Comics I would suggest the following:

1) Go to the drags and start talking with the racers that have cars performing like you want your '66 to be like.

2) Don't reinvent the wheel when you are attemting something you have never before done - use proven combinations only.

3) If it all seems too confusing, then seek out a reputable speed oriented shop, preferably one that has actually built a number of cars. Tell them exactly how much of your bonus money you want to spend. Then tell them to make your car as fast as that money can. Do not question their choices - this might be hard to do, but a little trust in their experience will go a long way.

As I read your postings all I could imagine was a pile of broken parts, and a bunch of people pissed off because your first time home brew just oiled down the track. Seriously, until you have both knowledge and skill it would probably be better to turn your project over to more experienced hands.

I'm not really trying to pick on you, its just that over the years I have seen too many people with grand visions of glory behind the wheel of their automobile end up scattering their mismatched engine/car. All because they insisted on "doing it themselves" when they didn't have the experience for it.

YA, proven packages work the best. Ther is a guy here who has been building race cars for 20 years that I will be working with on this project. He says many of the same things you jsut said also.

DrewDog, it sounds like you have found exactly the kind of person to help you along. I'm sure that you will get your '66 into the 10's eventually. Take your time getting there and you should learn a lot in the process. My own 406 project engine should be up and running in the next few weeks. When it is all dialed in I'm expecting 11's on the motor and high 10's on N2O.

i think one thing being overlooked here is the transmission and converter. without those two you can forget 11s much less 10s. that turbo 350 wont live without at least a hardened outer race for the for the intermediate roller clutch. the ultimate fix is a aftermarket drum with the 36 element sprag type clutch. thats the only way a 350 will live going as fast as you want to go.
a turbo 350 will run about a tenth of a second and about 1.5 mph faster than a 400. i changed from a 400 to a 350 in my car and thats about what i picked up.
a good 8 or 9 inch converter is going to cost about 7 or 8 hundred dollars to get smallblock in the 10s without nitrous you will probably need at least a 9 inch converter. i have seen so many people spend 5 or 6 thousand dollars on motors and use a 200 dollar junkyard trans with a shift kit and a vega converter and wonder why their cars dont run. just my 2 cents worth

Yes, transmission, not yet tlkaed about, but not forgotten by me at least. I was thinking a nine inch converter and about a 4,000 rpm stall speed. The TH350 is jsut as you stated, stock with a shift kit. I knwo it wont take the 500 horse the motor is going to throw at it so I have to either have it worked on, or get a new tranny from Jegs or Summit, or wherever. Anyone got any suggestions?

-=Andy

Have your TH350 rebuilt with the extra clutches and install the hardened sprag outer race. That will easily handle the power you have. I have a TH350 in my car and plan to keep it until it fails (approx 600-625hp). So far my trans has 120+ passes in the low 11 second range @ 3200 lbs.

I know for a fact that a TH350 built right can take 1000+HP and run in the low 9's @ 3500 lbs. The one fellow I know has a G-body Cutlass with a 540 ci BBC running nitrous. He builds all his own transmissions.

I have no intention on changing until reliability becomes a problem.

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Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
11.16@125.8mph
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net

Todd, how much money am I looking at to do what you jsut told me to my TH 350?? I think that shoudl be one of my majpor concerns before anything else.

-=Andy

I paid $300 for my trans including the core (trans shop supplied it), and I supplied them a TCI manual valve body (paid $140)...total $440. I didn't really need the manual valve body, but I didn't want to mess with the vacuum lines, kick-down linkage, and playing with governor weights, etc. I just wanted a simple trans.

I believe my trans guy had since raised his prices though (haven't checked recently). I myself would like to try my hand at building a trans someday. I figure that if I can build a complete car (frame off) and build several engines, why can't I build a transmission? I might invest in one of those videos before trying my hand a building one though.

If I do wind up having reliability problems in the future, I will probably contact the fellow I mentioned before and see if he will work with me on bullet proofing what I have...time will tell though.

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Todd Geisler
79 Malibu
11.16@125.8mph
Malibu Muscle
http://www.MalibuMuscle.cjb.net

Ya, I think tearing apart and rebuilding an automatic transmission is about the toughest thing you can do. So many little pieces and so forth.....I thought about a manual transmissiion too becaue I like shifting and all. What are your opinions of that??

-=Andy

Oh and another thing, the old motor in the car was a 350 bored .030 over with a fairly stout cam, flat top pistons, and 64cc heads. Gears were what I believe to be something in the neiborhood of 2.80:1, either way they were highway gears, and I ran a quarter mile at 15.001 at 90mph. What do you all think the horsepower of the old motor was???

-=Andy

90 mph in a '66 should be close to 200 rear wheel hp, or close to 240 flywheel hp.

63hp.

63hp??........ass

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

j/k

-=Andy

I have rebuilt a few th-350's. Not to tough, if you stay organized. Getting the front pump out and compressing the packs are the toughest. I made slide hammers for the pump and used modified vise grips for the packs. It can't really go together wrong. You just have to get the clearence right on the clutch packs. I had a book that goes thru step by step/with pics. Vaseline and more Vaseline.

Drew, Hey man don't think I am knocking the 400 at all a 450hp motor is a stout small block. I was just trying to be realistic to help you. If you are looking at the AFR heads you will pick up about 30-50hp over the dart II heads. When I said fogger I mean over a 250hp shot of NOS. I normally think of big NOS as a fogger. I am sure you can get it into the 10s with a plate system too.

You know it is like a lot of people are saying, don't reinvent the wheel. Go with what is proven to work, unless you have time and money to burn for the sake of being different.

And Yes if you ask me a 12 or 11 sec street car is very fast. Tubbed Cameros with blown rats are not street cars. If you can run 11s w/o the bottle or a blower and still drive it, then you have something to talk about. There is a fine line between race and street those of us who can find it and take a ride on it love it. Good luck in finding that line.

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RYAN REEVES
RRCHEVL69@AOL.COM
Don't get your panties in a bunch, it is just a small block.

yes, to me it sounds like ud have better than a 10 second car ;)

Drewdog,
I don't know exactly what a 66 Velle weighs, but assuming you have optimum traction and nothing breaks, it takes 580 rear wheel HP in a 3600 pound car to go a 10.7. That equates to a little over 700 HP at the crank. If you think you can do that, then yes you will be in the 10's.
Jim R.

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My 70 Chevelle (http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jim/)

Hate to say this but is does not take 580 RWHP to run 10.7's in a 3600 lb car. It doesn't even take 580 Flywheel HP to run 10.7's at 3600 lbs.

An honest 500 HP naturally aspirated small block WILL get a 3600 lb Chevelle into the high 10's if and ONLY IF the chassis is set up correctly. Don't expect to build a motor stuff it in the car and go 10's the first time out . . . ain't gonna happen unless you are an experienced racer and nail the chassis setup and have it dead hookin' the first time out.

My Camaro weighs in at 3580 # race weight and my 383 is roughly 500 HP and has gone 10.97 at 122.8 mph. That is with 3.73 gears and a 10" converter that is a hair on the tight side. With proper gears and converter the car has 10.8's in it.

Typical gearhead approach to going fast is building more motor . . . while a strong motor is important to get into the 11's and ultimately the 10's it becomes more about the chassis when you start talking about sub-12 second ETs. There are lots of guys with boosted Cobra's and other late model cars that run enough MPH in the quarter to go mid-11's but for "some reason" seem to be stuck in the low 12's. I wonder why . . . ;)

My point is just that it doesn't take as much power as you might think to go high 10's but it does take a chassis that is set up correctly.

If your car currently has a +- 250 Hp engine. You now have this new 450 HP engine don’t run out and buy a fogger. Put the new engine in and run it a little and give yourself some time to adapt. I’m not sure what your past driving experience is but your talking about allot of power. I myself have been racing for years and last year built my first NOS engine with a fogger. My car ran 12’s on motor and 10’s with a 250 HP shot and it’s a hell of allot to handle. A couple really important points have been made one the Trans and the other the converter. Don’t skip on eater of these areas if you go cheap with a Trans it will trash the converter. Cheap with the converter it could balloon and wreck the thrust in your new engine or trash the trans. Or like I did 10 years ago when I bought a $400.00 GRE converter when that took a dump it trashed a good trans. Live and learn and defiantly pick the brains of all these other guys experience is worth big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in preventing mistakes. Also you don’t want to put a fogger on an engine that wasn’t intended to run Nos and start spraying 250 to it the ring gap would be to tight butt the rings and then you’ll have junk scuffed up pistons. I wouldn’t spray 100HP to a set of Keith blacks their not a NOS piston they shatter like glass.

Anyone else notice this post is 4+ years old?

"Anyone else notice this post is 4+ years old?"

I did!
I wonder how fast his car went after all.

I was suprised when I pulled up this thread and saw my own replies from 4 years ago.

chevelle boy may be new to this site - but he has apparently been making up for lost time by reading all the archives.

The topic itself is still a good one: how much power to make 10's? And perhaps more to the point: what kind of driving manners would you like with your serving of 10 second speed? If you want some streetability left in your car then a bigger engine can work with a milder chassis and converter to do the trick.

Thomas

Crap I didn't notice how old it was. I now also wonder how fast he is running did he actually buy a fogger. Whats up Drewdog?