Hi folks,

On this board I've heard (or been told):

1. Scat cranks are junk. (Not verified)
2. Comp lifters are junk. (I now have Red Zones, I wasn't willing to take a chance)
3. Comp cast steel roller cams are junk. (Questionable, I now have a billet, wasn't willing to take a chance)
4. B&M converters are junk. (Mine has lasted for 8 years, I bought it used, works perfect!)
5. Mallory UniLites always fail. (Mine has lasted for 6 years)
6. Air Flow Research valve springs break. (See # 1 above)
7. All aspirin is alike.......ok, I made that up. :)

Glad I didn't mention that I'm using Manley rods, Manley timing chain and Manley pushrods......or an ATI balancer....someone has either had them fail or "knows" someone who has.

Personally, I think anything in a race engine is subject to failure.
On the other hand, sometimes you have to try new things.

I'll post the results from my dyno session.
After that, I'll tell you how the car runs. (Sorry it's a Nova)

Ron

1.using first Scat crank now, no comments yet.
2. no experience with lifters, like their cams though
3. don't think their cast steel rollers are junk, you need to go billet with big lift and high spring pressures.
4. B&M converter are NOT junk, I've run two with good luck,switched from a BM holeshot to 10" ATI converter with no improvement.
5. Mallory Unilites, this is all I've ever run in performance applications,never had a failure. Most failures do to running 12 volts to module.
6. never used aftermarket heads, no comment.
7. You mean they arent all alike :D

I'll add this much,
Unilites can be great, I had problems w/ them comming apart at higher RPM's.. but I think that was taken care of w/ the 9000 series ( I was using them back in 82-88 )

I used AFR 210's for 5 yrs. and never broke a valve spring.. spun it to 8200 every pass.

On the comp cams.. are you talking about the steel cams / iron presses on gear ?

And finally .. you forgot Cloyes Hex Adjust Timing Chains .. again ran them for 12-13 years here and never had a problem

Anything by Mr Gasket >>>> JUNK.

I disagree, I've used Mr.Gasket header gaskets with success. Most of your chrome,shiny dress up stuff is junk,ex: fake braided steel hose, it really looks tacky.

The deal with the cast cores is strictly spring pressure related. And I will add from experience, that a block with absolutely dead on indexed lifter bores will have less cam/roller lifter issues with spring pressure than a block that is not perfect. That's really where I think the problems occur with the use of cast vs billet cams. So the big question becomes, how many of these recycled production big block motors are spot on index? My guess, not as many as we would hope. I would be willing to take a chance at running much higher spring pressures on a cast core roller if installed in a bushed/indexed lifter block.

Same goes for cranks. A real good balance job, along with longer rods and lite wt pistons will put a heck of alot less stress on a crank than hanging a heavy rod/piston on it and running it to death. You can pretty much go around each mechanical item in a motor, look at it and ask - why did it fail, why did it wear so fast, what can I do to actually correct the problem, not just repair it?

The only CAM I ever lost during break-in was a comp XE268 hydraulic in a 327. I used the same procedure I have used for 20+years. I will say they were very good about replacing it even though they said it wasn't their fault. The replacement broke in fine. It's probably just dumb luck but I've stayed with Harold and Lunati from there to now. As for most of the stuff mentioned, A lot depends on how it's used and if it was installed properly.

IT'S FRIDAY graemlins/beers.gif

Troy.

Originally posted by Ron454:
Hi folks,

On this board I've heard (or been told):

1. Scat cranks are junk. (Not verified)
2. Comp lifters are junk. (I now have Red Zones, I wasn't willing to take a chance)
3. Comp cast steel roller cams are junk. (Questionable, I now have a billet, wasn't willing to take a chance)
4. B&M converters are junk. (Mine has lasted for 8 years, I bought it used, works perfect!)
5. Mallory UniLites always fail. (Mine has lasted for 6 years)
6. Air Flow Research valve springs break. (See # 1 above)
7. All aspirin is alike.......ok, I made that up. :)

Glad I didn't mention that I'm using Manley rods, Manley timing chain and Manley pushrods......or an ATI balancer....someone has either had them fail or "knows" someone who has.

Personally, I think anything in a race engine is subject to failure.
On the other hand, sometimes you have to try new things.

I'll post the results from my dyno session.
After that, I'll tell you how the car runs. (Sorry it's a Nova)

Ron =

This is from my own experiences:
1: In 12+ years I have broken 2 Scat cranks.
Both were cast, one was from machining error which has been addressed over 5 years ago.
The other was a 383 in an alcohol modified that lasted almost 3 seasons to 7000+ until it broke.
I would not call this the fault of the crank rather a crank where it didn't belong.

2: Comp lifters are not junk but I feel their are better lifters out there.

3: Cast rollers in my opinion are not the best plan. Even Comp will tell you not to put any spring on them.
Funny thing is if you have the exact same lobe put on a billet the spring recommendation goes up about 100lbs?? You decide what's going on here.

4: No clue, I don't use converters but I know a lot of people with B&M stuff that seem pretty happy.

5: Only failures I have had were my fault. Or, when all else fails, follow the damn instructions :D
I personally prefer MSD but that's nothing against Mallory.

6: In the wrong application this is probably true & even AFR will tell you to upgrade to the premium spring if you are going to run aggressive cams & RPM the thing,, again, follow the advice or instructions or try blaming the person responsible which would be the dummy that didn't listen & then can't accept responsibility for his or her own actions graemlins/sad.gif

7: Agreed & I need four,,, :D

I've have great luck with Unilites and B&M convertors as well.

Shoot, I don't know how to do the quote thing, so forgive my cut and paste....

Hi Mike,

"This is from my own experiences:
1: In 12+ years I have broken 2 Scat cranks.
Both were cast, one was from machining error which has been addressed over 5 years ago.
The other was a 383 in an alcohol modified that lasted almost 3 seasons to 7000+ until it broke.
I would not call this the fault of the crank rather a crank where it didn't belong."

My comment came from the often heard here: Scat cranks are made offshore and are junk.

"2: Comp lifters are not junk but I feel their are better lifters out there."

Other comments here were not so kind as yours!
I'm glad I bought the Zones. :)

"3: Cast rollers in my opinion are not the best plan. Even Comp will tell you not to put any spring on them.
Funny thing is if you have the exact same lobe put on a billet the spring recommendation goes up about 100lbs?? You decide what's going on here."

Well, that was the problem. 3 different calls to Comp, 2 by me, 1 by my builder resulted is 3 quite different answers. Not to mention that Comp even changed the recommended spring in their catalog (weaker). The choice to go with a billet was easy.

"4: No clue, I don't use converters but I know a lot of people with B&M stuff that seem pretty happy."

Me either really, but mine works great.

"5: Only failures I have had were my fault. Or, when all else fails, follow the damn instructions
I personally prefer MSD but that's nothing against Mallory."

I think the unilite will blow up if wired wrong. Like you say, follow the instrutions.

"6: In the wrong application this is probably true & even AFR will tell you to upgrade to the premium spring if you are going to run aggressive cams & RPM the thing,, again, follow the advice or instructions"

Thats what I did!

7: Agreed & I need four,,,

Only 4?

The point is, if it's a perf part, someone will have a problem somewhere. And it seems to me like that makes it gospel.

And I was cranky last night.
Nothing personal.

I'll tell the world if the plastic gear breaks.

Ron

Oh :rolleyes: Please tell me more about #3 http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/images/graemlins/rofll.gif

http://www.usfamily.net/web/hoffbug/camlobe1.jpg

Ouch!
A buddies Chet Herbert roller cam cam out looking just like this.
I don't know if it was a cast core or not.
Cost him main, rod bearings and rings.
Any warmer in Minn?
Ron

The only one that I can confirm is the B&M problems. It got so bad at one time that any retailer who sold them always said when it leaves my store it is between you and B&M I am not part of the deal anymore.

Ron
Highs in the 30's lows in the teens. Average for my area this time of year. Ill e-mail you the Rockwell test for the cam above if you would like. Then you can remove the questionable reference on #3 ;)

It's not just Comp. Any cast core roller subject to either too high spring pressure and / or lifter bore problems may experience accelerated cam lobe wear. I lost one made by another manufacturer. Right now I have a Comp Hyd roller that is a low lift (.540 lift deal). Open pressures are only 330# and I intend to keep it that way. But that is one heck of a lot less than the 450 - 500 needed to make the big rollers work.

As an Engineer working for Holley I would much rather have people add clarification to statements, rather than just say something is "junk".

Certainly a lot of poor quality aftermarket stuff out there.

But....did you install it properly, is it the correct application, was the machining right, and many other factors that apply NOT related to the part.


I certainly understand your fears. I have really researched parts for the 491 I am building, and hope I have selected wisely.


Personally, I place a LOT of value on what people like Mike Lewis say because:
1) He sees a lot of stuff, rather than having only one experience with a part.
2) He just doesn't say something is "junk", he give techincal reasons why which usually relate to machining, proper application etc..
3) His livelyhood depends on using quality, but cost effective parts.

I totally agree that Mike knows of what he speaks. I didn't aim any of my coments at him.
I got my Red Zones from him!
Ron

Tony,
I have lots of relatives in the Minneapolis/St Paul area.
I never see them though......

Just curious???? What kind of spring pressures can you run on a cam that wasnt heat treated properly ?

BTW.. Mike has forgotten more about engine building than most of us will ever know. Who aimed a comment at him?

Cast core rollers 350#. I know some guys that have gotten away with 400# but the rollers have to track correctly, meaning the lifter bores have to be dead on to distribute the load across the roller otherwise you run the risk of developing a groove at the edge of the roller. Billet rollers are a different animal.

GRN69CHV :D
Youre missing the point... The cam wasnt heat treated! 200# open would have killed it ;)

The springs in the catalog for my street roller were 437 and 467 over the nose. That's now.
When I bought the cam some months ago the recommended springs gave 484 over the nose. So they backed off on that.

Originally posted by Ron454:
Shoot, I don't know how to do the quote thing, so forgive my cut and paste....
All small block Camaros are faster than all big block Novas.
RA,

Just click on the quotaion marks top right of the post you want to quote. Move the cursor to the very end and type away. You can even even delete stuff out of the quote if it's not pertinent. (You can also add stuff the person never even said!)

Your Little Brother

Originally posted by Ron454:
I totally agree that Mike knows of what he speaks. I didn't aim any of my coments at him.
I got my Red Zones from him!
Ron =
Hi Ron,
I was just answering from my own experiences & took nothing as personal,, I didn't even consider it as anything intended for or at me ;)

And, I personally think putting aggressive solid roller lobes like some of the XE stuff on a cast core is an exercise in stupidity but that's just me.
I have never had a lobe problem with a cast core hyd roller with a reasonable spring on a reasonable lobe in any block,, just don't expect it to be a 7000 RPM deal.
Of course, I never received one like Tony's either :(
I don't consider 450lbs a reasonable spring on a street hyd roller cast cam & I have SB one with less than 2000 miles that attests to this, it was already tracking.

As for solid rollers,, I believe I will stick with billets smile.gif
I personally feel the 'bad block" deal although a very real problem gets way too much credit for hurting cams,,

And thanks to Doug & Tony for the kind comments,, I see I got you guys fooled too :D

This is an intresting thread....

If I may I would like to make a comment or two.

I have worked in the automotive field since 1974 and in the Automotive Aftermarket since 1978 on the supply side.Have I seen any problems ? Tons of them.
And for the vast majority of manufactures out there they are very concerned about any problems... at least over the long term.

Two decades ago Crane had a problem with their valve springs... a series of springs known as the " Oteva " Springs.... they were the laughing stock of valve springs.... Great cams but bad springs...
What did they do ? They phased them out when they realized that there really was a problem.It's rare to hear of problems with Crane springs now.

Holley's were for many years famous for leaking..
And they really did... during those years many had
cork bowl and metering block gaskets... they worked ok as long as they were wet with fuel but the gaskets would shrink if they dried out...and the result was a leak.... What did they do... they developed new gaskets and the leakage problems largely went away.

The GPT carbs such as the old Sports Claw series had several problems... Mine was dead lean.My 750 DP had an idle feed restrictor of only .023... not big enough... I drilled it out to .032 and presto
ran like a champ.... GPT made the necessary changes and cured that problem also..... and ended up due to the law suit with Holley redesigning their carbs to what we have today.....

Header mfgs and their fit problems... Many of the complaints I have seen and heard of were for the classic years of muscle cars of all makes amd models.... Many of these manufactures designed these headers when these cars were new..... Now that they are 30 plus years old and have lord only knows how many zillions miles on them with 3 engine swaps , two trannys ect ect... These cars even if body off restorations wont really be quite the same as they were when new.... so everything has sagged... perhaps the car has been in a wreck
or raced extensively or sinply driven hard....Now his new headers dont fit all that well.... What do we often do?..... Some of the " Newer " header manufactures did things on the sly and never even bothered to design their own headers but simply copied the older designs.... Leading to a compounding of the problem..... Something else to think about with respect to headers.... they are welded up pieces of tubeing and flanges stuffed into a box.... shipped to a warehouse on a truck and handled by the mfg.. the shipping company...the warehouse... put on a shelf.... pulled off a shelf and shipped to a store or machine shop or whatever... set on a shelf or floor and then maybe they go to the customer... who many times never bothers to read the instructions...... It always amazes me when a set of headers actually fits.... Headers are very easily damaged.

( name your brand of carb ) problem..... Gee I put this carb on and it floods.... It's junk....
Question to the cust. Did you cut your fuel line in order to fit a hose over it or otherwise adapt an existing fuel line onto this carb ?... answer is often times yes.... Question.. did you flush that line out before fireing it up ? Answer is often no.... well you likely just put metal shaveings or torn up pieces of rubber right into your needle and seats... and needle and seats dont work well with obstructions in them.... We cleaned out his bowls and readjusted things and presto..90 plus % of the time it fires right up and runs great.... When I was working retail I refused to sell a carb without also selling him a new fuel filter also.... Dirt in a carb is a major problem
especially with older cars with a lot of sediment in their gas tanks..... No carb mfg wants to warrenty their carbs due to dirt in their bowls due to the customers neglect.

Years ago Crane offered a series of tight lashed solid lifter cams FHI lobes.... Flat tappet High Intensity...This was back in the 1980's...Ran great and had great power.... but Crane pulled them from their catalogs.... They felt they were too aggressive...So after only a couple years they were gone.

I could go on for hours... but for the vast majority of manufactures I have dealt with... and it's alot of them.... the vast majority really will try to fix a problem once they realize that it is a real problem and not just an isolated insident or instalation error.Sometimes they screwed up and other times it may be a componut they they dont even produce but source from elsewhere that goes wrong... and it can take time to get to the bottom of the problems and fix them.

In some instances a manufacturer may not be aware of a problem and you may need to inform them and other times some find the problem first and fix them.... Some mfgs simply dont care and wont fix anything .... repeatedly...

But the majority do care and will try if a customer will work with them in a reasonable way.

posted 01-28-2005 04:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------